Making casters MAD...

[xaotiq1]

I could SWEAR that there was a thread about this either here, or on another forum; but my search checks are rolling solid 1's.

So, the idea is to harken back to AD&D 2nd edition, but leaving out the class specific bits so that mental ability scores worked in the following ways:

INT: This stat would control the highest level of spell, and how many spells of each level that character could learn. Yes, this means that all casters would have that particular limitation. Wizards and archivists would be able to have any number of full pages in a spellbook; but only a certain number of them would be available for memorization.

WIS: WIS would determine the number of bonus spells, if any, a character receives.

CHA: Charisma would determine how hard spells are to resist as well as affecting their ability to penetrate SR.

The question is how, if at all, would this affect the game for full casters? Specifically the big 4 (Wiz, Sor, Clr, Dru). I know it will make things harder on partial casters; especially those that are already MAD. Thoughts?? 

[Bauglir]

Just as a heads up, you'd need to modify how SR works. Probably let creatures add their Wis to it or something. You don't currently get ability modifiers to SR checks. You should probably also have Charisma modify touch attacks made with spells or something, so that it's harder to get out of needing the stat by focusing on certain kinds of spells. Might be a replacement for the SR idea, or an addition.

That noted, I'm not sure how effective it'll be. I doubt it will help balance meaningfully - the problem there has always been the Nice Things dichotomy between spells and not-spells, but it will help mirror the "Need All The Physical Stats" thing that mundanes have to deal with, and encourage more diverse character-building by forcing you to choose what you want to focus on the most.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Gandalf did konk a few Orcs on the head.


Perhaps all casters have to be a Gish in one way or another.
Str for all combat, Dex for all ranged, Con of course as usual
but make it more necessary with less healing available.
Int for # of spells known mister Cloistered Cleric.
Wis for spell levels, Cha for the "intensity" of the save DC.

[PsyBomb]

You're one step and a half away from making a generic "Spellcaster" class.

Two choices:

Prepared or Spontaneous? If Spontaneous, switch the position of Int and Cha.
Arcane, divine, or Nature list? (Yes, I know Nature is Divine spells, but the lists they use are largely distinct)

Boom, you have the ability to define Wizard, Sorc, Cleric, Favored Soul, Druid, and a sixth class being a spontaneous Natural Caster.

[kitep]

I think the effect would be that those who don't optimize will be hit hard, while those that do optimize will hardly notice it, they'll just max out CHA, as basically you're turning wizards into sorcerors.

INT: This stat would control the highest level of spell, and how many spells of each level that character could learn. Yes, this means that all casters would have that particular limitation. Wizards and archivists would be able to have any number of full pages in a spellbook; but only a certain number of them would be available for memorization.

With a +6 stat booster, it's not hard to get INT to 19 so you can cast the highest level spells.  And sorcerors already deal with limited spell selection -- now wizards will pick the same spells.  Optimizers will know the right spells, non-ops won't.

WIS: WIS would determine the number of bonus spells, if any, a character receives.

I'm not sure, but I think by picking the right spells, wizards already handle the spells/day / 15-minute workday problem.  At least optimizers do.

CHA: Charisma would determine how hard spells are to resist as well as affecting their ability to penetrate SR.

This would be the stat people would max out to make sure their spells hit home.  Or they'd simply pick the no-save, no-SR spells.

I realize I was thinking "wizard/sorceror" when I responded, but I imagine it's similar for clerics and other spell-casters as well.

[RobbyPants]

I think the effect would be that those who don't optimize will be hit hard, while those that do optimize will hardly notice it, they'll just max out CHA, as basically you're turning wizards into sorcerors.

INT: This stat would control the highest level of spell, and how many spells of each level that character could learn. Yes, this means that all casters would have that particular limitation. Wizards and archivists would be able to have any number of full pages in a spellbook; but only a certain number of them would be available for memorization.

With a +6 stat booster, it's not hard to get INT to 19 so you can cast the highest level spells.  And sorcerors already deal with limited spell selection -- now wizards will pick the same spells.  Optimizers will know the right spells, non-ops won't.

WIS: WIS would determine the number of bonus spells, if any, a character receives.

I'm not sure, but I think by picking the right spells, wizards already handle the spells/day / 15-minute workday problem.  At least optimizers do.

CHA: Charisma would determine how hard spells are to resist as well as affecting their ability to penetrate SR.

This would be the stat people would max out to make sure their spells hit home.  Or they'd simply pick the no-save, no-SR spells.

I realize I was thinking "wizard/sorceror" when I responded, but I imagine it's similar for clerics and other spell-casters as well.

This is pretty much everything I was going to say.

Cha is the most important stat, so everyone would max that. On the off chance that they were relying on spells that don't offer saves (be it goodies like Solid Fog, or things like buffs), they'd pump their Wis instead.

