Author Topic: What to do with 500 ft of reach  (Read 10115 times)

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2013, 02:16:09 PM »
I think it goes without saying that this build would want Goggles of Foefinding.  Or the Precise Swing feat, but the goggles do the same thing as are so stupidly cheap.

Offline Captnq

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2013, 10:35:03 PM »
Problem

Quote from: drunken master
A drunken master of 4th level or higher can use long improvised weapons (such as ladders) as reach weapons according to their length

Quote from: reach
A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Whips and chains specifically state they can hit adjacent targets. Your improvised weapon (500' feet of rope) has reach equal to it's length, but it does not specifically state it can hit adjacent targets.

Therefore, you cannot hit any target between 0' to 250', but are free to hit any target 255' to 500'.

PS: Before you say, "Well, it makes sense to treat it as a whip", I would like to point out you are using RAW as an argument to allow you 500' reach. Please don't apply RAI to something as insane as this. By RAW, you can do what you propose. By RAW, you cannot hit anything within 250' feet.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 10:38:26 PM by Captnq »
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Offline Captnq

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2013, 10:44:59 PM »
Assuming you wish to continue with your 500' rope improvised weapon idea...

Quote from: drunken master
Improvised Weapons (Ex): While bottles and tankards are a drunken master’s preferred improvised weapons, he can
use furniture, farm implements, or nearly anything else at hand to attack his foes. A drunken master’s improvised weapon deals as much damage as his unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points.

That means your rope does whatever your unarmed strike does.

So, you need a necklace of natural weapondry, and a pair of bracers of striking. As I have explained elsewhere, you could add a +1 to your rope and tack on an additional +19 in WSAs.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2013, 11:20:46 PM »
WSAs that jump out at me.

Assassination +1 Bonus
Add poison without fear of injuring yourself. Flick them with the rop from 500' away

Blurstrike +2 Bonus
Sure... only on the first attack. Add whirlwind, bitch slap an army. Not too close an army, mind you.

Brilliant Energy
Ignore non-living matter. Hit everyone within 255'-500' regardless of intervening objects, like walls or buildings, or the ground for that matter.

Explosive
2d4 explosion, not that impressive, until you add whirlwind.

Metalline
Turn the rope into adamantine. Ignore hardness

Sundering
+1d6 on sunder attempts

Whirling
tie a dagger on the end. Like the whip-dagger, that should make your weapon slashing. Or just take that feat Versatile strike, that'll make your unarmed attacks whatever damage type you want.

Now hit everything with your Adamantine, Sundering, Explosive rope for 255'-500'. Level buildings by lashing them to bits. Watch the bits explode with EVERY SINGLE HIT.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2013, 09:50:20 AM »
Metaline has to go onto metal weapons.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2013, 10:06:18 AM »
Quote from: reach
A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Emphasis mine. This is ambiguous, and can be argued either way by RAW. I agree that the "can't attack adjacent to you" interpretation has a stronger basis, but the other way can definitely be debated.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2013, 01:45:06 PM »
Emphasis mine. This is ambiguous, and can be argued either way by RAW. I agree that the "can't attack adjacent to you" interpretation has a stronger basis, but the other way can definitely be debated.

I've seen weapons listed as "reach" and it's clear that they were to be used at 5 to 10 feet, yet nothing in the text clarified it as such. The greatspear from Complete Warrior, for example. I have yet to find a single reach weapon meant to be used 0 to 10 feet, or 0 to 15 feet without specifically stating as such.

I am curious as to what argument you would give that a greatspear can attack adjacent targets whereas the long spear from the PHB cannot. How does a bigger spear allow one to hit closer targets?

Question:
If the Drunken Master is holding the rope, and I hit him with enlarge person, does his range double to 505' to 1000'?
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Offline Captnq

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2013, 01:49:10 PM »
Metaline has to go onto metal weapons.

You seem to be refering to the original version from underdark.

(click to show/hide)

Here is the updated entry from the MIC. Let me assure you, I only changed formatting, not the content. It makes no statement about requiring metal weapons. Then again, you no longer can turn your weapon into aurorium, starmetal, etc etc etc.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2013, 01:59:02 PM »
Emphasis mine. This is ambiguous, and can be argued either way by RAW. I agree that the "can't attack adjacent to you" interpretation has a stronger basis, but the other way can definitely be debated.

