Industrial Magic - Fabricate

[Halinn]

I'd go with spell traps of Heat Metal and Chill Metal for a steam engine. I think it'd require less space than wall of fire. With a decanter of endless water, you won't even need chill metal for water recapture.

[nijineko]

think of what a decanter of endless water and a water column could do..... that would be some serious water pressure if you could build a high enough column... especially in a location like sharn, or perhaps by abusing the stronghold builder's guidebook license for flexibly shaped strong hold spaces.

[Lokiyn]

Decanter of endless water can indeed fuel a Power Network However, as with irrigating large territories, that aggregate cost of the number of decanters needed on an industrial scale is often prohibited.

Heat metal steam engines. I've done some research on using heat metal to fuel a steam engine, the problem lies in two areas, fuel and efficiency.
Give or take some, each instance of heat metal produces roughly 1.2-2.3hp worth of power (depending on efficiency and average temperatures) for a single cycle non recycling steam engine.

Power wise, the most "bang" is, judging from the numbers i've gathered, garnered from using the decompression of liquid CO2 through the medium of pneumatic motors and pistons.

moreover the device is relatively small. (assuming the 2ft^3 model is only an inch thick of iron), it weighs roughly 355 lbs and outputs roughly say 1500 hp worth of power. As a bonus, the device itself has no moving parts, (although the mechanical device used to convert the expansion into useful work would have some)

If any of you have ever worked in, or deal with a factory setting, you'd know that most factories use a similar system of compressed air to power hand tools and some machinery because of its cheap effective nature.

To put this into perspective you have all the power budget of a Packard V-1650, used to power the P51 Mustang with 1/4th the weight, unlimited fuel supply (assuming of course you have atmosphere) with the only limitation being the materials science to withstand rapid chilling from expansion.

Which is, of course completely discounting just using the device as a pure unadulterated rocket engine.

[Chemus]

The main difficulty IRL in condensing gases into liquid or solid form to utilize their potential energy is the laws of thermodynamics. Once the word 'magic' comes up, then creation of energy and/or matter make for perpetual motion machines. That is, you no longer have zero net effect on the universe; you are increasing matter/energy in the plane you're in.

It's true that the CO₂ is more efficient upon energy release than water, but only the 'free' nature of the recovery/creation method for dry ice makes it so. If producing dry ice required more resources (as it does IRL) than regular water ice, the water would be a simpler method.

As a story mechanic, think of what effect condensing copious amounts of CO₂ might have on plant life, who consume the resource in their respiration. Indeed DarkSun has one of its two main types of magic drawing the life energy directly from surrounding plants/water/creatures (Defilers vs. Preservers). In a mago-scientific world, there will be Druidic-type luddites who preach of the, possibly very real, dangers of using magic to produce such effects on a grand scale and over a long term. Think global warming on steroids

[Lokiyn]

In this case, it is a zero sum.

Rather than dry ice you are producing liquid CO2 a wholely different animal.
Moreover while I this true that you are pulling CO2 from the air you are not making any more CO2. rather you are creating a procket of air where the CO2 is 2% less than normal and an exhaust that disperses back to equilibrium withthe rest of the air

[Chemus]

Zero sum for matter, but not energy; the spell/magic used is likely to use much lower energy than would be required to do the same work IRL. A spell trap is a perpetual motion machine, by definition, since it's permanent and does something without ever requiring a refreshed power source or any other form of maintenance.

[Kreuz]

We would have to assume a greater force providing the energy. In the case of divine magic that is easy, you know, Pelor and the gang.

But what powers Arcane? is there an unnamed entity that powers arcane magic without requiring devotion? Comparing Arcane to Divine... this actually poses a good question.

Perhaps it has been explained somewhere before. I am not really that well versed in the D&D universe.

Uh... sorry for appearing uncalled. *shies away*

EDIT: I suddenly feel like someone is going to mention the Ur-Priest, metaphorically kicking me in the shins...

[littha]

But what powers Arcane? is there an unnamed entity that powers arcane magic without requiring devotion? Comparing Arcane to Divine... this actually poses a good question.

