Author Topic: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?  (Read 31919 times)

Offline littha

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2012, 01:12:32 AM »
Bizzarely for a White Wolf game it doesnt look like any is overwhelmingly better than the others but that is just my first impression.

Offline PipTheBlue

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2012, 01:25:29 AM »
imho it doesn't really matter. For coincidental effects, entropy can be very useful as you can give probability a little push towards your favor, e.g. sudden gusts of wind or a bursting steam pipe. These examples could also be done using forces and matter, b ut I believe they are stronger towards these purposes, but it takes a little more effort to make the effects coincidental. Like invoking high pressure steam in an arbitrary pipe or shaping a brick wall into a secret door. You couldn't do that with entropy, yet they're (mostly) coincidental.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2012, 07:52:31 AM »
What sphere you think is individually the stronger & why? I think my guess would be entropy, just because it has a mind boggling range of application, and it's subtle enough that if you go about it properly, you don't have to worry so much with paradox as say... with forces.

No one sphere is any better than any other on it's own. Certain combinations are much better than others though.

Correspondence + Life for example. To put that combo in D&D terms, you have: Greater Status + unlimited Healing; Loves Pain Assassination (for those familiar with the trick); Shapechanging; Teleportation; and the list goes on.

BUT!

It doesn't matter, just because a Sphere could do something, doesn't meant that you could use it for that.
Because of Paradigm. Like mine: sure I can justify pretty much anything with enough thought when it comes to pattern spheres, but I'd never be able to use Mind anywhere near as effectively (I'd have to talk them into believing things, I couldn't just directly influence), and Correspondence I couldn't use certain parts at all (like teleporting).
Which makes it all the better that Dictum is enforcing adherence to it.

That said, yes Entropy is a nice sphere. You and I get in a fight, I throw a stick of Dynamite, and it *just happens* to be a dud.
Awesome  :cool.

But Entropy is even more limited than the other spheres as far as what you can do with lower ranks. Entropy 2 lets you influence a card game, Matter 2 lets you be your own personal Mint. Which one gets you more money? Entropy can make it easier to avoid blows, but needs Time to work on most projectiles, whereas there are printed Rotes for Force to take away successes from the attacker at range, and to be able to read the persons kinetic distribution in order to make it easier to block / parry their melee attacks.

Again, it's about the combination that you use. Entropy does have one major advantage, most of its most significant advantages can be used for your teammates, so you can help others succeed, as well as yourself.
Awesome  :cool.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 07:54:09 AM by ariasderros »
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Offline brujon

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2012, 10:22:46 AM »
of course, the spheres are much stronger when combined. For example, entropy + prime can combine to create a semipermanent hex affecting an area or an object, or even some person's fate. Powerful effects can be created, even game changing ones. But as entropy is natively so general, you can be very creative with it, in a way you can't with most disciplines. Although you can't change a bullets flight without time, you can make it so the wound just goes straight through flesh with minimal damage, or richochets off a bone preventing further damage... Maybe an involuntary muscle contraction stiffened your muscles just enough to change the path the bullet took when it hit you, or any other explanation.... As long as it's within the realm of probability, you can affect it with entropy, and with enough justification, it can continue coincidental, and therefore avoid paradox. That said, Jhor is a very significant setback, and entropy has a way of accumulating nasty amounts of resonance... Messing with fate is dangerous because of the way reality tends to "get even" with you later...
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2012, 10:37:12 AM »
of course, the spheres are much stronger when combined. For example, entropy + prime can combine to create a semipermanent hex affecting an area or an object, or even some person's fate. Powerful effects can be created, even game changing ones. But as entropy is natively so general, you can be very creative with it, in a way you can't with most disciplines. Although you can't change a bullets flight without time, you can make it so the wound just goes straight through flesh with minimal damage, or richochets off a bone preventing further damage... Maybe an involuntary muscle contraction stiffened your muscles just enough to change the path the bullet took when it hit you, or any other explanation.... As long as it's within the realm of probability, you can affect it with entropy, and with enough justification, it can continue coincidental, and therefore avoid paradox. That said, Jhor is a very significant setback, and entropy has a way of accumulating nasty amounts of resonance... Messing with fate is dangerous because of the way reality tends to "get even" with you later...

I do understand what you're saying, because Entropy can do so very much, but I just want to point out that all of the bullet examples can be done with either Force or Life, making the three spheres equal in that regard.
They are all very useful, in their own ways. Some more useful in certain situations than in others. Really, if you want to make this about versatility while maintaining coincidental, that belongs to Spirit, because you can summon forth an invisible to everyone but you creature to do what it is you want.
And since spirits tend to want Quint too, all you need is someone with Prime 2 or 3 to "feed" the spirit as payment. Though more powerful spirits will have other or additional costs.

Again though, this is roleplaying focused, not rollplaying focused.
And none of us has anywhere near enough experience with the ways that these things will actually come into play to really say. I'd rather not get caught in any "Ivory Tower Traps" with going "ooh shiny" on things that may well be no where near as good as initial impressions.
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Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2012, 11:10:08 AM »
@All: I'm going to ask for a board and all of you can create a thread for your character. That way we can discuss stuff in a much cleaner way.

