Author Topic: "Skip to the END": Handling players bypassing the setup for the main villain  (Read 33412 times)

Offline Kajhera

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...Option: Have your BBEG increase in power and options with time (kinda how the party does). If they catch him early and unexpectedly in his plans, he will logically be weaker, more vulnerable and less prepared than later on. (Albeit with more weak minions available, probably!) As you leave him free to do his thing, ticking plot bombs go off and make the situation you find yourself in somewhat hairier.

Other Option: Throw a variant of mirror of opposition in the way that operates in a fashion no one can make sense of. They'll get the hint. Err - Warn them what they are getting into, IC, in a more or less cryptic fashion. Give them a chance to prepare for this crazy plan of theirs.

Third Option: Defeat them, congratulate them on their creative thinking and offer them a geas job.

Offline Mooncrow

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There are circumstances where all of that is true - the examples that you've been given in this thread aren't.  Having pre-defined encounters that don't change no matter what actions the players take elsewhere is just video game DMing.  (and it will inevitably lead to the problem that you are having)

edit: also, what sirpercival said.  Well put. 
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:08:07 AM by Mooncrow »

Offline InnaBinder

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There are circumstances where all of that is true - the examples that you've been given in this thread aren't.  Having pre-defined encounters that don't change no matter what actions the players take elsewhere is just video game DMing.  (and it will inevitably lead to the problem that you are having)

edit: also, what sirpercival said.  Well put.
I perceive a world where it's impossible for the PCs to run across encounters significantly outside their CR (high OR low) as video-game DMing, just as much as having predefined encounters is video game DMing (I'd also love to meet a DM who is so adept at adapting on the fly to PC actions that they don't notice the adapting when it's done, but I digress).  I perceive a world where player choice leads to TPKs as being bad DMing, and have been called a Bad DM in these parts for having that particular circumstance arise.

Please note that the example of the guards, the king, and the throne room was veekie's, not mine.  I have not posited a specific example, and would be genuinely interested in examples of story arcs with encounters that aren't predefined such that it's impossible to "skip to the end."

...Option: Have your BBEG increase in power and options with time (kinda how the party does). If they catch him early and unexpectedly in his plans, he will logically be weaker, more vulnerable and less prepared than later on. (Albeit with more weak minions available, probably!) As you leave him free to do his thing, ticking plot bombs go off and make the situation you find yourself in somewhat hairier.

Other Option: Throw a variant of mirror of opposition in the way that operates in a fashion no one can make sense of. They'll get the hint. Err - Warn them what they are getting into, IC, in a more or less cryptic fashion. Give them a chance to prepare for this crazy plan of theirs.

Third Option: Defeat them, congratulate them on their creative thinking and offer them a geas job.
Personally, I generally try to use the first option, but because the BBEG is, after all, the BBEG, he starts out a couple of levels/CR ratings above the PCs to begin with.  I don't find stories where the BBEG is at the same relative level as the party to be particularly engaging.  Catching him unawares still means facing something on the fringe of being a hard encounter from the start, and skipping any preliminary adventures means the PCs will often be under-equipped to deal with such a threat.  This, in turn, increases the difficulty.
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Offline sirpercival

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You think it's bad DMing if player choice leads to TPK? That's only true for certain types of player choice.  If the players manage to bypass a bunch of stuff that would help them in the coming BBEG battle, then before they enter into said battle, give them enough IC information to be able to make the (correct) observation that they're outclassed.  If they continue blithely on, that's simply a bad choice and they need to suffer the consequences.

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Offline InnaBinder

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You think it's bad DMing if player choice leads to TPK? That's only true for certain types of player choice.  If the players manage to bypass a bunch of stuff that would help them in the coming BBEG battle, then before they enter into said battle, give them enough IC information to be able to make the (correct) observation that they're outclassed.  If they continue blithely on, that's simply a bad choice and they need to suffer the consequences.

Remember the old adage: a living PC is a paranoid PC.
As I said, it's not just my opinion.  I've been told this very thing on Josh & Meg's very boards. 

If they bypass a bunch of stuff to get to the coming BBEG battle, how, precisely, does one give them IC information that they're outclassed without a vox dei moment?  After all, they've bypassed the folks most likely to give that IC information.
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Offline Hallack

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In a way similar to what Kajhera mentioned above I would scale it all depending upon the situation.

If the only point to the combat encounters that the party is bypassing is to get XP/Loot with not real story consequence (Consequence is important as others have noted) then I would not punish rational avoidance or other non-combat handling of those challenges.

For a simplified example...
  • There is BBEG with lots of minions doing Super Evil Stuff (TM). 
  • The players only real goal is to stop the Super Evil Stuff by the BBEG and the minions in and of themselves are not as big a long term problem (ie without BBEG they will self destruct, disperse, or otherwise become a non-issue).
  • The adventure is planned expected the players to fight many groups of minions in making their way to the BBEG raising their Level and improving their equipment in the process.

