Author Topic: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)  (Read 12932 times)

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Note: It would be greatly appreciated if the person who created this trick could come foward. Also, while this trick is a gray area (because "it relies on being able to define lycanthropes as a new creature created by a template instead of as a creature with a template") I feel it is gray enough to be posted here. 

"Minor Shape Change keys off disguise self, not alter self or alternate form, which did not receive the same errata.

Racial Emulation allows a Changeling to, when assuming the form of a humanoid creauter (which lycanthropes are), emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes and count as that race for other purposes.

Assume Supernatural Ability allows you to gain use a single supernatural ability of any kind of creature that you take the form of with a polymorph self or similar spell, which supposedly Racial Emulation meets, since you count as being that race by using a spell.

You use Minor Shape Change to take the form of a Werebattletitan in humanoid form, and because of Racial Emulation you count as a Werebattletitan. You then choose their Alternate Form ability as the single supernatural ability you gain from Assume Supernatural ability.

So, supposedly, as a level 1 Changeling with 1 flaw, you can take the form of a 36 HD Battletitan or it's hybrid form."

Edit: Since you need to be within one size category of the battletitan you will need access to dragon so you can emulate the half minotaur template on the character. Half minotaur gives a size category while retaining the original type.

If you don't have access to dragon you can still use the legendary animals from the monster manuel 2 or the cave dinosaurs from the minis handbook.


Edit: Gah so confused. I thought I would just be transfering this here and that would be the end of it. I'll just leave this post by Ejothims here and let you guys figure it out :hide.

I believe it was on the old BG forums that someone explained the templated restriction still applying, though I do not honestly recall it myself.

Perhaps it was defining the race you are emulating?? As, for example, Feral Minotaur is not a race, but rather means "Minotaur race with feral template applied." I honestly do not recall.

If you do find that to be a problem (or someone else points out the reason again), below is a bit more in depth about what that gray area may or may not allow, as well as a final note about why allowing the gray area means templating in order to create a valid base for a Werebattletitan is also not an issue.

To be honest though, this trick first came out so long ago as a mere aside and is so blatantly, obviously, stupidly broken that it was never regarded (even by myself and others who supported it's potentially shady legality) as anything more than a joke... Akin to IHSing away the sun if you're a Drow.

PC: I'm playing a Changeling with 1 flaw and no gear... But I didn't take VoP...
GM: Why not?
PC: You'll see... 

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 07:29:01 PM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 06:08:07 PM »
Note: It would be greatly appreciated if the person who created this trick could come foward. Also, while this trick is a gray area (because "it relies on being able to define lycanthropes as a new creature created by a template instead of as a creature with a template") I feel it is gray enough to be posted here.

I'm going to ignore the "gray areas" because there's no point debating "gray".

Lycanthropes animal base must have a size category be within one from their base form.
So the Huge Battletitan could only be a lycanthrope of a Large, Huge, or Gargantuan creature.

But a Changeling is Medium, and wouldn't be able to MCS into a Large creature.
Since Disguise Self can only add up to a foot, to a creature that doesn't reach six foot, no Large for you.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 06:19:15 PM »
Note: It would be greatly appreciated if the person who created this trick could come foward. Also, while this trick is a gray area (because "it relies on being able to define lycanthropes as a new creature created by a template instead of as a creature with a template") I feel it is gray enough to be posted here.

I'm going to ignore the "gray areas" because there's no point debating "gray".

Lycanthropes animal base must have a size category be within one from their base form.
So the Huge Battletitan could only be a lycanthrope of a Large, Huge, or Gargantuan creature.

But a Changeling is Medium, and wouldn't be able to MCS into a Large creature.
Since Disguise Self can only add up to a foot, to a creature that doesn't reach six foot, no Large for you.

Wow, It's not suprising that I didn't notice that but it is suprising that none of the veteran optimizers that were on the thread I got the trick from didn't notice.

Edit: What if the changeling got a permanent enlarge person?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 06:22:26 PM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 06:33:21 PM »
Edit: What if the changeling got a permanent enlarge person?
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 07:37:31 PM »
A lycanthrope is only a humanoid if the base creature was a humanoid.  I don't think there are any large humanoids. 

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 07:52:33 PM »
A lycanthrope is only a humanoid if the base creature was a humanoid.  I don't think there are any large humanoids. 

There are a few, if you allow 3.0 and don't update it. In Oriental Adventures, some of the Naga, all become Monstrous in Dragon 318; In Monsters of Faerun there are a few, all are designated Monstrous in the Web Enhancement for PGtF.

Even all of the templates that change size change type too.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 11:00:10 PM »
At level 2 you have more than enough money to pay a caster to cast a permanent enlarge person on you. It will still be dispellable though.

Edit:Another option is to take the half ogre template which will make you large and has the advantage of not being dispellable. It's LA 1 though so you'll still have to become a battletitan at level 2. Edit:half ogre makes you a giant which means racial emulation would not work.

Does anyone know of a way to become large at level one. Edit: while retaining humanoid type?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 11:37:37 AM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 12:00:25 AM »
At level 2 you have more than enough money to pay a caster to cast a permanent enlarge person on you. It will still be dispellable though.

Edit:Another option is to take the half ogre template which will make you large and has the advantage of not being dispellable. It's LA 1 though so you'll still have to become a battletitan at level 2.

Does anyone know of a way to become large at level one?

You miss the point.

The problem isn't just that the Changeling can't get bigger.
Racial Emulation only works with humanoid forms.
Battletitan can't be a lycanthrope form for a medium creature.
There are no humanoids that are larger than medium.
The only ones that were, were updated to be monstrous humanoids.