@DictumMortuum: I've already used Nan's character sheet & made my entire character & background. It's in the previous page. I'd like to receive some feedback on both of them... If it's approved, if it's not... I got a lot of flaws, and one of them is DM dependent. I created my nemesis in my background, but his character sheet is up to you i guess. I'm also pretty set on being an Orphan, at least at the start of the game... Celestial Choir doesn't fit because my character hates the church in all of it's inceptions, euthanatos doesn't work because my character has a "happier" view on Fate than they do. Cult of Ecstasy could work, because i'm a thrill-seeker & a fatalist, but i don't want to have any ties at the start of the game, and although i'm not totally opposed to being joined into a tradition, i prefer to join them in game if possible.

Great! We'll talk backgrounds later, but for now: you've got one more flaw point (max is 7 points in flaws). Don't edit it out yet though.

Actually, your character is a Chorister, based on your paradigm. Their main connection point is belief in a higher power - that doesn't mean that they are priests; some of them are priests, but not common ones (they can work with magic) :P And their inner conflicts arise from the different belief systems that exist within them (there are so many religions, choristers are not only christians - there are muslim, buddhist, etc). I'm not saying you should definitely be one, but it's fitting and you're already high on Prime.

Being a Thrill-Seeker & Fatalist has nothing to do with being a Cult of Ecstasy or not being one. Being a member of tradition defines your magic style and the bases of your paradigm, not your personality. The Cultists may seem junkies and sex-addicts, but actually, they have one of the most difficult paradigm bases: Ecstasy comes from the latin ex stasis which actually means 'out of stasis'. They want to make people see what the world is really like, without the illusive boundaries of reality. With that in mind, imagine a boring traditional business man, who is awakened and starts distributing kinky sex tapes, because he believes they shock people and as a result that experience enables them to see the world differently (a lot like when you first learn about what sex as an act is, or similar mind-opening experiences); that man is a member of the Cult of Ecstasy, but he might not be always high or dressed as a weirdo or naked 24/7.

The same thing (in concept) is true for the Euthanatos. Not everyone is like a shadowy assassin dressed as Neo with a whole armory underneath their clothes.

And I thank you for it. My character's a rookie, but has a powerful connection to the spirit world, so at the beginning I'll just yell "Hey you, ethereal dude, a roll of cookies if you fry this guy!" and be more specific onceboth me and my character get the hang of it.

Actually, the Call Spirit rote is exactly like that, whether you know the spirit's name or not. To call a specific spirit you need a specialized ritual with many successes, based on how powerful the spirit in question is.

What sphere you think is individually the stronger & why? I think my guess would be entropy, just because it has a mind boggling range of application, and it's subtle enough that if you go about it properly, you don't have to worry so much with paradox as say... with forces.

All spheres are powerful, in their own way. My personal favourites are Correspondence and Mind magic, because almost everything is coincidental (except teleporting, but who doesn't love teleporting :P). Forces is powerful, but it's a lot more intellectual that just being the "fireball" sphere - however most of the stuff you can work with are vulgar. Life is very useful: healing, identify life patterns, make some cosmetic changes on yourself, enhance your body, etc. Matter is similar to Life, but most of the times I just can't find myself as having it very high - most of the times I just go up to 1 or 2 dots, just to combine matter with other spheres. Spirit is the do-it-all sphere, it's extremely versatile, but most stuff comes at a higher price. Prime is often coupled with Spirit (most lesser spirits are fine with some quintessence as a return) and rocks when coupled with other spheres (especially pattern ones - life, matter, forces), but it's powerful on its own, too. Time is awesome, but unless you're careful reality can make you explode like a firework - it's the easier sphere to accumulate large amounts of paradox with (level 3+).

Finally, I'm sorry to say so, but, Entropy (at least in the early levels) is actually the worse sphere. The basic reasoning is that, when with the other spheres you get definitive results, with Entropy you might get them, many effects raise or lower difficulties and/or successes, but one can just be lucky :P That's not to say that Entropy is useless - quite the contrary - no sphere is useless.

The #1 best 1st level sphere goes to Mind, hands down. Where you can just do basic scanning effects with other spheres, with  Mind 1 you can actually have powerful and useful effects (like partitioning your mind!).

Bizzarely for a White Wolf game it doesnt look like any is overwhelmingly better than the others but that is just my first impression.

The casting system rocks! If you don't like that, well, there are not many stuff that make it different from the others.

imho it doesn't really matter. For coincidental effects, entropy can be very useful as you can give probability a little push towards your favor, e.g. sudden gusts of wind or a bursting steam pipe. These examples could also be done using forces and matter, b ut I believe they are stronger towards these purposes, but it takes a little more effort to make the effects coincidental. Like invoking high pressure steam in an arbitrary pipe or shaping a brick wall into a secret door. You couldn't do that with entropy, yet they're (mostly) coincidental.

