How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?

[littha]

It would only ever be divide by 2, 3, 4 or 5. I do hope that most people can do that with mental arithmetic, if not then I despair for the state of whichever countries school system.

[Basket Burner]

It would only ever be divide by 2, 3, 4 or 5. I do hope that most people can do that with mental arithmetic, if not then I despair for the state of whichever countries school system.

They should be able to do that, and you should despair because they cannot. The real problem though... dividing damage by 2-5? Don't you think mundanes have enough problems being relevant as is?

[SneeR]

I think that DR should probably have a minimum damage reduced, that way there is a "you must be this tall to play" sign for 1st-level warriors. After all, death by a thousand cuts is an ignominous demise for legendary creatures

So like: DR (1/2)10/magic for DR that reduces damage by 1/2 or by 10, whichever is greater.

But only enemies really get DR anyways. Unless we make armor grant the same scaling DR with no minimum, this discussion is pretty moot except for barbarians.
Oh! What if armor has no mimum, but does have a maximum? That way a mundane chain shirt is never as good as fullplate, but magic bonuses can increase the maximum DR from armor, like, by a LOT with each increase?

[oslecamo]

I think that DR should probably have a minimum damage reduced, that way there is a "you must be this tall to play" sign for 1st-level warriors. After all, death by a thousand cuts is an ignominous demise for legendary creatures

Says who? Julius Caesar, greatest roman commander in history, ends up scratched to death by a bunch of aristrocats with daggers. Black Beard goes down on his last stand only after having been damaged by 25 diret blows, multiple of them from firearms, all from nameless mooks.

EDIT: And Whitebeard took over 800 cuts/holes to go down.

[Endarire]

Playing smart have a variety of degrees.

Being able to one-shot or one-round anything, from a character's vantage, seems very wise.  After all, if I kill 'em first, I won't die.  And if you have enough defenses, the opposition can't surprise you nor even hurt you.

From a metagame perspective, saying, "You must be this short to survive," feels awkward but if often seen as necessary.

[Zonugal]

I think that DR should probably have a minimum damage reduced, that way there is a "you must be this tall to play" sign for 1st-level warriors. After all, death by a thousand cuts is an ignominous demise for legendary creatures

Says who? Julius Caesar, greatest roman commander in history, ends up scratched to death by a bunch of aristrocats with daggers. Black Beard goes down on his last stand only after having been damaged by 25 diret blows, multiple of them from firearms, all from nameless mooks.

EDIT: And Whitebeard took over 800 cuts/holes to go down.

Perhaps we shouldn't use real-world historical figures as a benchmark?

[SneeR]

I think that DR should probably have a minimum damage reduced, that way there is a "you must be this tall to play" sign for 1st-level warriors. After all, death by a thousand cuts is an ignominous demise for legendary creatures

Says who? Julius Caesar, greatest roman commander in history, ends up scratched to death by a bunch of aristrocats with daggers. Black Beard goes down on his last stand only after having been damaged by 25 diret blows, multiple of them from firearms, all from nameless mooks.

EDIT: And Whitebeard took over 800 cuts/holes to go down.

Where do those people have DR from? Even if you used my armor DR idea, those fellows didn't wear armor when they died!

I'm talking about the Titans, who no mortal man could slay. Because no mortal man could deal more than 20 damage in one hit because "you must be this tall to play." So, they may half any damage done to them by Hercules in the grand fight at the story's climax, but that only happens if all the armies in the world can't kill the Titans before Hercules gets to them!

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I hope you are joking, and did not honestly just claim that playing enemies intelligently constitutes some massive buff given that most of them are indeed intelligent.

Level appropriate enemies 1-2 round you.

[off topic logic follows]

There is a line of metagaming even the DM shouldn't cross.

Maybe I just play way over optimized characters but tanking 2 rounds of non-focusing enemies isn't hard. Little hour glasses are a must though for said longer battles.

