Author Topic: Comic Book Characters & Bullets  (Read 6017 times)

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« on: November 25, 2015, 10:25:58 AM »
One thing that has always bugged me about comics in general is that there is a line between the power levels of characters that never seems to get exploited; on one side you have characters who can take a bullet (Hulk, Thor, Superman, etc.) and on the other side there characters who cannot. So it seems to me (as an outsider to the comic book world) why don't the comic book villains hire fleets of sniper assassins to shoot and kill every single comic hero book who is not bulletproof? Sure, you'll say resources, time, and access are an issue ... I agree. Also, some super heroes that can be killed by a bullet may be nimble enough, hyper-aware enough, or smart enough to avoid such an ambush but there are plenty who are not. And if this tactic fails the first time, just keep sending assassins till it works. 

tl;dr: Why don't comic book villains send an endless parade of sniper-ed assassins to shoot and kill comic book heroes who are not bulletproof?       
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 10:28:15 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline bhu

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 02:15:57 PM »
Because then there wouldn't be a comic.  Same reason as why all the many scientific inventions created almost never work their way out to the public.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2015, 02:34:05 PM »
Because then there wouldn't be a comic.  Same reason as why all the many scientific inventions created almost never work their way out to the public.
Fair enough. But then can I say that in comics with superhero(s) who cannot at least "take a bullet" (and fail to address this in some manner) are necessarily plagued with this conundrum and are in some sense less-than coherent in regards to their own internal verisimilitude? (at least in earth settings around the current time period).   

Offline bhu

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2015, 04:54:48 PM »
It's okay the lack of logic bugs me too

Offline Samwise

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2015, 05:17:23 PM »
Marvel kinda, sorta, addressed that once in one of the Squadron Supreme limited series.

The heroes decided that with their superior technology they could actually fix things: they could use a telepathic conditioning machine to make villains and criminals stop committing crimes; they could just whup on the world and make it end war; they could confiscate all weapons and end general violence; they could put anyone dying into suspended animation until cures could be found (because they couldn't actually create a panacea drug to cure everything); and so on.
Naturally, people hated it.
Including some heroes, who split off and joined the few remaining villains in hiding to stop it.
Leading to a grand battle where, IIRC, a mind-converted-then-freed female villain in love with a hero fighting with the villains killed a hero during the battle in cold blood (as in, the hero was helpless rather than with just a really powerful attack), and the whole battle stopped while everyone angsted over the moral implications of imposing utopia on the world, ultimately deciding to just go back to the status quo ante of heroes fighting villains, locking them up, the villains escaping, and the cycle repeating, while ordinary people starved, fought, died, and committed crimes.

In others words - the writers couldn't handle it, anymore than they could handle Spider-Man killing someone accidentally and retconned the limited series into an alternate universe.

There are of course multiple other factors, not the least being the Comics Code Authority until the publishers gave up on it, where sex and murder were generally forbidden, and, perhaps more importantly, trademark, which requires characters and names to be used regularly or be lost. Having your comic treated like an issue of Playboy and losing rights to a main character because he got offed really works against having a villain read and learn from the Evil Overlord List.

Yes, this is a major suspension of disbelief element in comics. Compared to some others, it really isn't the worse, especially the rehashing of story lines with minor tweaks over and over and over and over again.
I expect that is why many people give up on comics - they realize this has all happened before and they will be paying for it again and just move on.
Consequently, I expect that is also why non-mainstream comics have surged so much - they are better at killing off heroes and villains and just moving along with the story, accepting a series will end after 50-100 issues, and that they can keep their trademarks and copyrights with sufficient trade paperback collections and re-releases.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2015, 11:11:42 AM »
Samwise excellent points. As non-fan boy, I can say that I do in fact like comics and graphic novels up to a point. My outside newbie take is that comics have two big failings:

(1) Story trumps verisimilitude/internal logic too much and in too many ways. I realize that in order to tell a story you must do this to some degree but generally comics do this too much for my own personal taste. aka "the snowpiercer effect" 

(2) They go on and on and on and on and on ... until ideas must either be recycled or the story paints itself into a corner and becomes stupid/boring/ridiculous/tedious/etc. The majority of comics I've seen or read would be much better served with shorter, more limited runs.   
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 11:18:13 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2015, 02:39:38 PM »
So it seems to me (as an outsider to the comic book world) why don't the comic book villains hire fleets of sniper assassins to shoot and kill every single comic hero book who is not bulletproof? Sure, you'll say resources, time, and access are an issue ... I agree. Also, some super heroes that can be killed by a bullet may be nimble enough, hyper-aware enough, or smart enough to avoid such an ambush but there are plenty who are not. And if this tactic fails the first time, just keep sending assassins till it works. 

