Author Topic: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution  (Read 7790 times)

Offline Ziegander

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Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« on: December 06, 2011, 02:23:55 PM »
I have never read or encountered any iteration of the Barbarian class that I enjoyed. I've never read mechanics for a Barbarian class that I thought I would enjoy playing, and only rarely have I ever even read fluff for a Barbarian that I have found compelling. The whole notion that a Barbarian is angry and stupid completely ruins the class conceptually and mechanically. There's just nothing interesting about that notion.

I think the thing people want from a Barbarian is a class that is simple to play and that is both physically powerful and physically resilient. It shouldn't be that hard to create an interesting class using that foundation, but I've never been able to do it justice, and I've never come across a published or homebrewed version that does it justice.

What are your thoughts on Barbarians, what you expect of such a class, and how best to execute the concept?

Offline Risada

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 02:30:45 PM »
Well... I like Robby's take on the Barbarian...

With temp HP granted while raging, the barbarian was resilient and hit hard, among other goodies.

I think Robby's version is quite close to what the Barbarian should do...

If you don't like the part about the barb being stupid... just take the Illiteracy away.   :eh :P

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 02:36:59 PM »
Looking back on it, there's a lot I'd change with that version. It's quite dippable as-is, with rage being per encounter. I have another version I'm working on for a larger set of house rules. Most of them, including this, are fairly quick and dirty. This set basically adds in something every three levels, when you'd normally only get Trap Sense:


  • When raging, the barbarian gains Fast Healing, healing a number of points per round equal to his class level.
  • At 3rd level, a barbarian does not automatically fail a saving throw on a natural 1 while raging.
  • At 6th level, the barbarian may gain benefits of Haste while raging, as an Extraordinary ability. When the rage ends, the barbarian is exhausted instead of fatigued for the remainder of the encounter.
  • At 9th level, the barbarian may ignore hardness and damage reduction while raging.
  • At 15th level, the barbarian may gain benefits of Mind Blank while raging, as an Extraordinary ability.
  • At 18th level, the barbarian may start and end his rage as a free action. There is no limit to the number of times per day he can enter rage.

It's not perfect, and if I just re-wrote the progression from scratch, I'd probably give some abilities earlier, but I think it helps mechanically. It give some nice defenses, but there are still some weaknesses. He's still pretty much a combat-only guy. I haven't put too much thought about how I want that to work. Maybe at 12th level, they can get a 1/day Commune or something, by talking with spirits or whatever.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 02:38:34 PM »
The most interesting barbarian-type class I ever saw was the algai'd'siswai from d20 Wheel of Time.  No rage, but fast movement and unarmed combat, and the nomadic/barbaric culture.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 02:42:09 PM »
I don't really understand the core complaint - if you take away the "angry and uneducated" part, what would the core concept of the barbarian be?

I mean, the notion of the barbarian is "I want to be like Conan" - now, if that doesn't work for you, ok, but you're really asking for a different class entirely, I think. 

edit:
The most interesting barbarian-type class I ever saw was the algai'd'siswai from d20 Wheel of Time.  No rage, but fast movement and unarmed combat, and the nomadic/barbaric culture.

That is a really fun class.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 03:06:04 PM »
I mean, the notion of the barbarian is "I want to be like Conan" - now, if that doesn't work for you, ok, but you're really asking for a different class entirely, I think.

The mechanics of the class really do not come across as Conan-esque. They strike me as more Hulk-like.



I personally think that 4E had a decent take on the class (aside from the whole "It's 4E" problem the class has).
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 03:08:49 PM »
I don't really understand the core complaint - if you take away the "angry and uneducated" part, what would the core concept of the barbarian be?

The core concept of the Barbarian, as I understand it, is not "angry and stupid" but something more like:

[...] a class that is simple to play and that is both physically powerful and physically resilient.

Quote from: Mooncrow
I mean, the notion of the barbarian is "I want to be like Conan" - now, if that doesn't work for you, ok, but you're really asking for a different class entirely, I think.

And from what I've gathered over the years, Conan is neither consumed by Rage, nor stupid. In fact, he is calculating, cunning, and often sneaky.

I'm saying that every version of the Barbarian I've ever seen has gone the route of "angry and stupid" and that they are missing the point. If people want to play as Conan, then "angry and stupid" doesn't work for anyone, and if people want to play a class that is both physically powerful and physically resilient there are any number of other ways to execute that aside from Rage.

Do people want Barbarian to be synonymous with Big Stupid Fighter? If not, what are other options for creating "a class that is simple to play and that is both physically powerful and physically resilient?"

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2011, 03:23:17 PM »
In the first few books, he was more of a thief, but that changed pretty quickly.  There are numerous mentions in just about every actual novel of Conan getting pissed off and then preforming superhuman feats of strength.  He's not a berserker (and neither is the barbarian) but the rage mechanic actually fits the canon pretty well. 

And I didn't say stupid, I said uneducated.  They are not the same - Conan is smart and sneaky and clever, but he always disdained the formally educated, feared magic, and when push came to shove, his default answer was "hit it with my sword until it stops moving". 

I dunno, I think you're reading more into the "big stupid fighter" than is actually supported by the 3.5 barbarian.  They get a decent amount of skills (more would be nice, I agree), and their fighting style almost demands a fair amount of tactical thought.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to reworking the chassis, but I think the core concept isn't as bad as you make it sound. 