Yes HP is wrong in 3.5. Easily fixed though.

[Basket Burner]

Non focusing enemies. I assume you mean not focusing fire, aka not playing enemies intelligently. Which means you are implying that it is a massive buff to them. Metagaming to know that beating on someone either does nothing, knocks them out, or kills them? No, that's called having any degree of experience beating on someone.

[lans]

Except that attack bonuses outstrip to hit bonuses, so getting your AC to the point where only a 20 hits is a whole lot harder and less likely than getting your saves to where only a 1 fails. It's unlikely you'd get that far, even with specific builds (none of which are the builds you mentioned).

Its not about getting AC to where only a 20 hits, those builds give either a high hp boost, DR, or a miss chance. You can take a hit from almost anything in the game at most levels.

[Shadowhunter]

Opponents should be played as intelligent and wise as their stats and racial description is portrayed, no more, no less.
I don't know about the rest of you, but if I manage to slay an Illithid I want to know it's because I had a mix of good ideas, quick thinking and a wee bit of luck, not that it was played dumber than it is. Also I love TuckersKobolds because they're played exactly as they're supposed to be, a race that sucker-punch you repeatedly.

There are situations where playing creatures smart would be an increase in CR, for example if we have a band of 6 hobgoblins that waited until after the entire party had moved out onto the one-man-file rope bridge before shooting them with arrows and starting to hack away at the bridge. Page 50 in the DMG about difficulties. I actually prefer these kinds of encounters because it makes things more interesting. But if my gaming group defeats said hobgoblins I would award more xp than if they just had beaten 6 hobgoblins.

There's a huge difference between the DM playing the opponents smart and metagaming. That's not an excuse for DM's to metagame.


As for the original question:
I dislike rocket tag but I like hot-grenade. What the hell to I mean by that?
Well, I like combats that are fast and brutal, because that's how combats are. Dangerous and lethal situations are intense and are more credible. Also as a DM it's hard to keep the suspense and action as well as the immersion going after 8+ rounds.
I dislike if it boils down to win initiative or be halfway to death. I do not know if level appropriate encounters kills you dead in 1-2 rounds, I haven't done the math. It's not been the case when I DM so far, at least so far I can remember.  So I like the principle of rocket tag but not the speed of it. So slightly slower rocket tag = hot grenade (playing hot potato with a grenade.). Chucking damage and status effects (including BFC, debuff etc) between the contestants until one of them dies.

[Basket Burner]

Except that attack bonuses outstrip to hit bonuses, so getting your AC to the point where only a 20 hits is a whole lot harder and less likely than getting your saves to where only a 1 fails. It's unlikely you'd get that far, even with specific builds (none of which are the builds you mentioned).

Its not about getting AC to where only a 20 hits, those builds give either a high hp boost, DR, or a miss chance. You can take a hit from almost anything in the game at most levels.

The only one of those that actually do anything is the miss chance. HP and AC? If that's all you have, they're gone far too quick to be of much use. DR doesn't do enough to make a difference.

Shadowhunter: You'd have to be rather dumb to step onto the obvious trap bridge. No increase in CR for making the bad choices, instead of flying over or something. And no Jaron, having your character go off alone and get jumped by 6 hobbos is not the answer. I don't think a sacrifice will sate them.

The second part of that is very contradictory. Win init or be halfway to death is... a mildly to moderately dangerous encounter. If they can't even half kill you in a round, they're not threats.

[lans]

Except that attack bonuses outstrip to hit bonuses, so getting your AC to the point where only a 20 hits is a whole lot harder and less likely than getting your saves to where only a 1 fails. It's unlikely you'd get that far, even with specific builds (none of which are the builds you mentioned).

Its not about getting AC to where only a 20 hits, those builds give either a high hp boost, DR, or a miss chance. You can take a hit from almost anything in the game at most levels.

