Author Topic: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"  (Read 22234 times)

Offline Endarire

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"I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« on: November 25, 2012, 01:10:22 AM »
Greetings, all!

So many times I've encountered GMs (especially newbie GMs) who get frustrated and sometimes even stop GMing once things become too unwieldy.  It's like they never expected the rules to apply to them, or to have their challenges so easily overcome (or died to, on the other end).  Maybe it's pride or inexperience that says, "That clever or obvious solution shouldn't be allowed!  I want things my way!"

What are your thoughts and theories on why GMs act this way?

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2012, 01:15:40 AM »
Pride might be part of it I think.  As much as people would like to say they're fair and all, deep down there is a little voice that says "I'm a badass and everything I touch should magically work," and when they screw up that voice tends to get more obnoxious in response to things not going as well as they'd like.

Sometimes it's the burden of responsibility and when something unforeseen happens the straw might break the camel's back and bury it.

Offline veekie

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2012, 01:34:42 AM »
Beyond that, there is also when there really is no solution they can think of. It can happen more easily than you think, if you forget about certain spells or the party has optimized attack output. Nothing in the game as written can do what the GM wants so they just invalidate the plot in a single stroke. Of course, customisation, homebrew and just plain fiat can get around that, but not without their own costs.
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Offline Waazraath

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2012, 04:11:45 AM »
Greetings, all!!

So many times I've encountered players (especially old ones) whoe get frustrated and sometimes even stop playing if things don't go the way they expect. It's like they come up with a hundred different obscure rules from even more obscure rulebooks to have their way, and so ruin the plot and the fun. Maybe its pride that says "I want to win no matter what, I want things my way!"

What are your thoughs and theories on why players act this way?



For certainties sake: I'm not saying you're one of those players, Endaire. I just wanted to give another perspective. What I notice is that you put the problem fully with the DM here. In my opinion, a smooth campaign is both the responsibility of the players as well as the DM, and that needs 1) people take into account each other experience as well as 2) good communication between everybody. For example, when an experienced player starts a campagin with a newbee GM, I think it is wise to play a straightforward, simple character and not a focused conjurer / incantatrix / god wizard. Likewise, in any campaign its wise if players, as they gain new abilities, inform the GM about this, that prevents surprises and the ruining of plots, in my experience.

Offline Scottzar

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2012, 05:07:59 AM »
Greetings, all!

So many times I've encountered GMs (especially newbie GMs) who get frustrated and sometimes even stop GMing once things become too unwieldy.  It's like they never expected the rules to apply to them, or to have their challenges so easily overcome (or died to, on the other end).  Maybe it's pride or inexperience that says, "That clever or obvious solution shouldn't be allowed!  I want things my way!"

What are your thoughts and theories on why GMs act this way?

Greetings, all!!

So many times I've encountered players (especially old ones) whoe get frustrated and sometimes even stop playing if things don't go the way they expect. It's like they come up with a hundred different obscure rules from even more obscure rulebooks to have their way, and so ruin the plot and the fun. Maybe its pride that says "I want to win no matter what, I want things my way!"

What are your thoughs and theories on why players act this way?

Notice how Endarire sample DM cheats, and disallows player ingenuity, which kills the point of D&D 3.5 and of having players, respectively?
Whereas your sample player(s) follow the rules, and display ingenuity in outplaying the DM.

Notice the difference?

The other thing to note is the expectations placed on the Player and the DM.
Generally, in OP culture which we are talking about because this forum is called Min/Max Boards, the ceiling for player power and options is set and then the most competent possible character is built and played within that framework.
DM's, on the other hand, generally have the opportunity to set this limit, than create appropriate challenges for characters of the power; in creating the limit, the DM can never have an excuse for not being capable of dealing with a particularly high level of player power. After all, they made the campaign for characters that power level.
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Offline Waazraath

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2012, 05:44:23 AM »
@Scottzar, notice how Endaire is indeed talking about newbee GM's, and for him, as an experienced min/maxer, 'clever solutions', indeed, as you mentioned, in a thread on the min/max boards. That raises the question with me if everybody was on the same level when those games started, and wether this newbee GM's are familiair with the OP culture you talk about.

In my experience, newbee GM's don't have a clue about high optimization and to the different kind of play that leads to. So they don't have an oportunity to set a ceiling and have extreme difficulties in running a game if people like us use 'standard' optimization tricks.

If you use high op with an inexperienced DM, high chance you're breaking the game, even when you stay within RAW. And since the game is meant to be fun for a group of friends, my point is that 'RAW' is irrelevant if that leads to frustration, and that it's wise to have a good talk in advance about what kind of game you want, what each other knowledge and expectations are. Especially as an experienced min/maxer, you have imo a responsability towards the game balance, since you understand it far better then a newbee GM.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 06:07:57 AM by Waazraath »

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2012, 07:46:59 AM »
Imagine this as one of the "I can't handle you guys!" scenarios:  Before the campaign starts, the DM says to the group, "I've got this idea for an adventure" or even "What would you guys like the next adventure to be about?" and the proposal (somewhat cliche) is involving a group of somewhat experienced (7th level) adventurers going in to rescue a town herded into captivity by a green dragon.  Everyone agrees this is the game they want to play.  The players ask what the rules are, and the DM's response is essentially "Follow Wheaton's Law."  In response, the first player makes a sorcerer who spams (Lesser) Shivering Touch, the 2nd player makes a bard centered around war weaver and the spell Love's Pain, the 3rd comes up with a Master of Shrouds that's controlling more Shadows than there are party members, and the 4th player makes a teleportation/divination specialist that allows the party to bypass any and all parts of the adventure that they see fit.

