Author Topic: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting  (Read 200166 times)

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #960 on: March 31, 2016, 09:58:26 AM »
I feel like I should know what a meseta is, also lol on candy crush.

Meseta is PS money. Basically translated to 1 Meseta = 1 Gp

Except GPs are round, and meseta are octogonal.  :P
Kami darou ga akuma darou ga, ore no michi ni tateru mono NASHI!!

Give me internets. Now.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #961 on: March 31, 2016, 10:12:22 AM »
At least they're not pyramids.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #962 on: March 31, 2016, 11:36:38 AM »
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At least they're not pyramids.
Caltrop moneys!

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #963 on: March 31, 2016, 12:15:13 PM »
I'd think not; the idea of those things is to avoid dipping.
Really? I always thought it was to play as the monsters you can't, either because their LA is so ridiculous it's impossible to feasible use or because it was never intended for PCs.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #964 on: March 31, 2016, 12:24:17 PM »
I'd think not; the idea of those things is to avoid dipping.
Really? I always thought it was to play as the monsters you can't, either because their LA is so ridiculous it's impossible to feasible use or because it was never intended for PCs.

Epic-levelled monsters with features building on earlier features suggest that the class is meant to be complete enough that dipping is unnecessary or a bad idea. They're definitely not what should be first considered for general guidelines that might affect PrC access.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 12:26:02 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #965 on: March 31, 2016, 03:23:33 PM »
The Gloom Class is a base monster class and it doesn't build on "earlier features". Anyway you missed the point and Ols already covered it. He went where I figured he'd go it's just his text/examples don't line up with the same concept. Like "an arcane class" vs "an arcane base class" was an original point and turned down.

Post that he threw up the defense that it's covered in the FAQ which says a Mind Flayers don't cast as X but gain special multiclass benefits which are expressly ignored if the PrC grants spellcasting. The problem is, the Mind Flayer has no quote on quote "multiclass bonus." It purely gets SLAs and such, it's synergy is like Fast Tentacles lets you attack with all his Tentacles and cast a Spell in the same Full-Action. This is nothing like the actual multiclass benefit that a Beholder gives. Each level of Beholder advances any other another base arcane casting class. The example called out should be Beholder or something like it but because it's not it sets an entirely different tone and radically changes the message. IE a Mindflayer's Fast Tentacles cannot be used with the PrC Solider of Light's Spellcasting.

It's just stuff that gets fixed in editing or if it were WotC published end up spewing ten thousand arguments online for fifteen years.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #966 on: March 31, 2016, 03:30:59 PM »
"Earlier features" meaning "earlier features in the same class". And that, well, if something in a 20+ level class doesn't let you qualify for a PrC it's not really a loss.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #967 on: April 01, 2016, 01:32:34 AM »
The Gloom Class is a base monster class and it doesn't build on "earlier features". Anyway you missed the point and Ols already covered it. He went where I figured he'd go it's just his text/examples don't line up with the same concept. Like "an arcane class" vs "an arcane base class" was an original point and turned down.

Post that he threw up the defense that it's covered in the FAQ which says a Mind Flayers don't cast as X but gain special multiclass benefits which are expressly ignored if the PrC grants spellcasting. The problem is, the Mind Flayer has no quote on quote "multiclass bonus." It purely gets SLAs and such, it's synergy is like Fast Tentacles lets you attack with all his Tentacles and cast a Spell in the same Full-Action. This is nothing like the actual multiclass benefit that a Beholder gives. Each level of Beholder advances any other another base arcane casting class. The example called out should be Beholder or something like it but because it's not it sets an entirely different tone and radically changes the message. IE a Mindflayer's Fast Tentacles cannot be used with the PrC Solider of Light's Spellcasting.

It's just stuff that gets fixed in editing or if it were WotC published end up spewing ten thousand arguments online for fifteen years.

The mind flayer class has caster multi class synergy under telepathy. It was the first monster class to have it. That is why it is used in the FAQ example.

EDIT: Just in case you miss it again.