tl;dr: Why don't comic book villains send an endless parade of sniper-ed assassins to shoot and kill comic book heroes who are not bulletproof?     
You mean like Deathstroke, Deadshot, Bullseye, and Crossbones?  They have tried to kill Batman, other Gotham heroes, and Daredevil like 100 times.  They try and fail.  It's part of the story.  I guess I don't understand what the question here is at all.  It's sort of like asking why the Nazis didn't get the bright idea to shoot Captain America.  Trust me, they tried.   

In a comic book type universe an "ordinary" sniper has no hope against somebody like Batman.  He's just a chump who is about to get his jaw broken.  So, you need some sort of super assassin, like the characters mentioned above.  There are, however, not a readily available infinite supply of super assassins.  Nor are they really willing to work together.  Trying to tell Slade that he's going to just be part of the "first wave." 

Also, what heroes are you thinking of who are both bullet vulnerable but not able to avoid being casually offed by a sniper?  That's got to be the exception since facing dudes with guns is part of the superhero playbook. 

(2) They go on and on and on and on and on ... until ideas must either be recycled or the story paints itself into a corner and becomes stupid/boring/ridiculous/tedious/etc. The majority of comics I've seen or read would be much better served with shorter, more limited runs.   
This is assuredly true.  And, in the process of doing so they become hoary and impenetrable, which I find an utter turnoff despite liking the ideas of superheroes as a storytelling frame.  For what it's worth, I found Invincible, which has a smaller, less complicated world, pretty easy to get into recently. 

Offline Samwise

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2015, 05:56:52 PM »
Samwise excellent points. As non-fan boy, I can say that I do in fact like comics and graphic novels up to a point. My outside newbie take is that comics have two big failings: 

As a retired/semi-insider . . .
I agree completely.
In fact, that is precisely why I gave up on mainstream comics.

I suspect a considerable number of insiders agree as well.

Ultimately it is the nature of the beast in many respects.
I quip about reading Edgar Rice Burroughs. Through 24 Tarzan books, 11 John Carter Books, 7 Pellucidar books, 5 Venus books, and a few others, it is "50 stories, 1 plot, no waiting." They ALL have the same story structure. The proper nouns show only minor variation. The only differences are in the verbs and adjectives, and even those have certain standard combinations that get repeated multiple times.
You can see the same thing in Robert E. Howard and in other pulp authors, and comics are basically an outgrowth of the pulps.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2015, 01:23:57 PM »
So it seems to me (as an outsider to the comic book world) why don't the comic book villains hire fleets of sniper assassins to shoot and kill every single comic hero book who is not bulletproof? Sure, you'll say resources, time, and access are an issue ... I agree. Also, some super heroes that can be killed by a bullet may be nimble enough, hyper-aware enough, or smart enough to avoid such an ambush but there are plenty who are not. And if this tactic fails the first time, just keep sending assassins till it works. 

tl;dr: Why don't comic book villains send an endless parade of sniper-ed assassins to shoot and kill comic book heroes who are not bulletproof?     
You mean like Deathstroke, Deadshot, Bullseye, and Crossbones?  They have tried to kill Batman, other Gotham heroes, and Daredevil like 100 times.  They try and fail.  It's part of the story.  I guess I don't understand what the question here is at all.  It's sort of like asking why the Nazis didn't get the bright idea to shoot Captain America.  Trust me, they tried.   

In a comic book type universe an "ordinary" sniper has no hope against somebody like Batman.  He's just a chump who is about to get his jaw broken.  So, you need some sort of super assassin, like the characters mentioned above.  There are, however, not a readily available infinite supply of super assassins.  Nor are they really willing to work together.  Trying to tell Slade that he's going to just be part of the "first wave." 

Also, what heroes are you thinking of who are both bullet vulnerable but not able to avoid being casually offed by a sniper?  That's got to be the exception since facing dudes with guns is part of the superhero playbook. 
(1) I fully admit that I am a comic book newb. So what you are telling me here is reassuring that at least some comics address this flaw.

(2) Take this list: List of superheroes and villains without superpowers - I suspect that at least 50% could be taken down easily with just a (non-super) highly trained, expertly equipped, human sniper. No?