As I read the OP, the DM that quits in frustration at that point is whose behavior is in the wrong; is that accurate?  Do you believe it to be true?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:48:56 AM by InnaBinder »
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2012, 10:30:52 AM »
^ the players'.  In large part b/c they violated Wheaton's law:  it's an adventure/scenario that revolves around a dragon and they, inter alia, picked the one spell known to ultimately slay dragons.  And, one that is pretty close to utterly broken to boot.  The Master of Shrouds and Love's Pain are also pretty broken, especially at the level of the campaign. 

In short, they exploited the particular set-up of the campaign, which in the spirit of fair play and to make sure they were on board was presented to them ahead of time, and they also picked abilities that were probably outsized for that level as well.  If it were part of a long-running campaign, then it'd be less of a big deal, e.g., Master of Shrouds' firepower smooths out over time, but is at its zenith right around there. 

Also, most times you "bypass the adventure" you're debatably being a dick.  The DM did work putting it together, so unless there's a good reason to do so (usually due to DM dickishness), then it's usually bad form to do that. 

That's my take on it at least. 

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2012, 10:55:57 AM »
Also, most times you "bypass the adventure" you're debatably being a dick.  The DM did work putting it together, so unless there's a good reason to do so (usually due to DM dickishness), then it's usually bad form to do that. 
Minor caveat, sometimes the DM just flat-out fails to account for common spells that utterly bypass their adventure.  It happened to me once.  The PC's were going into a crumbled ruin of a city to investigate a powerful evil spirit shaman//favored soul who was 5 levels above them, and his cult.  Three "fly" spells later, and they bypassed all the traps and hazards between them and the center of the city.

Not saying the players can't be dicks about it, but sometimes DM's fail to account for the spells that alter the world. (Isn't that half the reason E6 was invented?)

Offline Halinn

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2012, 05:21:12 PM »
One of the GMs I've played with sometimes vetoed a clever solution from a player, usually because it would have meant that he would have nothing prepared for continuing the session. In that case he admitted to being outsmarted and gave an experience bonus to the one who came up with that idea. It's not perfect when the GM vetoes something, but when the alternative is stopping the session very early and basically ruining all planning that was made on his behalf, it's quite acceptable.

Offline Bauglir

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2012, 07:38:40 PM »
One of the GMs I've played with sometimes vetoed a clever solution from a player, usually because it would have meant that he would have nothing prepared for continuing the session. In that case he admitted to being outsmarted and gave an experience bonus to the one who came up with that idea. It's not perfect when the GM vetoes something, but when the alternative is stopping the session very early and basically ruining all planning that was made on his behalf, it's quite acceptable.
As far as ways to handle it go, that's far from the most terrible. The DM being up front about what's going on is great, and rewarding the player for doing something impressive goes a long way to demonstrate that it isn't supposed to be a punishment. Assuming everyone involved was okay with it, I'd definitely say this is the way to handle this sort of problem if you can't improvise your way through the rest of the session.

EDIT: Most != least, hooray for being exhausted
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:48:20 PM by Bauglir »

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2012, 07:39:56 PM »
the worlds described in the rules of d&d are explicitly high magic, high fantasy, heroic adventuring worlds. (with the exception of the birthright setting, for one, which explicitly takes place in a lower magic setting.)

dms who fail to take that into account are not playing the game as described or by the rules given.

now everyone forgets a thing or two, a time and again; i'm not including you in the above comment.


having said that, many people just don't have the talent, or experience, to run the game correctly. this can be alleviated with practice.  (...and not throwing temper tantrums, whining, and other obnoxious and immature behavior, like giving up.)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:41:27 PM by nijineko »

Offline Endarire

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 09:11:52 PM »
Maybe it's also that GMs expect things to go like in the books and movies and video games they've experienced.  Y'know, the ones where the characters seem to have an automatic motivation to follow the plot and usually pull through despite overwhelming odds.

Overcoming overwhelming odds is easy until the odds happen to you.

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2012, 09:26:07 PM »
Maybe it's also that GMs expect things to go like in the books and movies and video games they've experienced.  Y'know, the ones where the characters seem to have an automatic motivation to follow the plot and usually pull through despite overwhelming odds.

Overcoming overwhelming odds is easy until the odds happen to you.

i think that is an excellent point. and goes hand in hand with proper preparation. ie: reading the rules, understanding them, playing for a while with a good dm in order to see how it works when done right, playing with a bad dm / group at least once to see the other end of the spectrum, and otherwise spending time (be it weeks or months) getting ready to dm, rather than just assuming any of a variety of things and jumping right in without proper preparation.