In such a case I would not punish the party for finding creative means to avoid unnecessary fights.  I wouldn't want to push players into fights simply for XP/Loot if those fights did not rationally contribute to their quest beyond mechanical power advancement. 

The difference in expected power at time of BBEG fight can be handled several ways. 
  • Reward the characters rational actions and creativity with XP awards.
  • Scale the BBEG differently than anticipated.
  • Create challenges for which it is not rational for the characters avoid or is unable to avoid in pursuit of their BBEG slaying goal.

Ideally I would say use one or a combination of the means above based upon the particular situation and needs of the adventure (and group play style). 

This helps prevent forcing characters into fights for XP/LOOT that from a RP/Story perspective does not make sense for them while allowing the story to advance in a manner enjoyable for the players.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:43:36 AM by Hallack »

Offline Mooncrow

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I perceive a world where it's impossible for the PCs to run across encounters significantly outside their CR (high OR low) as video-game DMing, just as much as having predefined encounters is video game DMing (I'd also love to meet a DM who is so adept at adapting on the fly to PC actions that they don't notice the adapting when it's done, but I digress).  I perceive a world where player choice leads to TPKs as being bad DMing, and have been called a Bad DM in these parts for having that particular circumstance arise.

Please note that the example of the guards, the king, and the throne room was veekie's, not mine.  I have not posited a specific example, and would be genuinely interested in examples of story arcs with encounters that aren't predefined such that it's impossible to "skip to the end."


Sure, and when they do run into those encounters, it should be through the choices they made.  Specific choices, that is, not "we turned right at the fork and there was a CR+8 encounter down that hallway".  And you wouldn't have to look very far; I can't speak for my own players, but my DM operates very much the same way I do, and I would be hard pressed to figure out what was pre-planned and what was changed.  It's alot easier, of course, when you come up with an overall narrative arc to begin with, and build the story as an organic whole.  Then you can see the consequences when the players start to make choices.  I highly recommend picking up one of the FATE system books if you want a good methodology of how to build encounter maps that can be adjusted on the fly.

As for your second point, that's easiest to do when the plotline is all about, or at least partially about, figuring out who the BBEG is - divination blocking isn't that hard to get, and for a genuine baddie, should really be a way of life.  One method is to leave it as a question even in your own mind, (though have the stats drawn up ahead of time) and then the follow where the players go in their search.  And when they "figure it out" - they feel clever, and you look like a genius, and everyone goes home happy. 

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Offline sirpercival

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You think it's bad DMing if player choice leads to TPK? That's only true for certain types of player choice.  If the players manage to bypass a bunch of stuff that would help them in the coming BBEG battle, then before they enter into said battle, give them enough IC information to be able to make the (correct) observation that they're outclassed.  If they continue blithely on, that's simply a bad choice and they need to suffer the consequences.

Remember the old adage: a living PC is a paranoid PC.
As I said, it's not just my opinion.  I've been told this very thing on Josh & Meg's very boards. 

If they bypass a bunch of stuff to get to the coming BBEG battle, how, precisely, does one give them IC information that they're outclassed without a vox dei moment?  After all, they've bypassed the folks most likely to give that IC information.

That's not the kind of thing that I can answer in detail without specific examples -- every situation will be different.  But it's absolutely plausible that they would come upon the BBEG while said BBEG is still getting prepared... and so, for example, they make Listen & Spot checks to observe the BBEG discussing something with a minion that reveals some aspect of the BBEG's abilities that they're not prepared to handle, or they make a Knowledge check and identify the BBEG as something way over their heads, etc.
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Offline Basket Burner

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When player actions force Nintendo Hard Mode, I've been given to understand - on these boards and their predecessor - that it's Bad DMing.  When player actions force OOC discussions of the upcoming TPK (or a TPK without discussion), I've been given to understand that it's Bad DMing.  When player actions force deus ex machina fixes, I've been given to understand it's Bad DMing.  When player actions are ignored to create railroading or some variation of cakewalk final battles (because the encounter got adjusted on the fly to be appropriate and suddenly isn't as epic as advertised), I've been given to understand it's Bad DMing.

In what way does enemy leader under attack calls for reinforcements end up being unfair? What should they do then? Stand there and allow themselves to be killed? Wait in their rooms for the door to open and the PCs to come in?

There are a few people here that will launch into a Whirling Frenzy rage in the real world if encounters are remotely difficult or played remotely intelligently but that doesn't mean that they're right or you should listen to and take anything they say at all seriously.