Following this train of thought there would be some being providing energy to clerics of an ideal and the like too which I don't think is supported. Arcane magic seems to be drawn from the environment somehow, though differently to how a druid draws energy from nature itself.

[Halinn]

In Faerûn, arcane magic is also kinda divine (powered by the Weave, which is dependent on Mystra)

[Kreuz]

Clerics could be powered by those who favor his alignment... I mean, they still use a Holy Symbol, and Divine Focus. Also their spell are considered Divine... which wouldn't be the case if they weren't powered by a divine force.

Seeing the things this way... Druids would actually be using the power of nature as divinity... which could be seen as actually weakening it?

What powers a deity? I may be thinking about a different lore, but I think it is the amount of worshippers it has? I am not really sure how following a Good ideal would be considered praise to the gods of Good... but it is in itself a manifestation of Good... so, in a way, it is inserting more Good in the universe... by consuming the life force of the creature that follows the ideal, since every second of life is a second of life force consumed.

That could apply as well to Evil... but Neutral? isn't Neutral supposed to be zero sum? Well... if you are not following neither a Good nor an Evil ideal, the energy consumed of your life force has to go somewhere... and that could very well be Neutral. There are Neutral gods, right?

Thus... the capacity to cast a divine spell, first transfers the life force to a higher power, be it a specific god or a cosmic force powered by the alignment of the ideal, and then comes back to the caster, making it "divine" in nature. This seems suboptimal, since energy transfer usually includes a loss of energy that is disipated, and in this case it would be two-fold, when it could have powered the caster directly with lower energy loss... but there go the fighters, barbarians, and other non-casters, that cooperate to the same cosmic force, without using it. Also, not every second of a caster's life is spellcasting.

Now... Arcane... life force converteg in magic, stored within the caster? since it has to come from the inside, that explains why arcane has a chance of failure when using armor, when divine doesn't have that limitation, even when it is the SAME spell that is being cast.

Also, the higher levels, both Arcane and Divine, can cast higher level magic not only because they can channel it better, but because a bigger portion of their life force that has been converted for that purpose.

I mean, maybe.

[nijineko]

The main difficulty IRL in condensing gases into liquid or solid form to utilize their potential energy is the laws of thermodynamics. Once the word 'magic' comes up, then creation of energy and/or matter make for perpetual motion machines. That is, you no longer have zero net effect on the universe; you are increasing matter/energy in the plane you're in.

according to hawking, destruction of energy/information in our universe is already taking place. he's been of that mind since the 70's or so. it got a number of other scientists upset with him. last i read, they still are.

[Childe]

The base item is still that, so you have enscribed a one shot scroll, which still requires spell completion to work. Rune Circles only allow you to inscribe on surface, they don't change the underlying effect of the item.

Nowhere in the section does it state that. The book states "Any eligible creature standing within this area gains the benefit of the rune circle’s magic, with no activation
or other action required on the part of the creature to be affected" and makes no mention of the rune circle being expended by any amount of usage - while it does give rules for a rune circle being destroyed under other conditions.

But the rune circle is based on the scroll, and to gain the benefits of the scroll, you need to have spell completion activation.

If you wanted use activated/command word activated then you would have to use a different magic item to base it off of than the scroll

I disagreed with your first quote before and explained what the book says along with what it omits, and you restating your opinion without an actual argument that cites the rules doesn't change things.

As for portability costs: these are purely subjective; to an adventurer having a rune circle if endless water in the desert is a great boon, but not if he can't take it with him.
But to a city it is awesome. Now what would happen if the city had become deserted and left to rot in the desert, again it becomes a subjective cost of the rune circle.

So for a player to craft a rune circle we need to take the purely RAW costs.