Int is important to maintain full functionality, but not beyond a 19. As kitep said, it's easy to get a 19 in your Int by level 17. In addition, if you have an idea how long the campaign will last, you can get away with an even lower Int score. So, if the DM says "I plan on running this campaign to around level 8 or 10", you put a 14 in your Int and call it a day. Bump it up to 15 with your level 18 stat boost if the game looks like it will go past level 8.

[oslecamo]

Int is important to maintain full functionality, but not beyond a 19. As kitep said, it's easy to get a 19 in your Int by level 17. In addition, if you have an idea how long the campaign will last, you can get away with an even lower Int score. So, if the DM says "I plan on running this campaign to around level 8 or 10", you put a 14 in your Int and call it a day. Bump it up to 15 with your level 18 stat boost if the game looks like it will go past level 8.

Except Ability damage/drain exist. Keeping Int at minimum needed is screaming for that ability score to be hit and suddenly you can't acess any of your spells above cantrips. Plus heck, 36k gold isn't exactly spare change even at 17th level.

But bottom point is, with this system a caster cannot afford to just dump either mental stat (at least not whitout cuting down their options significantly), just like melees can't afford to dump either physical score. The wizard can't dump Wis unless he feels like having just one spell per day at first level, neither can he drop Cha if he wants his Color Spray and Sleep to do something, and he needs at least Int 11 (more probably 12 for when he reaches 3rd level). Or what, he drops greases that still offer a reflex save and only last 1 round anyway?

[RobbyPants]

Int is important to maintain full functionality, but not beyond a 19. As kitep said, it's easy to get a 19 in your Int by level 17. In addition, if you have an idea how long the campaign will last, you can get away with an even lower Int score. So, if the DM says "I plan on running this campaign to around level 8 or 10", you put a 14 in your Int and call it a day. Bump it up to 15 with your level 18 stat boost if the game looks like it will go past level 8.

Except Ability damage/drain exist. Keeping Int at minimum needed is screaming for that ability score to be hit and suddenly you can't acess any of your spells above cantrips. Plus heck, 36k gold isn't exactly spare change even at 17th level.

Good point.

But bottom point is, with this system a caster cannot afford to just dump either mental stat (at least not whitout cuting down their options significantly), just like melees can't afford to dump either physical score. The wizard can't dump Wis unless he feels like having just one spell per day at first level, neither can he drop Cha if he wants his Color Spray and Sleep to do something, and he needs at least Int 11 (more probably 12 for when he reaches 3rd level). Or what, he drops greases that still offer a reflex save and only last 1 round anyway?

Well, casters tend to be very hit-or-miss at 1st level anyway. Unless you're a druid (who fights okay and gets a second fighter as a class feature) or a cleric who can fight pretty well, you're too squishy to do much that doesn't involve casting. As you gain levels, the bonus slots from Wis will affect casters less and less. You'll have enough spells from your class that they will be able to carry you.

As for Grease specifically, it does suck at level 1 because of the duration; however, the strength of that spell doesn't come from the Reflex save, but from the Balance check.

[Bauglir]

I'd also point out that, depending on how the spellbook vs spells known thing is implemented (IE you should really have some significant downtime in order to use a spellbook to change spells known, say a month of study), restricting your spell access with Int does cut down on some of the always-have-the-right-spell cheese that wizards are known for. If you set it up so that the numbers provide bonus spells known over baseline Sorcerer progression for a high Int, then you're probably helping equalize the caster classes a bit, if not doing jack for casters vs mundanes balance.

That said, the anti-drain buffer is probably more important, and easier to analyze.

[oslecamo]

But bottom point is, with this system a caster cannot afford to just dump either mental stat (at least not whitout cuting down their options significantly), just like melees can't afford to dump either physical score. The wizard can't dump Wis unless he feels like having just one spell per day at first level, neither can he drop Cha if he wants his Color Spray and Sleep to do something, and he needs at least Int 11 (more probably 12 for when he reaches 3rd level). Or what, he drops greases that still offer a reflex save and only last 1 round anyway?

Well, casters tend to be very hit-or-miss at 1st level anyway. Unless you're a druid (who fights okay and gets a second fighter as a class feature) or a cleric who can fight pretty well, you're too squishy to do much that doesn't involve casting. As you gain levels, the bonus slots from Wis will affect casters less and less. You'll have enough spells from your class that they will be able to carry you.

Not all spells slots are equal. A few high level spell slots are worth much more than a bunch of low level ones.

Making casters  break reality in big scale less times per day sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

As for Grease specifically, it does suck at level 1 because of the duration; however, the strength of that spell doesn't come from the Reflex save, but from the Balance check.

I swear that's the most overhyped spell. DC 10 balance or you can't move. Oh noes, I guess all those enemies with ranged attacks/teleports/flying/natural high dex/ranks in balance are utterly at the caster's mercy now! 