Actually, you can use Entropy to make gusts or burst a team pipe, but the probability of being useful in times of stress is significantly lower, than, say, using forces. Of course, you could use a rote like "find the weak spot" with entropy, which will enable you to find the spot in an object that you can hit and make it break down into pieces, but you'll have to physically harm/touch the object.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2012, 11:18:42 AM »
All spheres are powerful, in their own way. My personal favourites are Correspondence and Mind magic,

Ahh.... Dictum is a pornomancer.

How nostalgic, and appropriate.
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Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2012, 11:29:37 AM »
All spheres are powerful, in their own way. My personal favourites are Correspondence and Mind magic,

Ahh.... Dictum is a pornomancer.

How nostalgic, and appropriate.

Haha :P Last time I was playing with a very young (~17) Order of Hermes character. His main gimmick was correspondence and his paradigm was built around Aristoteles' theory of the five elements. I loved mind combined with correspondence so much (I started with Corr 3, Forces 1, Mind 1, Time 2), that I took it all the way from level 1 to level 3 :P

I was the cabal's connection everywhere, since we were playing in a time that shell phones were not invented yet.
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Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2012, 11:49:05 AM »
I asked for a board. I'll post a link here when the board's ready.
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Offline brujon

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2012, 01:12:26 PM »
Well, yes you *might* get stuff to happen... But when you start using entropy to force other mages into accumulating paradox, that's when you realize entropy is the strongest sphere. You just have to force a mage into a botch and suddenly he can't cast anything because of the accumulating difficulties. In a game where everything has to do with chance, when you can manipulate it in your favor, you win. Upping the difficulty for a guy to hit you, or upping your chances to hit the guy... It has all to do with the odds, it's all in the dice.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2012, 01:39:53 PM »
Well, yes you *might* get stuff to happen... But when you start using entropy to force other mages into accumulating paradox, that's when you realize entropy is the strongest sphere. You just have to force a mage into a botch and suddenly he can't cast anything because of the accumulating difficulties. In a game where everything has to do with chance, when you can manipulate it in your favor, you win. Upping the difficulty for a guy to hit you, or upping your chances to hit the guy... It has all to do with the odds, it's all in the dice.

If you notice, I did say that Entropy is the worse sphere in the early levels. An effect like that you're describing would require you to affect a life pattern, so you need Entropy 4. Entropy 5 is probably the most overpowered sphere level ever.
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Offline littha

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2012, 01:47:43 PM »
Entropy 9 is better  :lol

Though by the looks of it all of the Arch-spheres are super powerful.

Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2012, 01:50:36 PM »
Entropy 9 is better  :lol

Though by the looks of it all of the Arch-spheres are super powerful.

Yeah :P That book :P Why did they print it :P

//edit: we're live -> http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=106.0
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2012, 01:53:16 PM »
Entropy 9 is better  :lol

Though by the looks of it all of the Arch-spheres are super powerful.

Yeah :P That book :P Why did they print it :P

Check its print date. Then check the print date for Elysium for Vampire. And so on. They were trying to make epic rules for all of the games.
Unless, of course, we can take the "Age" background too :plotting.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2012, 05:56:16 PM »
ariasderros, come make a character with us!

Offline PipTheBlue

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2012, 06:49:36 PM »
I'll have to postpone further character design until the weekend. I have things to celebrate the next couple of days.

Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2012, 09:26:03 AM »
I'll have to postpone further character design until the weekend. I have things to celebrate the next couple of days.

No problem!
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2012, 11:07:43 AM »
ariasderros, come make a character with us!
To borrow statement.

I'll have to postpone further character design until the weekend. I have A bunch of stupid things and people to celebrate deal with the next couple of days.

To wit: I'm in the process of explaining to people why my IRL campaign is shutting down because I am being forced to kick out 2 players who's behavior has been completely unacceptable and even immoral.
On top of other real life stuff.
Will post a lot on Sunday or Monday.

I am still watching the threads and reading, I just haven't had the time with all of this crap going on to contribute.


@Pip
Quick question about your character: How much do you know about the People, their beliefs or their history?
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Offline PipTheBlue

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2012, 05:41:14 PM »
@arias: "The People"? Could you clarify?

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Any interest in a cWoD Mage:the Ascension game?
« Reply #99 on: June 07, 2012, 12:43:49 PM »
@arias: "The People"? Could you clarify?

Gypsies.
Some of their beliefs actually do go very well with Mage.
Actually, I don't know of any that don't.

Also, they were so heavily persecuted around the world at that time (even in the USA, laws were being passed at the time specifically targeting them), so many of them were going to France at that time because, even though there was just as much animosity toward them there, France had been through so much that it was still going through that most people didn't have the time or energy to bother with the People.

Which makes the combo of a gypsy in 1830 France perfect. :)

EDIT: > CRAP: just realized that Nan is the member of the People, not you  :facepalm
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 12:50:15 PM by ariasderros »
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