Peace,
Necro 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 09:56:53 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline bhu

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2015, 08:52:33 PM »
Some of those occupy a questionable place on the list.  Some of them are "at the peak of human ability", which is bullshit speak for all their physical stats being at or just above human maximum.  If it came down to fighting Two Face or Deathstroke, I'd sure as hell pick Two Face.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 09:53:52 PM »
It varies wildly:
a) Some characters basically have plot shield even if they're supposed to be mundane. The kingpin doesn't have superpowers, but he has so much fat/muscle that you can shoot him in the chest and he'll keep coming. Batman once deflected a bullet to the head with his ki inner force. Batman also dodged Darkseid Omega's beams. To have an idea of what that means, superman "I can move between the earth and the sun in seconds" cannot dodge Darkseid's omega beams.
b) Sometimes characters do get shot and die. The Punisher in particular has racked quite a bit of kills (there's a "what if" comic where he goes full bersek and just kills every other hero and villain). DC comics had the "Suicide Squad" where 2nd-3rd rate villains in prison go in suicidical missions for the government in return for freedom, and they often suffer casualities to nameless mooks with guns. However they're often brought back to life next issue/year/decade by magic/science/whatever.
c) Marvel at one point made an alternate universe series called "Ultimate" where everything was grittier, darker and more cynical, and there several named characters get shot and die right away. Somewhat funny in one issue where the villains make a clone cyborg of a super kung -fu master and the "heroes" just pull out machine guns and gun it down.
d) Mundane super-heroes often have super friends. Let's say you do manage to snipe the batman. Congratulations. Now superman, martian manhunter, the flash, and all the other bullet-immune dudes from Justice League will hunt you down to the ends of the earth. Heck, even the Joker will hunt you down for having broken his favorite toy. No, seriously, there's a story where one of the Joker's goons seems to have finally shot the batman dead, and the Joker "thanks" him by throwing the goon in a boiling chemical vat.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 10:00:07 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Samwise

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2015, 10:51:16 PM »
Some of those occupy a questionable place on the list.  Some of them are "at the peak of human ability", which is bullshit speak for . . .

. . . they read the character optimization handbook then suckered their DM into allowing just one third party sourcebook.

 :P

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 09:51:03 AM »
Some characters basically have plot shield even if they're supposed to be mundane. The kingpin doesn't have superpowers, but he has so much fat/muscle that you can shoot him in the chest and he'll keep coming. Batman once deflected a bullet to the head with his ki inner force. Batman also dodged Darkseid Omega's beams. To have an idea of what that means, superman "I can move between the earth and the sun in seconds" cannot dodge Darkseid's omega beams.
That is ridiculous. This is precisely my bugbear with comics. They must have all consulted with Steven Spielberg. Sorry
My emotional response to all that: :shakefist :banghead :fu :pout :lmao :lol :chairhit :facepalm :flame :grave :nonono :teach :drums :shrug :tantrum :surrender
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 10:08:12 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 10:24:15 AM »
Yeah, pretty much. :P

That reminds me however that there's one comic character with significant less plot shield against bullets: the first batgirl, daughter of commissar Gordan. She used to be a mundane hero like Batman, but then she took a bullet to the knee spine, courtesy of the Joker some years ago. It wasn't an epic battle or anything, the Joker just pointed his gun at her and pulled the trigger. She's been in a wheelchair unable to move her lower body ever since (although not completely useless as she became a super computer hacker). Seems like she actively refuses to be healed by magic/SCIENCE, saying it would be unfair to call favors when there's plenty of other people suffering from permanent bullet wounds and don't have super friends to patch them up or super computer bases to pass the time.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 10:27:57 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2015, 11:08:25 AM »
In the Timmverse version of Batman v. Darkseid it's not ridiculous.  Batman agilely dodges the Omega Beams a couple of times, and then interposes some poor sod between him and the beams.  Also, as some DC writers have famously pointed out, speed + predictability isn't the greatest dodging tactic out there. 

One big point here.  We're talking about characters that have been around for the better part of a century, exist in multiple media forms, and have been written by hundreds, if not thousands of people.  There are bound to be some headdesk moments.

I'm going to reiterate what I said earlier.  The whole guys with guns trying to take out "mundane" superheroes thing just is the plot of many of these comics.  Although it's fair to say that comic books tend to overinflate what humans can plausibly do, but so do action flicks and it's a genre conceit.  The sniper situation in the OP is a common conflict.  It's not like these "super normals" casually take them out, any more than Superman "casually" takes out Brainiac or something like that, this just is the plot of the stories. 

