Author Topic: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers  (Read 20030 times)

Offline HCL

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Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« on: November 30, 2011, 12:30:11 PM »
Reposting this from BG:

Anarchic Initiate (Complete Psion)
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Anima Mage (Tome of Magic)
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Champion of Gwynharwyf (BoED)
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Hulking Hurler (Complete Warrior)
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Planar Sheperd (Faiths of Ebberron)
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Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine)
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Runescarred Berserker (Unnapproachable East)
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Ur-priest (BoVD and Complete Divine)
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Soul Eater- (BoVD)
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Void Disciple - bizarre signature ability that's ambiguous but potentially game-breaking. (CDiv)
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Sentinel of Bharrai - gives your Wizard some Druid awesomeness with full Wiz casting progression (BoED)
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Soulbow - saving the Soulknife since 2006 (CPsi)
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Thrallherd (EPH)
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Incantatrix
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Offline HCL

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 12:30:43 PM »
Tainted Scholar (heroes of horror)
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Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone)
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Disciple of Dispater: BoVD
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Dweomerkeeper: CD
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Emissaries of Barachiel: BoED
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Halruan Elder: Shining South
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Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil: Complete Adventurer
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Legendary Captain: Stormwrack
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Moonspeaker (Nondruid Entry): Races of Eberron
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Sacred Exorcist (Noncleric Entry): CD
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« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 06:38:32 PM by HCL »

Offline HCL

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 12:37:58 PM »
Sublime Chord: Complete Arcane
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Teflammar Shadowlord: Unapproachable East
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Thrall of Juiblex: BoVD
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Walker in the Waste (Cleric Entry or favored soul entry?) : Sandstorm
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Warshaper (Noncaster Entry): Complete Warrior
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War Hulk: Miniatures Handbook
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Slayer (Psion entry, for psychic warriors only +1): SRD
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« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 12:19:39 PM by HCL »

Offline HCL

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 12:38:10 PM »
Also Reserved

Offline HCL

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2011, 12:38:27 PM »
Just one more reservation

Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2011, 01:44:58 PM »
I'm not actually that impressed with the class features of the anarchic initiate. Sure it's full manifesting, and better than psion overall, but I'd much rather go for a dip for chaotic surge and then head to another PrC.

But that's just me.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2011, 01:58:29 PM »
I'm not actually that impressed with the class features of the anarchic initiate. Sure it's full manifesting, and better than psion overall, but I'd much rather go for a dip for chaotic surge and then head to another PrC.

But that's just me.

I'm inclined to agree. The improved manifesting is nice and all, but the rest of the class is underwhelming. The planar rift thing is cool and all, but 1/day sucks.
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Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 04:57:43 PM »
I'm not actually that impressed with the class features of the anarchic initiate. Sure it's full manifesting, and better than psion overall, but I'd much rather go for a dip for chaotic surge and then head to another PrC.

But that's just me.

I'm inclined to agree. The improved manifesting is nice and all, but the rest of the class is underwhelming. The planar rift thing is cool and all, but 1/day sucks.
Basically, full manifesting and chaotic surge are awesome (and worth the +2 just for that), but otherwise, meh.

Offline Bastian

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2011, 08:10:29 PM »
So the workhorse of this class is using Extended Silent Heightened Image spells to spontaneously cast conjurations and evocations. Or, you could of course use it ot make illusions. This can be way more powerful than your standard Conjurer/Evoker if you are creative with it.
This should say Extended Heightened Silent Image. What you have there means you are using Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, and Silent Spell on "Image spells."

Offline Nachofan99

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 08:29:55 PM »
How is Runescarred Berserker +2?  Just doesn't strike me as right at all.  Is there something absurdly silly you can do with the runescars?

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 10:33:22 PM »
It's +2 compared to its intended entry.  It could take a standard (as in tier 5 without ACFs) barbarian up to tier 3 with the spells it grants.  The class only progresses to 5th level spells, but it has certain gems like Righteous Might, Freedom of Movement, and Heal at lower-than-normal levels.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 10:38:03 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 11:35:16 PM »
It's +2 compared to its intended entry.  It could take a standard (as in tier 5 without ACFs) barbarian up to tier 3 with the spells it grants.  The class only progresses to 5th level spells, but it has certain gems like Righteous Might, Freedom of Movement, and Heal at lower-than-normal levels.

5th level spells is usually good enough, seeing as that's enough to get the Duskblade up to Tier 3.
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Offline Nachofan99

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 11:43:10 PM »
So Shenanigans.

I did not realize you could cherry pick *any* spells from *any* lists to put into your runescars.  Still, seems underwhelming.

A Barbarian with full levels of RSB is going to be as "versatile" and "effective" as: Dread Necro, Beguiler, Bard, Factotum and even PsyWar?  I just don't think so.  But I can see it being T4++.  So I guess.

Wonder if anyone has any real game table experience with it?

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 11:47:27 PM »
So Shenanigans.

I did not realize you could cherry pick *any* spells from *any* lists to put into your runescars.  Still, seems underwhelming.