Seriously, I sometimes wonder if all those "caster classes are unstopable" guys only ever played in games where the enemies cosnsist solely of dumb brutes with low land movement speed and only melee offense.

But then, last time I checked on a discussion of that kind, dragons mysteriously didn't get skill points, feats, breath weapons, natural magic or any of their default abilities when facing casters (whereas when facing mundane melees said dragon got all of those and more), so you never know.

[RobbyPants]

As for Grease specifically, it does suck at level 1 because of the duration; however, the strength of that spell doesn't come from the Reflex save, but from the Balance check.

I swear that's the most overhyped spell. DC 10 balance or you can't move. Oh noes, I guess all those enemies with ranged attacks/teleports/flying/natural high dex/ranks in balance are utterly at the caster's mercy now! 

Seriously, I sometimes wonder if all those "caster classes are unstopable" guys only ever played in games where the enemies cosnsist solely of dumb brutes with low land movement speed and only melee offense.

But then, last time I checked on a discussion of that kind, dragons mysteriously didn't get skill points, feats, breath weapons, natural magic or any of their default abilities when facing casters (whereas when facing mundane melees said dragon got all of those and more), so you never know.

Oh, it's certainly not the be all and end all of casting, and it's not good at high levels, but if you roll a Balance check and have less than five ranks (almost all monsters do), you're flat-footed.

[zugschef]

As for Grease specifically, it does suck at level 1 because of the duration; however, the strength of that spell doesn't come from the Reflex save, but from the Balance check.

I swear that's the most overhyped spell. DC 10 balance or you can't move. Oh noes, I guess all those enemies with ranged attacks/teleports/flying/natural high dex/ranks in balance are utterly at the caster's mercy now! 

Seriously, I sometimes wonder if all those "caster classes are unstopable" guys only ever played in games where the enemies cosnsist solely of dumb brutes with low land movement speed and only melee offense.

But then, last time I checked on a discussion of that kind, dragons mysteriously didn't get skill points, feats, breath weapons, natural magic or any of their default abilities when facing casters (whereas when facing mundane melees said dragon got all of those and more), so you never know.

Oh, it's certainly not the be all and end all of casting, and it's not good at high levels, but if you roll a Balance check and have less than five ranks (almost all monsters do), you're flat-footed.

Grease kills golems.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I used to (like...this idea's at least a decade old now) consider making them all more MAD, might still do it in the future.  My idea was to split casting parameters into 2 categories, and giving casters all two "casting stats" instead of one.  "Spell Knowledge" and "Spell Power."

2) In this setting, every spellcaster has TWO casting ability scores.  The first represents spell knowledge and the second represents spell power.  Spell knowledge includes the minimum score required to cast spells of a certain level (10 + spell level) as well as bonus spells per day.  Spell power includes save DC calculations (usually 10 + spell level + ability modifier) and caster power checks.  Caster power checks are a concept imported from Arcana Evolved and are like caster level checks, except the relevant ability modifier is added as well.  Thus, it is d20 + caster level + ability modifier.  Caster power checks most often are used when there is an actively opposed caster level check, such as two casters struggling for the mental domination of a creature.  Feats and class abilities may allow for the use of caster power checks in the place of caster level checks (to overcome SR easier, for instance) in certain situations, for certain spells, or a number of times per day.   As a general rule, Wisdom always pertains to spell knowledge and Charisma always pertains to spell power.  Intelligence varies, depending on what the other ability score is.  Two exceptions to this are wizards, who use Intelligence for knowledge and Wisdom for power, and Warlocks, who completely lack the knowledge component for their invocations and thus use solely Charisma for power.

Bard:
 Spell Knowledge: Intelligence
 Spell Power: Charisma

Cleric:
 Spell Knowledge: Wisdom
 Spell Power: Charisma

Druid:
 Spell Knowledge: Wisdom
 Spell Power: Intelligence

Paladin:
 Spell Knowledge: Wisdom
 Spell Power: Charisma

Ranger:
 Spell Knowledge: Wisdom
 Spell Power: Intelligence

Sorcerer:
 Spell Knowledge: Wisdom
 Spell Power: Charisma

Wizard:
 Spell Knowledge: Intelligence
 Spell Power: Wisdom

Of course, some characters might not care about Power at all (particularly the part-time casters like Ranger and Paladin), or might decide they don't need any more Knowledge than 10 + highest possible spell level.

Also had this idea, probably doesn't change much...

(click to show/hide)

The hours a caster must rest before preparing her spells is equal to the highest level of spells the casting class can attain, to a maximum of 8 hours.  Thus, paladins and rangers would only need four hours of rest, and bards six.  The character must still get a full night’s rest, but for a Ranger with a Ring of Sustenance, for example, this rule will make a difference.