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2015, 12:50:30 PM »
In the Timmverse version of Batman v. Darkseid it's not ridiculous. Batman agilely dodges the Omega Beams a couple of times, and then interposes some poor sod between him and the beams.
Why is it not ridiculous? Getting cover behind poor sods makes sense but a normal human dodging energy beams in the first place? I don't see how that's even possible, let alone not ridiculous?   

Also, as some DC writers have famously pointed out, speed + predictability isn't the greatest dodging tactic out there.
I do not understand this, can you unpack it for me? I get that if you are fast but predictability you still may be an easy mark if and only if you can match the speed. But aren't we talking about the ability for mundane heroes to dodge things they don't have the right to dodge being ridiculous; not their inability? 

Peace,
Necro
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 12:57:54 PM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline bhu

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2015, 02:56:32 PM »
You might perchance find Indie comics more to your taste, or perhaps DC's vertigo line.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2015, 04:14:32 PM »
In the Timmverse version of Batman v. Darkseid it's not ridiculous. Batman agilely dodges the Omega Beams a couple of times, and then interposes some poor sod between him and the beams.
Why is it not ridiculous? Getting cover behind poor sods makes sense but a normal human dodging energy beams in the first place? I don't see how that's even possible, let alone not ridiculous?   
Because Darkseid's Omega Beams have never, in the 10+ years of the Timmverse but I also think this is true in the comics as well, been shown as moving particularly fast.  You can see them in transit; they aren't speeding bullets at all.  Indeed, in the Timmverse bullets and other projectiles seem to move quite a bit faster than they do.  And, given that actual physics doesn't have much to say about the rate at which the Omega Effect propagates when fired from a space god's head, I think the writers are free to do with this what they like, provided they're consistent.
 
Also, as some DC writers have famously pointed out, speed + predictability isn't the greatest dodging tactic out there.
I do not understand this, can you unpack it for me? I get that if you are fast but predictability you still may be an easy mark if and only if you can match the speed. But aren't we talking about the ability for mundane heroes to dodge things they don't have the right to dodge being ridiculous; not their inability? 
Famously, Deathstroke sets up the battlefield, predicting where Wally is going to run, and puts his promethium sword right there:  link.  It's worth noting that Deathstroke has known Wally for years and is a master strategist.  Deathstroke is, to be fair, mildly superhuman, but we can all recognize that he is way slower than the Flash. 


There's a sense here that I'm having a hard time articulating and I'm not trying to be dismissive so please don't read it that way.  As I noted above, a huge chunk of comics are simply crap.  But, there's this feeling of, I don't know, that the critiques are based more on a sense of what you imagine is in comics (broadly construed, since I was referencing a cartoon up there) rather than what's actually there.  Like I said, most of it is crap, and there's a ton of bizarro shit in there.  But, the good stuff has at least some internal logic to it. 

I guess I'm trying to say that it's not all crap.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 04:21:49 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2015, 08:55:22 AM »
I guess I'm trying to say that it's not all crap.
Agreed.  :D

I'm not someone who is looking to hate on comics, I'm someone from the outside looking to like comics more than I do but sometimes jarred out of this like by what I perceive as schlock. Most of my friends are comic book fan-boys and they tell me that I don't have the comic book mindset, that I just need to stop being so critical and just enjoy the read. There are lots of things I do like about comics, the cool characters, the cool powers, and the artwork can be just amazing.     
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 08:57:13 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Comic Book Characters & Bullets
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2015, 09:26:00 AM »
I'm not someone who is looking to hate on comics, I'm someone from the outside looking to like comics more than I do but sometimes jarred out of this like by what I perceive as schlock. Most of my friends are comic book fan-boys and they tell me that I don't have the comic book mindset, that I just need to stop being so critical and just enjoy the read. There are lots of things I do like about comics, the cool characters, the cool powers, and the artwork can be just amazing.   
Ah, well, I disagree with your friends to a large degree.  There's a relatively small set of things I'd list as legacy costs and genre conventions.  Things that come to mind is that the target audience is mostly kids, and the fact that over the long years and multiple writers some stupid things have happened to these characters and worlds that you need to politely ignore.  And, I suppose the basic genre conceit that people dress in colorful costumes and punch each other. 

But, I think the list is fairly short.  And, Batman deflecting bullets with his ki is something worthy of criticism.  Mostly I ask for internal consistency and keeping with the core of the character, and that does neither.  The Batgirl/Oracle problem is something I'm 50/50 on.

Have you checked out Invincible?  I was very impressed by it a few months ago (I am not the most avid comics reader ...).  The thing that amazed me was that it took the schlocky elements head on, played them straight, and, I think, transcended them.