I've seen weapons listed as "reach" and it's clear that they were to be used at 5 to 10 feet, yet nothing in the text clarified it as such. The greatspear from Complete Warrior, for example. I have yet to find a single reach weapon meant to be used 0 to 10 feet, or 0 to 15 feet without specifically stating as such.

I am curious as to what argument you would give that a greatspear can attack adjacent targets whereas the long spear from the PHB cannot. How does a bigger spear allow one to hit closer targets?
By RAW a greatspear does not have reach (text trumps table). Every reach weapon in the PHB says that it has reach in the writeup, and also explicitly declares that it can't be used against creatures 10 feet away.

However, in looking this up, I've found that by RAW (CW pg 159), a reach improvised weapon explicitly can't be used against adjacent opponents. So you were right about the rope, but not about the greatspear :D
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2013, 02:39:34 PM »
Therefore, you cannot hit any target between 0' to 250', but are free to hit any target 255' to 500'.

While I'll agree that the threatened area is doughnut-shaped, I disagree on the inner radius.  All references that I can find to being unable to strike enemies that are too close give the area as either “within your natural reach” or “adjacent.”  There's nothing to indicate that increasing the outer radius of the doughnut would have any effect on the inner radius. 

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2013, 06:15:23 PM »
Problem

Quote from: drunken master
A drunken master of 4th level or higher can use long improvised weapons (such as ladders) as reach weapons according to their length

Quote from: reach
A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Whips and chains specifically state they can hit adjacent targets. Your improvised weapon (500' feet of rope) has reach equal to it's length, but it does not specifically state it can hit adjacent targets.

Therefore, you cannot hit any target between 0' to 250', but are free to hit any target 255' to 500'.

PS: Before you say, "Well, it makes sense to treat it as a whip", I would like to point out you are using RAW as an argument to allow you 500' reach. Please don't apply RAI to something as insane as this. By RAW, you can do what you propose. By RAW, you cannot hit anything within 250' feet.

Therefore, you cannot hit any target between 0' to 250', but are free to hit any target 255' to 500'.

While I'll agree that the threatened area is doughnut-shaped, I disagree on the inner radius.  All references that I can find to being unable to strike enemies that are too close give the area as either “within your natural reach” or “adjacent.”  There's nothing to indicate that increasing the outer radius of the doughnut would have any effect on the inner radius. 

What Maat Mons said basically.

Assuming you wish to continue with your 500' rope improvised weapon idea...

Quote from: drunken master
Improvised Weapons (Ex): While bottles and tankards are a drunken master’s preferred improvised weapons, he can
use furniture, farm implements, or nearly anything else at hand to attack his foes. A drunken master’s improvised weapon deals as much damage as his unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points.

That means your rope does whatever your unarmed strike does.

So, you need a necklace of natural weapondry, and a pair of bracers of striking. As I have explained elsewhere, you could add a +1 to your rope and tack on an additional +19 in WSAs.

Note the underlined word. While WSA's like Flaming would work, I don't think ones like Brilliant Energy would.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2013, 09:06:01 AM »
Therefore, you cannot hit any target between 0' to 250', but are free to hit any target 255' to 500'.

While I'll agree that the threatened area is doughnut-shaped, I disagree on the inner radius.  All references that I can find to being unable to strike enemies that are too close give the area as either “within your natural reach” or “adjacent.”  There's nothing to indicate that increasing the outer radius of the doughnut would have any effect on the inner radius.

Quote from: SRD
A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

While I would prefer to have a third example, two examples is enough to make a conjecture. at 10', you cannot hit anything at 0'-5'. At 20', you cannot hit anything 0-10'. We can therefore extrapolate that whatever the threat radius, the area that you cannot hit is half that.

To further prove my point with data that indirectly proves my position, I would direct you to DMG 308-310 where they have the diagrams of Space and Reach. It does not specifically state that you cannot threaten the smaller area, but it does show by way of shading that the "normal" threat range is different from the "reach" threat range.

I will admit, I am on shaky ground here, but in the absence of information to the contrary, I must assume that all reach weapons, unless specifically stated otherwise in the text, have a doughnut hole in the center equal to x1/2 the threat range of your reach where the attack cannot threaten.