The only one of those that actually do anything is the miss chance. HP and AC? If that's all you have, they're gone far too quick to be of much use. DR doesn't do enough to make a difference.

So 38+ con hp at first isn't going to do anything? 72 hp at 2nd? Not to mention DR 6/magic at first? Not to mention 10/magic at 6th? Or DR 3/- gainded at level 1&2&6? Or DR Constitution Modifier?

Granted these lose their power as you level up.

[veekie]

As for the original question:
I dislike rocket tag but I like hot-grenade. What the hell to I mean by that?
Well, I like combats that are fast and brutal, because that's how combats are. Dangerous and lethal situations are intense and are more credible. Also as a DM it's hard to keep the suspense and action as well as the immersion going after 8+ rounds.
I dislike if it boils down to win initiative or be halfway to death. I do not know if level appropriate encounters kills you dead in 1-2 rounds, I haven't done the math. It's not been the case when I DM so far, at least so far I can remember.  So I like the principle of rocket tag but not the speed of it. So slightly slower rocket tag = hot grenade (playing hot potato with a grenade.). Chucking damage and status effects (including BFC, debuff etc) between the contestants until one of them dies.

One middle ground I like is to count it in terms of actions instead of rounds. Say a given CR opponent would take 4 actions to put down by other equal CR, significant resource actions. This gives 4-5 chances for the opponent to resist being put down or put its opponent down. It also diminishes the weight of a single dice roll(4 rolls minimum is likely to tend towards the average).
Sure it goes down fast, but  not down to gunslinger quick-draw fast.

[Basket Burner]

Except that attack bonuses outstrip to hit bonuses, so getting your AC to the point where only a 20 hits is a whole lot harder and less likely than getting your saves to where only a 1 fails. It's unlikely you'd get that far, even with specific builds (none of which are the builds you mentioned).

Its not about getting AC to where only a 20 hits, those builds give either a high hp boost, DR, or a miss chance. You can take a hit from almost anything in the game at most levels.

The only one of those that actually do anything is the miss chance. HP and AC? If that's all you have, they're gone far too quick to be of much use. DR doesn't do enough to make a difference.

So 38+ con hp at first isn't going to do anything? 72 hp at 2nd? Not to mention DR 6/magic at first? Not to mention 10/magic at 6th? Or DR 3/- gainded at level 1&2&6? Or DR Constitution Modifier?

Granted these lose their power as you level up.

38 HP at level 1? On a PC? I'm calling bullshit on that one. Especially if it comes with all the other stuff at the same time.

veekie: 4 actions means 1 round. It does mean it's far more likely to get a round of its own, which means someone might die. One round kills on PCs are not terribly likely, but in the long term giving enemies chances to act is a losing proposition.

[lans]

Martial Monk 1 takes epic toughness or the 3/- DR

Or Dragon Wrought Kobold

[Basket Burner]

Rules abuses from poorly written and balanced Paizo material. Got it. Just wanted to make sure.

[lans]

Its RAW and officially accepted material, and are you saying fighters can't have good things because source?  Are you also going to disallow poorly written things for wizards?

[Basket Burner]

Its RAW and officially accepted material, and are you saying fighters can't have good things because source?  Are you also going to disallow poorly written things for wizards?

Yes, I dismiss Paizo's massive caster buffs out of hand as well. Getting feats without any prerequisites whatsoever is akin to thinking that Vigilantes can cast 34 spells or whatever number it is because of an editing error.

[veekie]

4 actions means 1 round. It does mean it's far more likely to get a round of its own, which means someone might die. One round kills on PCs are not terribly likely, but in the long term giving enemies chances to act is a losing proposition.

Actually, due to the same thing, it has a round of its own to perform one action, which would reduce a PC by 1/4-1/2, upon which the PCs then get to off it. 4-5 chances of influencing the outcome refers to passive and reactive defenses alike(with the 5th being it getting its own action into gear), you need to fail all of these chances to actually lose.