Offline Ziegander

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2011, 04:00:47 PM »
It isn't the concept of a Barbarian I have a problem with, in fact, I'd like to play an interesting Barbarian character. The problem I have is with the execution of that concept, because in every iteration of the Barbarian I've ever seen the execution is strictly limited to "I get mad and hit things in the face." Everything in the game that deals damage to enemies gets mad and hits things in the face, but the concept of the Barbarian has been limited to this single, unflinching priority, and it's one that I don't find interesting and I don't even think well-represents the concept. That's my problem with all existing Barbarian classes.

I'm posting this to see if I'm the only person who has been disappointed by the execution of the Barbarian concept over the years, and if I'm not to see what other posters think can or has been done to solve my problem.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 04:09:18 PM »
I've always had fun with them, but never had paid attention to the WotC fluff
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 04:11:41 PM »
It isn't the concept of a Barbarian I have a problem with, in fact, I'd like to play an interesting Barbarian character. The problem I have is with the execution of that concept, because in every iteration of the Barbarian I've ever seen the execution is strictly limited to "I get mad and hit things in the face." Everything in the game that deals damage to enemies gets mad and hits things in the face, but the concept of the Barbarian has been limited to this single, unflinching priority, and it's one that I don't find interesting and I don't even think well-represents the concept. That's my problem with all existing Barbarian classes.

I'm posting this to see if I'm the only person who has been disappointed by the execution of the Barbarian concept over the years, and if I'm not to see what other posters think can or has been done to solve my problem.

Definitely check out Algai'd'siswai then.
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 06:43:26 PM »
It isn't the concept of a Barbarian I have a problem with, in fact, I'd like to play an interesting Barbarian character. The problem I have is with the execution of that concept, because in every iteration of the Barbarian I've ever seen the execution is strictly limited to "I get mad and hit things in the face." Everything in the game that deals damage to enemies gets mad and hits things in the face, but the concept of the Barbarian has been limited to this single, unflinching priority, and it's one that I don't find interesting and I don't even think well-represents the concept. That's my problem with all existing Barbarian classes.

I'm posting this to see if I'm the only person who has been disappointed by the execution of the Barbarian concept over the years, and if I'm not to see what other posters think can or has been done to solve my problem.

Definitely check out Algai'd'siswai then.

Eh, that's interesting, but it's just as narrowly defined as ever and it's so mechanically weak as to be sad. :(

Offline veekie

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 03:31:46 AM »
The barbarian as it is probably makes a better Berserker class, its centered on rage and nothing but ragey combat. It doesn't reflect a 'primitive' or uncivilised warrior very effectively(in fact if you put the barbarian as written into a primitive setting, hes likely down to robbing other tribes for food, his wilderness and hunting skills are rather lacking).

Better to split it into a Berserker class(strongly warrior oriented, taps primal fury/power of insanity and generally breaks shit) and a true Barbarian class(a warrior from a primitive culture that taps into his skills, cunning and superstitions to succeed).
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 03:57:32 AM »
Yeah, Conan is a rogue. Sorry to burst your bubble. He just took a level of Warblade for the weapon proficiencies.

If you want powerful and resilient, start by removing rage. The ability is definitely something for more a of a berserker.
Now, give them the ability to put an extra kick behind their swings, like a super-power attack perhaps, usable always.
Perhaps give him an armor-piercing ability so that he can still hit with it.
Give them damage reduction that actually matters.
Give them wilderness skills and the Endurance feat.
Let them reduce damage taken from non-mundane sources, too, like that Crusader damage pool.

Fast movement not necessary, medium armor not necessary, trap sense not necessary. This guy survives by one simple but powerful defense: you just can't kill him fast enough. Sure, he might have to waltz through a crowd, but he can take a hundred arrows and all the king's men before he finally chops the king's own head off with one mighty blow. Nothing fancy, nothing complex.
Base everything on level, so it's not so diptastic, and voila.

Just a barbarian; simple to play, simple to build, simple to use. As simple as his origins.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 02:08:05 PM »
I think of vikings as a for of barbarian, more seafaring though
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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 05:06:41 PM »
I like my barbarians "wild and formally uneducated/uncultured" not necessarily angry or stupid. The conception of all barbarians as being "angry and stupid" is as much of a mistake as seeing all paladins as "lawful stupid." I think both of these cliched misrepresentations come from a lack of imagination not anything that is required by the classes or themes.     
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 09:37:45 PM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline bhu

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 05:16:25 PM »
quick question:

how many fortitude saves have a partial effect on a successful save?

Im thinking of doing some barbarian remake type stuff...

Offline SneeR

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 05:43:44 PM »
Not many, bhu. That's why Mettle is both Will Saves and Fort saves together, still making it just barely equal to Evasion.
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Offline bhu

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 05:51:34 PM »
what if you had an ability that basically amounted to allowing you a save for partial effect against damaging spells and abilities whether they allowed one or not?

Offline SneeR

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Re: Barbarian: Fine Concept / Poor Execution
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 05:59:33 PM »
what if you had an ability that basically amounted to allowing you a save for partial effect against damaging spells and abilities whether they allowed one or not?

I'd need an example to comprehend just what you mean.
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