Assuming you wish to continue with your 500' rope improvised weapon idea...
Quote from: drunken master
Improvised Weapons (Ex): While bottles and tankards are a drunken master’s preferred improvised weapons, he can
use furniture, farm implements, or nearly anything else at hand to attack his foes. A drunken master’s improvised weapon deals as much damage as his unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points.
That means your rope does whatever your unarmed strike does.

So, you need a necklace of natural weapondry, and a pair of bracers of striking. As I have explained elsewhere, you could add a +1 to your rope and tack on an additional +19 in WSAs.

Note the underlined word. While WSA's like Flaming would work, I don't think ones like Brilliant Energy would.

A weapon has an enhancement bonus. Your logic states that the +1 to hit would allow +1 damage, but not +1 to hit.

If you accept that an EB would affect both Damage and To hit...

Quote from: SRD
In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

While the bold text indicates that all WSAs are an additional bonus, the italic text would seem to indicate that it only applies to cost. However, from a legal standpoint, a prepositional phrase is not a limiter to exclusion unless it includes the world "ONLY". We cannot determine the author's original intent. Is the "For..." to be an example, or the only case where this is to be applied?

When it comes to reading legal documents, the default is clear. Without the limiter, the original statement considers the prepositional phrase to be an example. Therefore, by RAW, all WSAs are bonuses.

If you accept that EBs would modify the rope's Damage and To Hit, then you must accept that all WSAs, regardless of modifying damage or not, would apply to the rope, as allowed by the individual description of the WSA.


Now then, why do I believe that "as much damage as his unarmed strike" would include WSAs?

There are examples of items using the monk's Unarmed strike as a base elsewhere. Ward Cestus and Battle gauntlets come to mind.

Since I have a number of other sources indicating that the WSAs transfer through, I see no reason to assume that "damage" is just ill defined. If I paralyze my enemy, have I damaged him? If I drain him of con, have I damaged him? Brilliant energy doesn't damage my enemy, but only is a damage limiter. I cannot damage objects, only living things. Why would that not modify my damage? Since I cannot harm constructs and undead with it, you might assume that being a "damage modifier" it would work.

See? It gets fuzzy. I can make all sorts of arguments for various WSAs based on the word "Damage". So, it becomes far simpler to just state that all WSAs effect the rope, then to try and figure out exactly what the word means.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2013, 03:14:29 PM »
hmmm, a warshaper growing hair out into a really long braid-whip would synergy nicely with PBMCs dancer idea.

Offline EjoThims

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2013, 05:54:13 PM »
Sorry to be the spoilsport, but...

Everyone here is missing the point of the earlier quotes (even the one who posted it):

"as reach weapons according to their length"

"Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach."

The ability turns the improvised weapon into a reach weapon if it is long enough. It does not grant reach equal to the length of the weapon.

Reach weapons double your reach unless noted otherwise. The ability does not note otherwise.

Even 500' of silk rope only lets a Drunken Master double his reach.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2013, 06:23:36 PM »
Sorry to be the spoilsport, but...

Everyone here is missing the point of the earlier quotes (even the one who posted it):

"as reach weapons according to their length"

"Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach."

The ability turns the improvised weapon into a reach weapon if it is long enough. It does not grant reach equal to the length of the weapon.

Reach weapons double your reach unless noted otherwise. The ability does not note otherwise.

Even 500' of silk rope only lets a Drunken Master double his reach.

Note the word I bolded. I believe "according to their length" means that they gain reach according to their length though....yeah, looking at that bit now, it doesn't actually seem to mean anything. Chalk it up to the designers again not quite understanding the rules they were invoking.

And when you're discussing a rules trick as ridiculous as this, you need to be as RAW-correct as possible  :(. So yeah, you're right.

Captnq, I was going to get to your post next week but I suppose it doesn't really matter now...
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 06:30:17 PM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline Captnq

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Re: What to do with 500 ft of reach
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2013, 12:14:08 AM »
Sorry to be the spoilsport, but...

Everyone here is missing the point of the earlier quotes (even the one who posted it):

"as reach weapons according to their length"

"Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach."

The ability turns the improvised weapon into a reach weapon if it is long enough. It does not grant reach equal to the length of the weapon.

Reach weapons double your reach unless noted otherwise. The ability does not note otherwise.

Even 500' of silk rope only lets a Drunken Master double his reach.

BRILLIANT!
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