(dms who jump right in, screw up, and actually learn from their mistakes on a continuing basis rather than performing any of the behaviors tagged negatively (or similar non-listed behaviors) in my previous post may exempt themselves from this post.)

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2012, 09:51:01 PM »
the worlds described in the rules of d&d are explicitly high magic, high fantasy, heroic adventuring worlds. (with the exception of the birthright setting, for one, which explicitly takes place in a lower magic setting.)

dms who fail to take that into account are not playing the game as described or by the rules given.

now everyone forgets a thing or two, a time and again; i'm not including you in the above comment.


having said that, many people just don't have the talent, or experience, to run the game correctly. this can be alleviated with practice.  (...and not throwing temper tantrums, whining, and other obnoxious and immature behavior, like giving up.)
Just as an observation, this reads as very close to saying that some folks way of playing D&D is WrongBadFun.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2012, 10:14:48 PM »
the worlds described in the rules of d&d are explicitly high magic, high fantasy, heroic adventuring worlds. (with the exception of the birthright setting, for one, which explicitly takes place in a lower magic setting.)

dms who fail to take that into account are not playing the game as described or by the rules given.

now everyone forgets a thing or two, a time and again; i'm not including you in the above comment.


having said that, many people just don't have the talent, or experience, to run the game correctly. this can be alleviated with practice.  (...and not throwing temper tantrums, whining, and other obnoxious and immature behavior, like giving up.)
Just as an observation, the OP and Waazraath's reply reads as very close to saying that some folks way of playing D&D is WrongBadFun.

fixed that for you.

besides, i've already covered that in this post. (read the last entry in the post)

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2012, 10:50:29 PM »
the worlds described in the rules of d&d are explicitly high magic, high fantasy, heroic adventuring worlds. (with the exception of the birthright setting, for one, which explicitly takes place in a lower magic setting.)

dms who fail to take that into account are not playing the game as described or by the rules given.

now everyone forgets a thing or two, a time and again; i'm not including you in the above comment.


having said that, many people just don't have the talent, or experience, to run the game correctly. this can be alleviated with practice.  (...and not throwing temper tantrums, whining, and other obnoxious and immature behavior, like giving up.)
Just as an observation, the OP and Waazraath's reply reads as very close to saying that some folks way of playing D&D is WrongBadFun.

fixed that for you.

besides, i've already covered that in this post. (read the last entry in the post)
That "fix" isn't actually what I was saying; my original comment was.  Thanks, though.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2012, 01:17:47 AM »
That "fix" isn't actually what I was saying; my original comment was.  Thanks, though.

no problem. the fix is still applicable, however.

and my comment had nothing to do with players and dms who consciously choose as a group to play the game differently, which should have been apparent from the interaction between the op and my post, not to mention my link; which incidentally invalidates your original comment entirely.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 01:20:52 AM by nijineko »

Offline LordBlades

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2012, 01:35:39 AM »
Greetings, all!

So many times I've encountered GMs (especially newbie GMs) who get frustrated and sometimes even stop GMing once things become too unwieldy.  It's like they never expected the rules to apply to them, or to have their challenges so easily overcome (or died to, on the other end).  Maybe it's pride or inexperience that says, "That clever or obvious solution shouldn't be allowed!  I want things my way!"

What are your thoughts and theories on why GMs act this way?

From my experience, this also happens when a GM puts too much weight on the storytelling part of D&D compared to the interactiveness of the game. He's there to tell a story, and he feels entitled to do whatever he feels like to prevent the players from messing with it (this usually means behave in any other way than expected, even if that's something as simple as wanting to buy a flying mount instead of walking through the forest of awesome encounters).


Now, making mistakes is perfectly human(moreso given how much a DM has on his plate), and forgetting something a player can do, especially if it's a circumstantial ability, is bound to happen sooner or later. However, protecting your storyline at the expense of the players' ability to meaningfully affect the world  isn't always the most fortunate idea

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2012, 01:55:28 AM »
Greetings, all!

So many times I've encountered GMs (especially newbie GMs) who get frustrated and sometimes even stop GMing once things become too unwieldy.  It's like they never expected the rules to apply to them, or to have their challenges so easily overcome (or died to, on the other end).  Maybe it's pride or inexperience that says, "That clever or obvious solution shouldn't be allowed!  I want things my way!"

What are your thoughts and theories on why GMs act this way?

From my experience, this also happens when a GM puts too much weight on the storytelling part of D&D compared to the interactiveness of the game. He's there to tell a story, and he feels entitled to do whatever he feels like to prevent the players from messing with it (this usually means behave in any other way than expected, even if that's something as simple as wanting to buy a flying mount instead of walking through the forest of awesome encounters).


Now, making mistakes is perfectly human(moreso given how much a DM has on his plate), and forgetting something a player can do, especially if it's a circumstantial ability, is bound to happen sooner or later. However, protecting your storyline at the expense of the players' ability to meaningfully affect the world  isn't always the most fortunate idea

amen. rule of yes.