No one asked the populace to desert the city. A better argument would be that a city could retroactively be built around that inconveniently placed rune circle in the desert. But it's still not a perfect argument because a desert is a very good place for a rune circle of endless water to "unfortunately" be stuck. It's a murky issue, to be sure. I do feel, however, if we are considering RAI at all - which you seem to waffle between on the former issue and this one - that a rune circle that supports a city's defense should not be discounted as the city's defense is only applicable while the city is there anyway. (In the case of the city being deserted, the desertion doesn't make the rune circle any less helpful should anyone need to defend the city walls in the future.)

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

1) THE CAT GIRLS!!!

2) This is why I'm not a chemist; its already magic.

3) This is freaking awesome. This needs to be our tippy-verse.

4) 18 posts and 9 respect. That's got to be a record or something. Bravo Lokiyn

[Keldar]

In Faerûn, arcane magic is also kinda divine (powered by the Weave, which is dependent on Mystra)

The Weave/Mystra is just the interface/filter that makes it easier and safer to use magic.  Something they abused when demolishing the setting for 4e.  Magic energy itself is a field of universal background energy, more or less.

[Lokiyn]

One of the more curious interactions on a meta level, is that of fabricate and a few of the metamagic feats. Although without using various other tricks and such, the use of metamagic feats would push us over the arbitrary caster level 10 limit this thread is based on and invalidate the premise.
I’ll list a few below as food for thought

Chain Spell [Metamagic. +3]
A curious multiplier of effect, if fabricate is good, chain makes it much much better. Take into consideration a 15th level caster using fabricate to produce any arbitrary block of stone of 15 ft^3. If the caster instead used Chain on the spell, he would produce 16 ea. 15ft^3 blocks for the casting of a single spell. Moreover he has roughly  2700 square feet of area to play with to place the blocks in any array.
Also note how this compares favorably to “greater” psionic fabricate, as evidenced below (sorry it’s a tad messy) with a “use activated item at will” for gp comparison

SL/PL	CL/ML	Vol	Sec	Total	...	Use act	...	Gp/Ft^3	Spell
8	15	1	15	240	...	216000	...	900	Fabricate, Chained
6	9	10		90	...	97200	...	1080	Fabricate, Psionic Greater
6	15	10		150	...	162000	...	1080	Fabricate, Psionic Greater
4	7	1		7	...	50400	...	7200	Fabricate, Psionic
4	15	1		15	...	108000	...	7200	Fabricate, Psionic
5	9	1		9	...	81000	...	9000	Fabricate
5	15	1		15	...	135000	...	9000	Fabricate

Delay spell [Metamagic], and Enlarge spell [Metamagic] I believe have obvious uses.
Curiously enough Eschew material Components [General] is a viable yet curious choice.  Since the limits of fabricate are the consumption of a raw materials in equal value of the finished product. In essence you can “spontaneously” create anything with a craft check that has a market value of 3 gp or less…. Which is really not a terribly useful way to burn a 5th level spell slot.
Well…. Outside of a some quirky corner cases. For example Firewood is valued at 1 copper per 20 pounds, which means you could, in theory produce 3 gp market of firewood….. or about 3 tons worth. (or if you prefer something to justify a craft check) 600 ft worth of ladder weighing in a 1200 pounds.

MetaNode Spell [Metamagic]
Kind of a corner case here, If you have access to a node, then you have could build your items with lowered caster levels. For example a Chained, Metanode III, Fabricate magic item, would be under our 10th level caster limit, but would only work in a level III or higher node (25% of all nodes)

And so on and so forth
 

[nijineko]

don't forget about meta reducers.

if you use the metapower and midnight infusion feats (preferably with the psycarnum infusion and azure talent feats too) and a 10th level ardent with the creation mantle and dominant ideal you can probably skew those numbers a bit more.

[nijineko]

Too bad this thread hasn't seen any more updates.

I'm looking at the Fantastic Machine and Greater Fantastic Machine spells in the Spell Compendium (p88-9). Making those into magic items would do wonders for assembly lines.

Not to mention Eberron's Autodesk and Forging Homunculus.

3.0's Astral Tasker power chain (not updated so still viable in 3.5) allows one to create astral constructs with skills. Do so with an Erbauer and you can jump the lifespan to hour/level.