[taltamir]

@OP: People have explained why this wouldn't work. a few more things of note
Casters are already MAD due to needing con (d4HD is a joke) and dex (limited AC, ranged touch attacks, bad BAB).
Also, making them MAD would not in any way balance them with martials because the issue is spells not attributes
Also, consider that a +2 ability item is 4000gp (4th level), +4 is 16kgp (7th level), +6 is 36kgp (9th level), a caster can start off with 8s in all scores. He will be very underpowered fighter until level4-ish when he gets level 1 spells and cantrips (+2 item +1 levelup), at level 7 he would have 3rd level spells and be able to cast the +4 ability score spell to get access to 4th level ones. 9th level he is fully caught up and no longer has limit on his spells. He never really needed the bonus spells per day and the low DCs just mean he should use a "save:no" spells.

I swear that's the most overhyped spell. DC 10 balance or you can't move. Oh noes, I guess all those enemies with ranged attacks/teleports/flying/natural high dex/ranks in balance are utterly at the caster's mercy now! 

what are you talking about?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm

The target must make a reflex save or fall prone.
Standing up provokes an AoO, prone characters cannot shoot, prone characters have difficulty casting, prone characters have difficulty attacking, and prone characters must spend an action to stand up, and they take -4 penalty to AC vs melee (and +4 bonus vs ranged)
If the target starts its round on the grease they must roll again or fall again.
If the target successfully saved against falling then they can either stand still for the rest of the turn, or try to move, if they try to move they must roll a DC10 balance check to move at half speed, a failure by 5 or more means they fall, a failure by less than 5 means they must roll a reflex save or fall

Also, it can be cast on an enemy weapon to disarm them or on yourself to give yourself a +10 to grapple and escape artist. That +10 is nothing to sneeze at, you can easily beat most opponent by grappling them... or ever better, at mid levels cast grease and silence on the fighter and have him grapple the BBEG

Most DMs would let you set it of fire or get creative with it too (grease the lock, etc).

PS. I swear I remember it stating that if the target is standing on an incline or running across a smooth surface they auto fall without a save but the SRD doesn't mention that...

[StreamOfTheSky]

@OP: People have explained why this wouldn't work. a few more things of note
Casters are already MAD due to needing con (d4HD is a joke) and dex (limited AC, ranged touch attacks, bad BAB).

Either that was sarcasm, or you REALLY need to stop giving advice on D&D.

[zugschef]

Also, it can be cast on an enemy weapon to disarm them or on yourself to give yourself a +10 to grapple and escape artist. That +10 is nothing to sneeze at, you can easily beat most opponent by grappling them... or ever better, at mid levels cast grease and silence on the fighter and have him grapple the BBEG

Are you dumb?

A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin. [emphasis by me]

[X-Codes]

Nobody has pointed out that casters aren't all that attribute dependent at all.  The difference between a Wizard that starts with 15 Int and one that starts with 20 Int is profound for about those first 3-5 levels.  Beyond that it gives the Wizard more viable options (slightly better ability to use save: partial and save: negates spells), but it doesn't necessarily make the character significantly more powerful, just different.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Intuitive, consistent, unifying.

PBMC seal of approval.

[taltamir]

Also, it can be cast on an enemy weapon to disarm them or on yourself to give yourself a +10 to grapple and escape artist. That +10 is nothing to sneeze at, you can easily beat most opponent by grappling them... or ever better, at mid levels cast grease and silence on the fighter and have him grapple the BBEG

Are you dumb?

A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin. [emphasis by me]

1. Calling people dumb is not conductive to having a discussion
2. The BBEG is usually a wizard, being easily defeated by a grapple, now he has +10 to escape it with a single level 1 spell.
3. Even if you are the attacker, grappling revolves around either trying to pin or trying to escape. If trying to escape you are using up your rounds doing nothing but escaping. If trying to pin the enemy, be he the wizard or the party fighter (grease can be cast on an ally) get the +10 bonus to avoid getting pinned on the BBEG's turn.
Here is how it works. Fighter has a grapple mod of 8, BBEG of 12. Wizard casts grease on fighter. Fighter grapples the BBEG.
BBEG tries to pin the fighter, he rolles 1d20+12, fighter resists the pin with 1d20+18.
Fighter tries to pin the BBEG, he rolls 1d20+8, the BBEG resists with a 1d20+12
overall the fighter has the advantage. this is assuming to begin with that the BBEG is a melee guy who is much better grappler than the fighter unbuffed

You could theoretically try to attack them instead of trying to pin them, but its less effective to attack a non pinned opponent. And once pinned you are at a severe disadvantage.

see the grapple rules
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm

[X-Codes]

Uh, no, grappling a wizard is literally groveling at their feet begging them to kill you quickly.