Telepathy:a mind flayer gains telepathy with a range of 10 feet for each HD he possesses. . A mind flayer who multiclasses for an arcane/psionic class can count his Mind Flayer levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL/ML and for the purposes of learning new spells/powers and getting new spell slots/power points. So for example, a Mind Flayer 3 who took 1 level of sorcerer could choose to have CL 4, get 3 2nd level spell slots, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd level spell known and 1 0th level spell known. He wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorcerer 3 however.  He would get the familiar ability, but mind flayer levels wouldn't count for it.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 03:23:34 AM by oslecamo »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #968 on: April 01, 2016, 10:38:21 AM »
EDIT: Just in case you miss it again.
I did, what now like four freaking times.  :banghead

Maybe I'm losing more sleep than I thought.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #969 on: April 08, 2016, 01:47:10 AM »
Sorry, been very busy over the last week. I was preparing a new update when I noticed some incosistencies:
1-Baha's ghost minion seems able to interact with material things through the ghostly grasp feat. However I don't see how that would allow him to turn other stuff incorporeal. As per ghostly grasp itself, the ghost can interact with other stuff as if himself was corporeal. Relevant discussion in this forums.

2-The ghost class says the ghost takes the looks and shape of its mortal remains. Baldy's remains are a bunch of dust and bone bits. Something doesn't fit here.

3-When Baha says she's returning to the facility, do you mean the one where the esper had been? Since Mao mentions Baha is trying to run away, but returning to the facility that has no other exit would be kinda the opposite of that.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #970 on: April 08, 2016, 04:10:05 PM »
Quote
Since Mao mentions Baha is trying to run away, but returning to the facility that has no other exit would be kinda the opposite of that.
Now that you mention it, I thought he mentioned that he walked back to some other place since we are already in the lure-facility. Just not in the room where we took Aryk for the scans.
If he's going back to the trap-room after being asked: "Are you done? Ready to answer the questions, at last? More elaborate evasiveness?", I'd instead change the last part to:

<<Baha just threatened to sully our reputation. Perhaps framing us as users of dark magics. He also seems dangerously mentally unstable, though that may be teenage puberty or something similar. Likely indeed guilty of the charge either way. Orders?>>
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 04:16:13 PM by Anomander »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #971 on: April 10, 2016, 01:01:21 PM »
However I don't see how that would allow him to turn other stuff incorporeal.
He isn't turning anyone Incorporeal. He stuffs a fully corporeal object into his Handysack where they sit technically in a pocket on the Astral Plane and carries the Incorporeal Handysack through the wall.

Per LM/MM3, "Magic items possessed by an incorporeal creature work normally with respect to their effects on the creature or on another target". So an Incorporeal Handysack works just fine with corporeal creatures & targets, which I take to mean items included but that's not even in question (and solvable by using a creature to carry them in). Anyway, per RC Slow Suffocation a Medium creature in 10cuft has six hours of air time before taking damage, the Handysack has 80% of that figure and I covered my rear and mention submarine'ing things to extend the figure out even more.

As for it's looks. Well I originally thought his front half should look like Deadpool from an extreme flash fire but ended up going with a pile of dust because there is way to much Deadpool on the Internet. I can revamp to w/e. Anything below his nipple line is totally unneeded so I have plenty of space to go horrific without producing the end result of Deadpool.

And for where Baha is going. He going in the direction of plot advancement! I'm pretty sure we're outside and there is a Familiar to track down. Plus later on I can try a Detect Magic (and maybe identify) on the monolith assuming Anomander wants to do more than provoke PvP out of people.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 01:04:56 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Anomander

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #972 on: April 10, 2016, 02:13:29 PM »
Quote
And for where Baha is going. He going in the direction of plot advancement! I'm pretty sure we're outside and there is a Familiar to track down. Plus later on I can try a Detect Magic (and maybe identify) on the monolith
Mao has an appointment with Aryk's clone, due as soon as Baha confesses or is finishing being dealt with.
Then there are many ways to go about it for the monolith and the AA has other Espers on the list to deal with in the background.
She also already arranged for the possibility to reanimate Anna for questioning with Elle.
Sending it back on Ragol is probably out of the question until they get more information on the situation. She could drop it back where it was with the thought they can always fetch it back later if needed though with the high possibility of a spy among them it is possible the monolith would be taken off by their enemies if she does.
Plot advancement was also the reason I had us fetch the monolith instead of wandering off to some spa resort.

