Making casters MAD...

[Bauglir]

I think you're being told Grease is useless for this particular application because it only helps you escape a grapple, and if you need to escape a grapple that you started then you've necessarily wasted your time. And time is one of the most valuable resources in the game.

[X-Codes]

I think you're being told Grease is useless for this particular application because it only helps you escape a grapple, and if you need to escape a grapple that you started then you've necessarily wasted your time. And time is one of the most valuable resources in the game.

Also, nobody ever called grease useless.  The worst it's been labeled is "overhyped," which is fairly accurate.

[taltamir]

Also, nobody ever called grease useless.  The worst it's been labeled is "overhyped," which is fairly accurate.

You are right, s/he didn't use the word useless.
The exact words were "the most overhyped", which is probably a gross exaggeration (even if the spell is overhyped, is it the MOST overhyped them them all?)

I think you're being told Grease is useless for this particular application because it only helps you escape a grapple, and if you need to escape a grapple that you started then you've necessarily wasted your time. And time is one of the most valuable resources in the game.

It is not the only thing it does.
You can use it to escape grapple, or you can use it to escape a pin while remaining in grapple. This means you can pin the enemy but the enemy has a very tough time pinning you.

The results of a pin:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple

If You’re Pinning an Opponent
You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.

You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt.

You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa).

You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent.

If You’re Pinned by an Opponent
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

A pinned enemy can NOT cast dimension door because he can't speak (unless he has silent spell)
Escaping a pin does NOT end the grapple (hence the bonus is not useless).
A pinned enemy can't attack you, but you can attack them. That is, if neither is pinned, both can deal damage to each other during a grapple, if one side is pinned, they can take damage but can't deal damage until they escape the pin.
Also, the entire party gets an effective +4 to hit someone you are pinning.

[X-Codes]

Yes, it is.  It's a decent spell, but frankly there's better stuff.  If you have a high casting ability modifier, then Sleep is better early, and utility spells are better late.  The only time Grease is a good spell is if you need a first-level save-or-lose that's not dependent on your casting ability.

[Raineh Daze]

Yes, it is.  It's a decent spell, but frankly there's better stuff.  If you have a high casting ability modifier, then Sleep is better early, and utility spells are better late.  The only time Grease is a good spell is if you need a first-level save-or-lose that's not dependent on your casting ability.

Or rogues. XD

[CaptRory]

I like having different spells for different things. And different classes can benefit from different styles of magic. Bards benefit from less direct magic for example. Or enemies with Spell Resistance can be overcome by not using spells on them directly. My party at level one or two got the jump on a bunch of Drow looting an antique store and forced their surrender with Web and Grease spells. They really couldn't move and we were peppering them from outside the shop with ranged weapons. XD

[taltamir]

Yes, it is.  It's a decent spell, but frankly there's better stuff.  If you have a high casting ability modifier, then Sleep is better early, and utility spells are better late.  The only time Grease is a good spell is if you need a first-level save-or-lose that's not dependent on your casting ability.

Or if you banned enchantment and the enemy is not susceptible to glitterdust.

It is a fairly situational spell, but being situational compares favorably to most level 1 spells (at least when cast by a level 1 caster, some start shining at higher levels)

Oh, for some reason I always remembered the following tidbit as being a rule instead of merely a suggestion for houserule
PHB p237

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a
successful Reflex save or fall.
...
The DM should adjust saving throws by circumstance. For example, a creature charging down an incline that is suddenly greased has little chance to avoid the effect, but its ability to exit the affected area is almost assured (whether it wants to or not).

The SRD cut this bit out, probably because its vague and non specific

[X-Codes]

Or if you banned enchantment...

Color Spray.  Cause Fear.  Silent Image.  These are just core spells, too.  If you leave core, you can even find a Conjuration-based spell that's arguably better: Sticky Floor in Races of the Dragon.  You are talking to the man that made a personal project out of finding the best damn spells in the game and is in the process of making his list into a handbook.  I'm not so conceited to think that my opinion is the only one that matters, but when I say Grease is decent, I think it's safe to say I've taken all the garbage you keep harping on about into consideration and came up with the conclusion that it's only a decent spell.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Yes but it isn't sorted by spell level, so its not easily browseable... 

[X-Codes]

Yes but it isn't sorted by spell level, so its not easily browseable... 

I'm working on one that is.  Slowly.  It will eventually get done.

Hey, I've still got a LOT of stuff to write.  Do you know how many spells WotC published?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Yes. I counted just over 10k

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Wow ... 
Somebody was getting paid per page.


4 spells per level, 10 levels of spells, into 10k
= 250 separate full caster spell "list"-s.

[Leviathan]

How many spellbooks would you need to hold one copy of every published Wizard spell? How many spellbooks would a Wizard need just to hold the cantrips? If we let the Wizard use cheese to expand his list, how many spellbooks are needed to hold every spell that a Wizard could prepare?

[Gazzien]

How many spellbooks would you need to hold one copy of every published Wizard spell? How many spellbooks would a Wizard need just to hold the cantrips? If we let the Wizard use cheese to expand his list, how many spellbooks are needed to hold every spell that a Wizard could prepare?

I believe another one of my group said there are 64 cantrips last session (he just made a wizard with ALL of them in his spellbook), so it's only a single one for cantrips.

[Leviathan]

How many spellbooks would you need to hold one copy of every published Wizard spell? How many spellbooks would a Wizard need just to hold the cantrips? If we let the Wizard use cheese to expand his list, how many spellbooks are needed to hold every spell that a Wizard could prepare?

I believe another one of my group said there are 64 cantrips last session (he just made a wizard with ALL of them in his spellbook), so it's only a single one for cantrips.

With the help of dndtools, I have compiled this table of Wizard spells by level. The dndtools database is not complete; in fact, its 4,995 spells are about half of the figure PlzBreakMyCampaign quoted.

Spell Level	Number of Spells	Pages
0	46	46
1	295	295
2	428	856
3	393	1,179
4	352	1,408
5	310	1,550
6	230	1,380
7	164	1,148
8	142	1,136
9	139	1,251
Total	2,499	10,249

So in a group using only the sources in the dndtools database, a 1st-level Wizard's spellbook is half-full of cantrips. To hold every Wizard spell, he would need 103 spellbooks. Some more spellbook fun facts (again, based on this incomplete but easy-to-search database):

• A 20th-level Wizard that started the game with 18 Intelligence gets 45 non-cantrip spells for free: 9 at 1st level, 4 each at levels 2 through 8, and 8 at 9th level.
• Including the cantrips, these free spells take 267 pages (three spellbooks). Though these spells can be written into a spellbook for free, it appears that the wizard must provide his own second and third "free" spellbooks.
• "Core" (for our purposes, the SRD) has 19 cantrips, so a core-only Wizard 20 only has 240 pages of spells.
• If you want "catch 'em all" and put every Wizard spell into your spellbooks, the 102 spellbooks you need to buy (the first one's free) cost 1,530 gp. Writing the 2,408 non-free spells into the spellbooks costs 998,200 gp.

That was a fun little project, but hardly relevant to the rest of the this thread. Now the conversation can get back to... arguing about grease?

[X-Codes]

That was a fun little project, but hardly relevant to the rest of the this thread. Now the conversation can get back to... arguing about grease?

No, that argument was dumb the first time around.