The Sacred Cow Slaughterhouse: Ideas D&D's better without

[oslecamo]

But it doesn't just apply to the real world examples.  Two of the five concrete examples are pure D&D constructs.  Then you add the possibility of racial pantheons from F&P. (I will definitely be looking into that when I get home.)

It applies to two Eberron examples (and, let's face it, Eberron is kinda weird) and three they lifted wholesale from real life. So the vast majority of D&D settings are inexplicably monotheistic.

There's a whole universe of diference between "I have this god I like more" and "I only believe in one god".

Single-god priests always were the majority.  There were no temples to the greek pantheon as a whole, there were temples to Zeus, and then temples to Athenas, and then temples to Aphrodite and so on, each with their own specialized priests with their own traditions.

Similarly that nordic warrior priest totally believes Freya exists and probably respects her temples, but he won't be able to manipulate love emotions because he personally prefers Thor.

But main point being, it's already been proven that worshiping pantheons isn't taboo in D&D. You can do it just fine. It may not have as much support as worshiping single gods, but it's statistically impossible for the developers to produce the exact same amount of support material for every thematic out there.

[veekie]

Actually, the other two pantheons from D&Dg are tight pantheons as well, and a cleric can worship the whole pantheon, just as they can with the Asgardian pantheon.

So, we have:
The Sovereign Host
The Dark Six
The Olympian Pantheon
The Pharaohic Pantheon
The Asgardian Pantheon

Five pantheons, without looking very hard.

Also, IIRC, in Faiths and Pantheons, each of the races has a racial pantheon with four to eight racial gods (always including the Greyhawk standard racial deity).  I don't know if any of them are worshipable as a pantheon, but it wouldn't take a DM any more than five minutes to work up how to do it in his own game.

I think Eberron's approach is the most "realistic," in that you have some individual deities, as well as some pantheons.  This most closely mirrors what we've seen in the real world.

Am I the only one bothered that their 'pick whole pantheons thing' only applies to the real world? Is it that hard to just clump gods together? :/

Or at they all asocial loners? :O

Keep in mind that the Dark Six are actually splintered off the Sovereign Host, they originally were the 'darker' gods of the pantheon before differences led to a schism proper. However, Eberron has more than that.


That said, Eberron is one of the better settings for fantasy religions, which just serves to highlight how limited the pantheons in most of D&D are. You have:
-GrecoRoman Pantheon in the form of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, where everyone worships every friendly god based on their needs, and propitiates enemy gods to deflect them. The priesthood is largely specialized, but they do honor the rest of the pantheon as needed, and there is a means to act as a pantheistic cleric within the limitations of the D&D system.
-Monotheistic Silver Flame, in the best traditions of the knights templar.
-Ancestor Worship for the elves
-Secret cults in the form of the Blood of Vol
-Extremist/Doomsday cults in many stripes.
-God-Emperor(to be) in the form of the Lord of Blades
-Brainwashing cult for the Path of Inspiration
-Buddhist-like philosophical cult for the Path of Light
-Weird stuff like the Becoming God

Pretty much the only one I can't find is shamanistic, which D&D doesn't mechanically support very well to begin with.

Contrast instead, Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms as the big names. Followers of a given god do so exclusively, heck, in FR, never dedicating to a deity leads to a bad afterlife, which in turn gives you a fairly unbalanced personalities in any faith. Gods are added alone, even if they are nominally in a pantheon, furthering their causes while blind and deaf to their pantheon-mates. The smith-god makes stuff, but instead of forging divine arms for his allies, he simply creates without purpose, etc. People worship one god exclusively, to varying degrees of zeal.

That's the issue, more or less. The exceptions are pretty much only when they import real world pantheons...which are naturally pantheistic because that's how it is over here.

[Bauglir]

We should get rid of the d20. Bell curves 4 lyfe!

... But seriously, yeah, Clerics of Pelor (for example) aren't monotheistic, he's just their patron. That's like saying Dominicans reject the existence of all non-Dominic saints.

[dither]

The asterisk. I think D&D would be better without the asterisk.

Just sayin'.


--Dither

[Sinfire Titan]

The asterisk. I think D&D would be better without the asterisk.

Just sayin'.


--Dither

You mean ampersand?

[Gazzien]

The asterisk. I think D&D would be better without the asterisk.

Just sayin'.


--Dither

You mean ampersand?

Nah, footnotes are a pain. I'm with him on that one.

[TenaciousJ]

Exotic weapon proficiencies.  Most exotic weapons are not worth a feat tax, and the few that offer new options are already tied into specific builds anyway.  Give players a way to learn how to use exotic weapons over time through actual use instead of spending a feat.  Make that process a class feature of the fighter if you want a fighter to have a reason to exist without just giving fighters powers.

[Sinfire Titan]

Exotic weapon proficiencies.  Most exotic weapons are not worth a feat tax, and the few that offer new options are already tied into specific builds anyway.  Give players a way to learn how to use exotic weapons over time through actual use instead of spending a feat.  Make that process a class feature of the fighter if you want a fighter to have a reason to exist without just giving fighters powers.