Plot advancement is ready to go as soon as Baha is done with the AA betrayal nonsense. Or whatever Maia decides.

Quote
assuming Anomander wants to do more than provoke PvP out of people.
Says the betrayer. If you wanted to start trouble between PCs without them knowing you should have been more subtle about it. Of course it would have been a lot simpler to actually not do things that would lead to PC confrontations.
I've prepared the plot advancement. So yes, I want to do all those other stuff I've got going. Too bad there's a traitor delaying things with constant evasiveness and stubbornly insists on being a problem.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 11:18:29 PM by Anomander »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #973 on: April 10, 2016, 09:19:11 PM »
Mao has an appointment with Aryk's clone, due as soon as Baha confesses or is finishing being dealt with.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that little kicker.

Ano's first reaction wasn't scry into the afterlife for Aryk, that came up afterwards as an excuse of justification. Ano's first reaction was to secretly contact the NPCs and order them to privately provide him with his very own clone of Ayrk. And that's kind of the problem with the moral high ground fallacy. I mean besides it a fallacy and all, and overlooking the fact it takes two to argue, and the associated ad hominem attacks, and so on. Typically the person calling it should avoid any and all mirrors. Like including Ano's actions the argument reboils down to Mao should selfishless have an "Aryk" and Baha isn't allowed one.  :rolleyes
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 10:14:41 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #974 on: April 10, 2016, 09:52:05 PM »
However I don't see how that would allow him to turn other stuff incorporeal.
He isn't turning anyone Incorporeal. He stuffs a fully corporeal object into his Handysack where they sit technically in a pocket on the Astral Plane and carries the Incorporeal Handysack through the wall.

Per LM/MM3, "Magic items possessed by an incorporeal creature work normally with respect to their effects on the creature or on another target". So an Incorporeal Handysack works just fine with corporeal creatures & targets, which I take to mean items included but that's not even in question (and solvable by using a creature to carry them in). Anyway, per RC Slow Suffocation a Medium creature in 10cuft has six hours of air time before taking damage, the Handysack has 80% of that figure and I covered my rear and mention submarine'ing things to extend the figure out even more.

As for it's looks. Well I originally thought his front half should look like Deadpool from an extreme flash fire but ended up going with a pile of dust because there is way to much Deadpool on the Internet. I can revamp to w/e. Anything below his nipple line is totally unneeded so I have plenty of space to go horrific without producing the end result of Deadpool.
Fair enough with stuffing Aryk inside the haversack.

But the ghost's own body cannot be turned incorporeal as per the ghost class itself, and here I clarify that the ghost's body needs to remain in the same plane so no private astral plane pockets while on the material plane.

Basically Baldy can carry Arik though obstacles, but not his own body. I'm assuming that the body remains safely inside Bahamut and Baldy just hangs nearby, correct?

And for where Baha is going. He going in the direction of plot advancement! I'm pretty sure we're outside and there is a Familiar to track down.
You'll need to be a bit more specific than that. Are you going towards the place where the not-mag was last spotted?

Offline Anomander

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #975 on: April 10, 2016, 10:01:53 PM »
Quote
Ano's first reaction wasn't scry into the afterlife for Aryk, that came up afterwards as an excuse of justification. Ano's first reaction was to secretly contact the NPCs and order them to privately provide him with his very own clone of Ayrk.
Mao still believes Aryk is dead. The cloning process was supposed to be complete some 2minutes something if I remember well following the moment she requested it. Including or not the time it would take to send the limb to the appropriate lab. Also, Mao wanted Aryk alive to begin with so her getting killed was naturally going to be answered with a clone to bring her back to life. Not her fault if a clone is being made while the original still lives.

Quote
And that's kind of the problem with the moral high ground fallacy.
Accusing people of trying to PVP when you're doing PvP actions yourself seems pretty relevant.
You keep calling out fallacies but they don't apply. All your arguments are empty. You've been trying to use the moral high ground from the get go since you got nothing relevant to say beyond empty accusations ever since you decided to turn this into a dispute right then.

