Author Topic: Schism and delay actions  (Read 3416 times)

Offline Soft Insanity

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Schism and delay actions
« on: August 16, 2012, 01:50:10 AM »
http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/schism

and

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm

Has come up in a game with a player delaying his "mental" action to act when the NPCs act.  I maintain to the DM that this is an improper use of the power since a "mental action" shouldn't serve to qualify for a delay to begin with.  So, who is right and why?

I maintain that if you were able to delay, the power would have a clause indicating that and the clause would also say the new standard action gained must also fall into the "mental action" restriction.

Offline AfterCrescent

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 01:57:31 AM »
Delay states "you take no action" and move your initiative down. Since the second mind is only allowed a standard action and acts on your initiative, not its own, it can't move the initiative down and would require the rest of you to 'take no action'.  You're still just one person, even if you have two minds.

Also, you can't delay to act when the NPCs act. You can delay to just before or just after, but not during. I could see the second mind being allowed to ready an action, but he'd have to specify the conditions as usual.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 09:47:41 AM »
I'm away from my books but isn't Synchronicity exactly what the player is looking for?

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 10:49:59 AM »
Delay states "you take no action" and move your initiative down. Since the second mind is only allowed a standard action and acts on your initiative, not its own, it can't move the initiative down and would require the rest of you to 'take no action'.  You're still just one person, even if you have two minds.

Also, you can't delay to act when the NPCs act. You can delay to just before or just after, but not during. I could see the second mind being allowed to ready an action, but he'd have to specify the conditions as usual.

I don't think this is correct.

The schism'd mind is considered separate in all ways, thus it can delay or ready an action.  Nowhere in the schism power does it say that the mind MUST act at the same time as you, or only on your initiative count.   It says that its FIRST action is on your turn and on your initiative, it doesn't say you can't delay that first action or any subsequent actions indefinately for all the power cares.  If it were the way you say, it would have to "pass" not delay, and passing is actually not an option, you HAVE to either delay, ready or take your action. 

Readying is certainly within the purview, you can ready as a standard action, and that's exactly the action type that the schism'd mind gets. 

The consequences of either of the above actions would mean that the schism'd mind would now act at a different initiative than your main mind.  And that seems to be ok since it specifies that they are separate and distinct right in the power.
So I don't see anything wrong by RAW or even RAI, with delay or ready.

@unbeliever, Synchronicity is a good suggestion and certainly RAW viable, but I'm not sure this is what the OP is looking for.  You use your schism'd minds psionic focus to manifest linked power synchronicity with synchronicity.   This nets you an additional standard action next turn.  But this only works at higher level and only gets you one turn with 3 actions, which lets you nova, but the OP is looking for a way to get a delayed action, and while you can do this with synch, its not a constant- and I believe it would delay your main mind to the initiative count; no matter which action you chose to delay with. 

edit: fixed "spell" ref  to "power"
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 11:12:27 AM by darqueseid »

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 11:07:36 AM »
The schism'd mind is considered separate in all ways, thus it can delay or ready an action.  *snip* It says that its FIRST action is on your turn and on your initiative, it doesn't say you can't delay that first action or any subsequent actions indefinately for all the spell power cares. 
This +1

Also:
Quote from: Schism
Your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body.
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Offline AfterCrescent

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 04:44:38 PM »
If it were the way you say, it would have to "pass" not delay, and passing is actually not an option, you HAVE to either delay, ready or take your action.
You're right. I retract my previous stance. Since 'passing' is technically delaying until your initiative on the next count, yeah, I agree that the second mind should be able to delay.

He still can't delay to act when the NPCs act, but he can delay to act right after them, if he prefers. It sounds like he wants to interrupt their actions, and that's a readied action. :)
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Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 08:15:59 PM »
so can you "ready" your mental action then?

I think you guys are applying too much to the mental action.  It's a defined standard action and as such should not be treated in any way other than it is indicated in the power.

Offline AfterCrescent

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 08:52:21 PM »
so can you "ready" your mental action then?

I think you guys are applying too much to the mental action.  It's a defined standard action and as such should not be treated in any way other than it is indicated in the power.
Yes you can ready any action, even a purely mental one as long as it's a standard action cost or less.

As defined, you have a second mind via the power. Just because it can't control physical aspects of the PC doesn't make it anything less. Otherwise you'd have to argue that it can't manifest a swift action power, since that's not a 'standard action.'  But of course it can. Granted, it can't manifest a swift power and manifest a standard action power, but it could do either or, at its leisure. :P

Think of it like summoning a zombie.  Except your second mind can, of course, think. If you summon a zombie, it can only move or attack each round. No full-round things for it. But if there are no enemies to attack, it's just going to stand there, i.e. delay. So your second mind can do the same.  Surely you're not trying to make this power weaker than Summon Undead I? ;)
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 12:14:39 AM »
Actually, I don't think it can use a swift action power. It only gets a single standard action per round, and there are no rules on using "greater" actions to use abilities that require "lesser" ones (like using a standard action to use a swift action ability).

I totally agree that it could use either the delay or ready actions, though.
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Offline AfterCrescent

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 03:56:13 AM »
Well you can always trade in a standard action for a move action, per the PHB. I seem to recall a rule that you can always trade greater actions for lesser ones, but I can't seem to find it. I'll edit this if I come across it.

For what it's worth, Temporal Acceleration specifically references the second mind of schism being able to manifest this power. So either you get a swift action with your second mind, can trade a standard for swift, or Temporal Acceleration is a loopy power that breaks the rule.

Edit:  Rules Compendium states you may ready a standard, move, swift, or free action. Readying is a standard action.

While you can technically argue that you are not allowed to trade standard actions for swift actions, you can totally ready a swift action to go off the next time you blink and then blink as a free action. :P  It's effectively the same thing, just saving a stupid step of by-law-technicality.  :)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 04:02:19 AM by AfterCrescent »
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Offline darqueseid

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 12:11:42 PM »
 I'm not sure your schism'd mind can blink.  its not a purely mental action is it?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Schism and delay actions
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 12:13:42 PM »
Well you can always trade in a standard action for a move action, per the PHB. I seem to recall a rule that you can always trade greater actions for lesser ones, but I can't seem to find it. I'll edit this if I come across it.

For what it's worth, Temporal Acceleration specifically references the second mind of schism being able to manifest this power. So either you get a swift action with your second mind, can trade a standard for swift, or Temporal Acceleration is a loopy power that breaks the rule.

Edit:  Rules Compendium states you may ready a standard, move, swift, or free action. Readying is a standard action.

While you can technically argue that you are not allowed to trade standard actions for swift actions, you can totally ready a swift action to go off the next time you blink and then blink as a free action. :P  It's effectively the same thing, just saving a stupid step of by-law-technicality.  :)
Really interesting. OK, that changes things quite a bit. Thanks!
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