I've considered turning EWP into a Skill Trick myself.

[dither]

The asterisk. I think D&D would be better without the asterisk.

Just sayin'.


--Dither

You mean ampersand?

Nah, footnotes are a pain. I'm with him on that one.

You know, I was going to do the facepalm thing, 'cause what I meant to type was ampersand but footnotes really are a pain. Lol.


--Dither

[TenaciousJ]

Exotic weapon proficiencies.  Most exotic weapons are not worth a feat tax, and the few that offer new options are already tied into specific builds anyway.  Give players a way to learn how to use exotic weapons over time through actual use instead of spending a feat.  Make that process a class feature of the fighter if you want a fighter to have a reason to exist without just giving fighters powers.

I've considered turning EWP into a Skill Trick myself.

In my own games, I allow each successful combat using an exotic weapon to reduce the non-proficiency penalty until it hits 0.  It tends to work out because I encourage a lot of group buffing when people are making characters.

[Agrippa]

Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards and the attitudes that go along with it need to fade into oblivion.

[Raineh Daze]

Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards and the attitudes that go along with it need to fade into oblivion.

I'm not so sure it's the power curve that's really at fault, more how steep the gradient gets.

[Unbeliever]

Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards and the attitudes that go along with it need to fade into oblivion.

This might be orthogonal, but this shit really really bugs me.  Click on the link Agrippa's included, it won't take you long.  I'll wait here for a second. 

Ok, the "source material" for D&D includes ... Raistlin!  The author even concludes with:  "Magic-Users are meant to be gods.  Just look at Raistlin.  Deal with it, pussies." 

Anyone else catch the weirdness there?  How does Raistlin, who I'm pretty sure is a product of D&D (he does come color-coded for your convenience!) then get to serve as source material for D&D?  As many have noted on these forums, spellcasters in D&D willfully defy a great many of the fantasy genre conventions. 

[Libertad]

Yeah, that guy's blowing smoke out of his ass.  He's also an Old School Edition Warrior who doesn't know what he's talking about when he lambasts 3rd Edition for being "balanced."  The more rational and reasonable Old School gamers I've chatted with view the removal of restrictions and limits of spellcasters in 3E as a mistake.

[dither]

Yeah, that guy's blowing smoke out of his ass.  He's also an Old School Edition Warrior who doesn't know what he's talking about when he lambasts 3rd Edition for being "balanced."  The more rational and reasonable Old School gamers I've chatted with view the removal of restrictions and limits of spellcasters in 3E as a mistake.

I think encouraging players at the table to play entirely different games is generally a bad idea -- I mean, 4e did a lot to put every character on the same timetable with at-will, encounter, and daily powers -- but the suggestion that warriors should be trying to do X, while magic-users should be doing Y, and thieves should prioritize Z, while paladins should want AA... it's hard enough to get players to stop quoting Monty Python long enough to make a decision about who's going to open the door.

Now, I'm totally for players making their own decisions about going in opposite directions, and working that conflict into the game for the greater enjoyment of the group, but it should be a decision made by the players -- not enforced by the rules.

Otherwise you have the Jedi trying to duel the Sith while everyone else tries to shoot him. :/


--Dither

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
That said, Eberron is one of the better settings for fantasy religions, which just serves to highlight how limited the pantheons in most of D&D are. You have:
-GrecoRoman Pantheon in the form of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, where everyone worships every friendly god based on their needs, and propitiates enemy gods to deflect them. The priesthood is largely specialized, but they do honor the rest of the pantheon as needed, and there is a means to act as a pantheistic cleric within the limitations of the D&D system.
-Monotheistic Silver Flame, in the best traditions of the knights templar.
-Ancestor Worship for the elves
-Secret cults in the form of the Blood of Vol
-Extremist/Doomsday cults in many stripes.
-God-Emperor(to be) in the form of the Lord of Blades
-Brainwashing cult for the Path of Inspiration
-Buddhist-like philosophical cult for the Path of Light
-Weird stuff like the Becoming God

Pretty much the only one I can't find is shamanistic, which D&D doesn't mechanically support very well to begin with.

This is incorrect actually. Monotheism is belief in a single god and the faith of the Silver Flame doesn't have much to do with that. The Silver Flame itself is more of an impersonal force for good than an actual deity. You can totally believe in other gods while following the Silver Flame. Heck, Tira Miron herself was a paladin of Dol Arrah.

Personally I'd put the Silver Flame under "weird stuff".

Contrast instead, Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms as the big names. Followers of a given god do so exclusively, heck, in FR, never dedicating to a deity leads to a bad afterlife, which in turn gives you a fairly unbalanced personalities in any faith. Gods are added alone, even if they are nominally in a pantheon, furthering their causes while blind and deaf to their pantheon-mates. The smith-god makes stuff, but instead of forging divine arms for his allies, he simply creates without purpose, etc. People worship one god exclusively, to varying degrees of zeal.

That's the issue, more or less. The exceptions are pretty much only when they import real world pantheons...which are naturally pantheistic because that's how it is over here.