Quote
ad hominem attacks
Hypocrisy at its finest. You keep making personal attacks and going nuts about how everyone is out to get at you personally. You accused me of having personal motives beyond just responding to your constant clumsiness in-game so don't be surprised if your own personality is questioned.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 10:46:10 PM by Anomander »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #976 on: April 10, 2016, 11:07:52 PM »
Basically Baldy can carry Arik though obstacles, but not his own body. I'm assuming that the body remains safely inside Bahamut and Baldy just hangs nearby, correct?
I didn't see the Q&A on the bag concept, but same plane is pretty limiting seeing how an unmanifested ghost is on the Ethereal Plane while his body is probably supposed to be on the Materiel Plane. While manifested he only "partially" enters the Material Plane as well according to your text, so if the goal is same plane I need to Planeshift his body to the Ethereal Plane.

And I suppose it's an ok goal. Pros is that he can simply carry the corpse him self since corpses become items and also when manifesting the manifestation it's self (not ghostly grasp) turns him and his gear Incorporeal. For good measure his "coffin" will need to be packed in an obdurium shell. I'll have to run some numbers to see what he can afford which leads to the con that you can't demanifest until you can afford a to send your body to the same plane a ghost normally resides on.

You'll need to be a bit more specific than that. Are you going towards the place where the not-mag was last spotted?
What's a not-mag? If it's the familiar, no I don't need be in the same (trapped) room. Ano's TPK desires would be waaaaaaaaayyyy to happy with that. Just outside the door to see if the 920ft Locate Creature spell will ping it, and on no return probably track down the closet thing to a mage's guild since Arcane Pilots get Greater Scrying (8th lvl) not Scrying (4th lvl) or both.

To be honest I want to follow up on the hint about popping some spells on the monolith but Anomander has taken over the AA, defining what they can/can't and will/won't do. And as you see from his post
Then there are many ways to go about it for the monolith once the AA has other Espers on the list to deal with.
He isn't going to let anyone do that until he's sufficiently derailed things enough to satisfy him.  :-\

Offline Anomander

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #977 on: April 10, 2016, 11:23:06 PM »
Quote
To be honest I want to follow up on the hint about popping some spells on the monolith but Anomander has taken over the AA, defining what they can/can't and will/won't do. And as you see from his post
Bad sentence structure. Fixed.
The Espers being hunted was something Maia stressed as important and she already manifested that she was going to thoroughly deal with them. We won't need to involve ourselves with the capture of the others if we have our answers off the one we got.

I think Aryk said Baha could get more details by checking the site itself the monolith was in. Not the monolith itself.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #978 on: April 11, 2016, 12:46:13 AM »
Basically Baldy can carry Arik though obstacles, but not his own body. I'm assuming that the body remains safely inside Bahamut and Baldy just hangs nearby, correct?
I didn't see the Q&A on the bag concept, but same plane is pretty limiting seeing how an unmanifested ghost is on the Ethereal Plane while his body is probably supposed to be on the Materiel Plane. While manifested he only "partially" enters the Material Plane as well according to your text, so if the goal is same plane I need to Planeshift his body to the Ethereal Plane.

And I suppose it's an ok goal. Pros is that he can simply carry the corpse him self since corpses become items and also when manifesting the manifestation it's self (not ghostly grasp) turns him and his gear Incorporeal.

Quote from: ghost class
A manifested ghost can carry its own body, assuming it has enough strenght, but this doesn't turn the body itself incorporeal. Not even with the ghostly grasp feat can a ghost turn its own body incorporeal.

The ghost's body specifically is never incorporeal. The ghost being in the ethereal plane would suffice because it is "coexistent with the Material Plane", so you can actually measure distances for Grave Bond. But there is no measurable distance between any point in the astral plane and another point in the material plane.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High-End OOC thread II-Party still splitting
« Reply #979 on: April 11, 2016, 05:41:11 AM »
Oh snap did I just see Anomander dismiss a perfectly valid hot spring episode!? How dare ye, sir!

We'll invite Mao next time and force a bikini on you too, no worries ;)