A Barbarian with full levels of RSB is going to be as "versatile" and "effective" as: Dread Necro, Beguiler, Bard, Factotum and even PsyWar?  I just don't think so.  But I can see it being T4++.  So I guess.

Wonder if anyone has any real game table experience with it?

It will be about as efficient as a Duskblade if you replace the Arcane Channeling with a significantly less narrow spell list.
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Offline Aliek

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2011, 04:15:18 AM »
Something I don't really get is why Halruuan Elder is considered an up 2 PrC while Red Wizard/Hathran are just up 1. Their main power would be circle magic, which each one of them can use to about the same effect, other than a red wizard with circle magic simulacrums, but that'd be mostly a little bit better only.

Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 12:43:34 AM »
Something I don't really get is why Halruuan Elder is considered an up 2 PrC while Red Wizard/Hathran are just up 1. Their main power would be circle magic, which each one of them can use to about the same effect, other than a red wizard with circle magic simulacrums, but that'd be mostly a little bit better only.

All three should be up 2.  My Red Wizard officially won the TBoS challenge, and Hathran's can also cast spontaneously.  Each has additional perks to go with their circle magic, depending on if you like CL/DC boosters, free metamagic, or spontaneous Vancian casters (though of the three, the Elder's are the hardest to mimic with other things).

Offline lieronet

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2014, 12:58:28 PM »
Necropoooooooooooooooooost!

Telflammar Shadowlord: What Shadowdancer always wanted to be
Logical entry - tricky. Rogue x/totemist 2, primarily. Swordsages/Ruby Knight Vindicators if the DM is kind. Someone else write this part up.

Pros: SHADOW POUNCE. Can't overstate it. Pounce on steroids. With swift action teles (high level Swordsage, Totemist 2 dip), you get a move + standard in addition to a full-round that is going to do some major hurt.

Short but insane spell list. Arcane casters, so they can use Eternal Wands. A solid selection of spells like Haste, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Mislead, Darkbolt, Mislead, the list goes on. Only thing it's missing is a second Divination spell, to immediately qualify for Unseen Seer.

A handful of cool class abilities. Free Blur in low light, shadow stride, a free 1/day shadow walk, a free cheat death, free super darkvision 60'.

UMD as a class skill, opening up some cool stuff.

Cons: Rough entry requirements. Spring Attack feat tree plus Blind-Fight is a heavy feat tax.

Iffy chassis. d6 hit die, 3/4 BAB, and 4 skills/level. Cast on Int though, so it's not all bad.

Overall: Adds a ton of options to a straight Rogue. Solves their positioning issues with applying SA, adds a bit of survivability, and adds some very useful spells. Low +2/high +1 for sure, this class is bonkers good.

Warshaper:
Logical entry - Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms, Changeling Monk/X.

Pros: Increased size on Natural Weapons. Free 5' reach. Free +4 to Str and Con. Free Fast Healing 2. Not +2 material for a Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms (5' reach does not a T1 make), but definitely +2 for a Monk entry.

Cons: Low skills, 3/4 BAB.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 01:08:34 PM by lieronet »
What would you think if I sang out of tune?

Offline HCL

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2014, 06:42:05 PM »
Necropoooooooooooooooooost!

Telflammar Shadowlord: What Shadowdancer always wanted to be
Logical entry - tricky. Rogue x/totemist 2, primarily. Swordsages/Ruby Knight Vindicators if the DM is kind. Someone else write this part up.

Pros: SHADOW POUNCE. Can't overstate it. Pounce on steroids. With swift action teles (high level Swordsage, Totemist 2 dip), you get a move + standard in addition to a full-round that is going to do some major hurt.

Short but insane spell list. Arcane casters, so they can use Eternal Wands. A solid selection of spells like Haste, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Mislead, Darkbolt, Mislead, the list goes on. Only thing it's missing is a second Divination spell, to immediately qualify for Unseen Seer.

A handful of cool class abilities. Free Blur in low light, shadow stride, a free 1/day shadow walk, a free cheat death, free super darkvision 60'.

UMD as a class skill, opening up some cool stuff.

Cons: Rough entry requirements. Spring Attack feat tree plus Blind-Fight is a heavy feat tax.

Iffy chassis. d6 hit die, 3/4 BAB, and 4 skills/level. Cast on Int though, so it's not all bad.

Overall: Adds a ton of options to a straight Rogue. Solves their positioning issues with applying SA, adds a bit of survivability, and adds some very useful spells. Low +2/high +1 for sure, this class is bonkers good.

Warshaper:
Logical entry - Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms, Changeling Monk/X.

Pros: Increased size on Natural Weapons. Free 5' reach. Free +4 to Str and Con. Free Fast Healing 2. Not +2 material for a Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms (5' reach does not a T1 make), but definitely +2 for a Monk entry.

Cons: Low skills, 3/4 BAB.

Thanks dude, I added it in

Offline lieronet

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2014, 11:43:29 PM »
You mixed in my Warshaper writeup with the TFS writeup :L
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Offline HCL

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Re: Why up 2 Tier Prestige Classes are up 2 tiers
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2014, 12:20:30 PM »
You mixed in my Warshaper writeup with the TFS writeup :L

Yarrr, it be fixed