In FR at least, the average peasent offers prayers ot many deites. Umberlee is prayed to when the peasent goes on a sea voyage, Sune is prayed to when wooing a lover, etc.

[Agrippa]

Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards and the attitudes that go along with it need to fade into oblivion.

This might be orthogonal, but this shit really really bugs me.  Click on the link Agrippa's included, it won't take you long.  I'll wait here for a second. 

Ok, the "source material" for D&D includes ... Raistlin!  The author even concludes with:  "Magic-Users are meant to be gods.  Just look at Raistlin.  Deal with it, pussies." 

Anyone else catch the weirdness there?  How does Raistlin, who I'm pretty sure is a product of D&D (he does come color-coded for your convenience!) then get to serve as source material for D&D?  As many have noted on these forums, spellcasters in D&D willfully defy a great many of the fantasy genre conventions.

To be fair I think he means appendix N when he's talking about the sources of D&D. But yeah, he is an obnoxious edition warrior.

[Raineh Daze]

<snip>
That said, Eberron is one of the better settings for fantasy religions, which just serves to highlight how limited the pantheons in most of D&D are. You have:
-GrecoRoman Pantheon in the form of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, where everyone worships every friendly god based on their needs, and propitiates enemy gods to deflect them. The priesthood is largely specialized, but they do honor the rest of the pantheon as needed, and there is a means to act as a pantheistic cleric within the limitations of the D&D system.
-Monotheistic Silver Flame, in the best traditions of the knights templar.
-Ancestor Worship for the elves
-Secret cults in the form of the Blood of Vol
-Extremist/Doomsday cults in many stripes.
-God-Emperor(to be) in the form of the Lord of Blades
-Brainwashing cult for the Path of Inspiration
-Buddhist-like philosophical cult for the Path of Light
-Weird stuff like the Becoming God

Pretty much the only one I can't find is shamanistic, which D&D doesn't mechanically support very well to begin with.

This is incorrect actually. Monotheism is belief in a single god and the faith of the Silver Flame doesn't have much to do with that. The Silver Flame itself is more of an impersonal force for good than an actual deity. You can totally believe in other gods while following the Silver Flame. Heck, Tira Miron herself was a paladin of Dol Arrah.

Personally I'd put the Silver Flame under "weird stuff".

Contrast instead, Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms as the big names. Followers of a given god do so exclusively, heck, in FR, never dedicating to a deity leads to a bad afterlife, which in turn gives you a fairly unbalanced personalities in any faith. Gods are added alone, even if they are nominally in a pantheon, furthering their causes while blind and deaf to their pantheon-mates. The smith-god makes stuff, but instead of forging divine arms for his allies, he simply creates without purpose, etc. People worship one god exclusively, to varying degrees of zeal.

That's the issue, more or less. The exceptions are pretty much only when they import real world pantheons...which are naturally pantheistic because that's how it is over here.

In FR at least, the average peasent offers prayers ot many deites. Umberlee is prayed to when the peasent goes on a sea voyage, Sune is prayed to when wooing a lover, etc.

To the Wall of the Faithless for  the peasantry!

Actually, that would explain the sheer size of it. :/

[Unbeliever]

Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards and the attitudes that go along with it need to fade into oblivion.

This might be orthogonal, but this shit really really bugs me.  Click on the link Agrippa's included, it won't take you long.  I'll wait here for a second. 

Ok, the "source material" for D&D includes ... Raistlin!  The author even concludes with:  "Magic-Users are meant to be gods.  Just look at Raistlin.  Deal with it, pussies." 

Anyone else catch the weirdness there?  How does Raistlin, who I'm pretty sure is a product of D&D (he does come color-coded for your convenience!) then get to serve as source material for D&D?  As many have noted on these forums, spellcasters in D&D willfully defy a great many of the fantasy genre conventions.

To be fair I think he means appendix N when he's talking about the sources of D&D. But yeah, he is an obnoxious edition warrior.

Thanks for the link.  I knew that was the case though didn't have Appendix N lying handy. 

The problem -- and this is part of what I wanted to call out -- is that the source material listed in that appendix in no way supports his stance.  Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't read everything on that list.  I have, however, read REH, Leiber, Lovecraft, Moocock, Saberhagen, Zelazny, and Tolkien.  And, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything that lines up with the D&D wizard he's pushing for. 

Even the high magic books on the list -- like Amber and Elric -- treat magic as far less of an "I win" button than the author thinks it should be in D&D.  Elric and Brand, for instance, are some of the most powerful spellcasters in their respective worlds (Elric, for instance, accidentally summons the kind of water elementals), and they (a) do not reshape reality on a whim, and (b) are threatened by the top tier warriors in their respective settings (e.g., Brand v. Gerard, Benedict). 


P.S.:  this may be a total digression.  Apologies.  Like I said, it just really bugs me. 

[veekie]

Yeah, having read Elric, magic never actually solves anything, only changes the nature of the problem and the prices that must be paid,  except when the threat is powerful magic in it's own right, then the magical power is simply a prerequisite to even being able to fight on your own terms.