This trick can re-enter "gray area" if a different form is chosen, likely to whatever is the most powerful large animal.
But huge+ size animals are out.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 11:35:17 AM »
At level 2 you have more than enough money to pay a caster to cast a permanent enlarge person on you. It will still be dispellable though.

Edit:Another option is to take the half ogre template which will make you large and has the advantage of not being dispellable. It's LA 1 though so you'll still have to become a battletitan at level 2.

Does anyone know of a way to become large at level one?
You miss the point.

The problem isn't just that the Changeling can't get bigger.
Racial Emulation only works with humanoid forms.
Battletitan can't be a lycanthrope form for a medium creature.
There are no humanoids that are larger than medium.
The only ones that were, were updated to be monstrous humanoids.

This trick can re-enter "gray area" if a different form is chosen, likely to whatever is the most powerful large animal.
But huge+ size animals are out.

Hmmm... What if you applied the half minotaur template (which grants you a size category while keeping your original type) to the changeling, than get a permanent enlarge person. Than you would be huge and a humanoid allowing you to emulate a humanoid infected with battletitan lycanthropy.

Apoligies if I am missing the point, Finding expoits isn't really my speciality. I thought I would just be transfering this trick.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 01:28:23 PM »
The point isn't the changeling; it's the target creature.
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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 02:30:58 PM »
The point isn't the changeling; it's the target creature.

Well if original size doesn't matter than why not make the target creature a templated changeling?

Really sorry if I'm not getting what you guys are saying. i have reading comprehension problems.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 02:40:19 PM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 03:09:30 PM »
Basically, in the specific case of the Werebattletitan, you would need to both have a target humanoid of the right size (to be a werebattletitan in the first place), and then a Changeling of the same size.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 03:13:43 PM »
The point isn't the changeling; it's the target creature.

Well if original size doesn't matter than why not make the target creature a templated changeling?

Really sorry if I'm not getting what you guys are saying. i have reading comprehension problems.

The original trick depends on defining a lycanthrope as a new creature, instead of a templated creature, since there is at some point a limiter against taking the form of a templated creature. So applying templates to the assumed form violates that premise.

In short, no Battletitan unless someone cares to point out that changelings don't have that limiter in the first place.
At which point, the whole trick works, possibly even without Racial Emulation.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 03:14:54 PM »
Because all the templates that change size also change type, therefore there are no humanoid type creatures of the right size to get the normal battletitan

You might be able to use the Dungeonbred template (i'm afb), to decrease the battletitans size down so that it is within one size category of Large?

Otherwise, just look at other animals.... The legendary animals in mm2 are amazing, check out the cave dinos in Mini handbook
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Re: Becoming a werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 05:21:21 PM »
Because all the templates that change size also change type, therefore there are no humanoid type creatures of the right size to get the normal battletitan

You might be able to use the Dungeonbred template (i'm afb), to decrease the battletitans size down so that it is within one size category of Large?

Otherwise, just look at other animals.... The legendary animals in mm2 are amazing, check out the cave dinos in Mini handbook

Actually the half minotaur template from dragon mag gives a size increase while maintaining type.

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 05:22:41 PM »
Quote
The original trick depends on defining a lycanthrope as a new creature, instead of a templated creature, since there is at some point a limiter against taking the form of a templated creature. So applying templates to the assumed form violates that premise.

In short, no Battletitan unless someone cares to point out that changelings don't have that limiter in the first place.
At which point, the whole trick works, possibly even without Racial Emulation.

So... the trick does work? Geez this is hurting my head.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 05:26:49 PM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 11:51:11 PM »
Well that template can help you make a Small or Medium Humanoid one size larger, which is Large. Which then would allow the creature to take the lycanthropy of a Medium to Huge Animal

It now seems like a battletitan is a eligible option for the ability.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2012, 12:11:00 PM »
So... the trick does work? Geez this is hurting my head.

Minor Shape Change keys off disguise self, not alter self or alternate form, which did not receive the same errata.

Part of that is that it is Alter Self that prevents taking the form of a templated creature, Disguise Self does not have that limitation.
Thus the whole "Is lycanthrope a new creature, or a templated one" thing is moot in the first place. Therefore, if Dragon is availible, and Half-Minotaur with it, yes, the trick works.

Unless I'm missing something.
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Offline EjoThims

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2012, 10:28:17 PM »
I believe it was on the old BG forums that someone explained the templated restriction still applying, though I do not honestly recall it myself.

Perhaps it was defining the race you are emulating?? As, for example, Feral Minotaur is not a race, but rather means "Minotaur race with feral template applied." I honestly do not recall.

If you do find that to be a problem (or someone else points out the reason again), below is a bit more in depth about what that gray area may or may not allow, as well as a final note about why allowing the gray area means templating in order to create a valid base for a Werebattletitan is also not an issue.

To be honest though, this trick first came out so long ago as a mere aside and is so blatantly, obviously, stupidly broken that it was never regarded (even by myself and others who supported it's potentially shady legality) as anything more than a joke... Akin to IHSing away the sun if you're a Drow.

PC: I'm playing a Changeling with 1 flaw and no gear... But I didn't take VoP...
GM: Why not?
PC: You'll see...  :plotting

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Offline Ithamar

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Re: Becoming a Werebattletitan at level one (by someone from the WOTC boards)
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2012, 11:59:03 AM »
Assume Supernatural Ability states it works when you use polymorph or a similar ability.  But I think you'd be hard pressed to get Disguise Self to count as a polymorph effect.  It is an illusion effect after all, not Transmutation.  Granted this is all TO anyway, but it takes a pretty liberal reading of the feat for this to work.

Plus, since Polymorph is based (partially at least) on Alter Self, and part of this trick is that Disguise Self is not based on Alter Self...  Seems like further evidence it wouldn't actually work.