It isn't railroading unless the party goes to skip everything but the final boss only to find everything and the final boss waiting for them. Not final boss with the others coming running from whereever they are and would be anyways but right there waiting in the final room.

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What, so the party bypasses the halls of the three story building to get to the throne room so suddenly the guards outside do, too?  I'd have trouble with that level of suspension of disbelief, personally.

Your evil leader hired ambulatory guards didn't he? Run, Forest, run...

Offline ImperatorK

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What, so the party bypasses the halls of the three story building to get to the throne room so suddenly the guards outside do, too?  I'd have trouble with that level of suspension of disbelief, personally.
Were there no guards on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd story of the building? And no guards right outside (or inside) the throne room? That's some overconfident (or stupid) king right there.
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Offline InnaBinder

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I perceive a world where it's impossible for the PCs to run across encounters significantly outside their CR (high OR low) as video-game DMing, just as much as having predefined encounters is video game DMing (I'd also love to meet a DM who is so adept at adapting on the fly to PC actions that they don't notice the adapting when it's done, but I digress).  I perceive a world where player choice leads to TPKs as being bad DMing, and have been called a Bad DM in these parts for having that particular circumstance arise.

Please note that the example of the guards, the king, and the throne room was veekie's, not mine.  I have not posited a specific example, and would be genuinely interested in examples of story arcs with encounters that aren't predefined such that it's impossible to "skip to the end."




Sure, and when they do run into those encounters, it should be through the choices they made.  Specific choices, that is, not "we turned right at the fork and there was a CR+8 encounter down that hallway".  And you wouldn't have to look very far; I can't speak for my own players, but my DM operates very much the same way I do, and I would be hard pressed to figure out what was pre-planned and what was changed.  It's alot easier, of course, when you come up with an overall narrative arc to begin with, and build the story as an organic whole.  Then you can see the consequences when the players start to make choices.  I highly recommend picking up one of the FATE system books if you want a good methodology of how to build encounter maps that can be adjusted on the fly.

As for your second point, that's easiest to do when the plotline is all about, or at least partially about, figuring out who the BBEG is - divination blocking isn't that hard to get, and for a genuine baddie, should really be a way of life.  One method is to leave it as a question even in your own mind, (though have the stats drawn up ahead of time) and then the follow where the players go in their search.  And when they "figure it out" - they feel clever, and you look like a genius, and everyone goes home happy.
I regularly see posts and hear comments (almost universally negative) from folks about being able to tell when a DM is adjusting stuff on the fly, even in a PbP medium, so I'll chalk that up to different experiences for the two of us.

Divination blocking feels extremely passive-aggressive to me; it's basically the DM negating player choices without telling them beforehand that he'd prefer a game without Scry-and-Die tactics, which is what Divination blocking creates.  It may be a solution to a particular problem, but it opens up an entirely new set of problems in the game's dynamic.  That said, I've run - and seen run - several games where the plotline is about figuring out who the BBEG is; it has yet to preclude the PCs circumventing key elements and discovering the answer by dumb luck, and thus dealing with the BBEG when they're not as prepared as they probably should be.

Quote from: sirpercival
That's not the kind of thing that I can answer in detail without specific examples -- every situation will be different.  But it's absolutely plausible that they would come upon the BBEG while said BBEG is still getting prepared... and so, for example, they make Listen & Spot checks to observe the BBEG discussing something with a minion that reveals some aspect of the BBEG's abilities that they're not prepared to handle, or they make a Knowledge check and identify the BBEG as something way over their heads, etc.
If they are making Listen & Spot checks to hear what the BBEG is discussing that leads them to realize they're in over their heads, what they're also hearing is a vox dei hint that they're in over their heads.  The difference is negligible, and depends entirely upon player buy-in, from my experience.  I've said before that I've been at more than one table where hearing/seeing such things in character led to OOC quips from players about having gone off the rails.  As for the Knowledge checks, those would usually rely on either the player making an assumption that their actions haven't (necessarily) indicated is valid or invalid, or on the DM dropping some variety of hint - heavy-handed or otherwise.

Quote
What, so the party bypasses the halls of the three story building to get to the throne room so suddenly the guards outside do, too?  I'd have trouble with that level of suspension of disbelief, personally.
Were there no guards on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd story of the building? And no guards right outside (or inside) the throne room? That's some overconfident (or stupid) king right there.
There were guards on all three stories of the building.  They all figured into the overall challenge that the castle would present to the party, and into the resources available to the party when they faced the king.  The party bypassed a majority of those guards, and thus a majority of those resources.  How, precisely, would you propose that all those guards and resources get to the king's throne room (sleeping quarters/where ever the party encounters him) in the 2 - 4 rounds that the boards generally presume typify an appropriate battle length for 3.X D&D?  How, precisely, would you propose having the PCs deal with all of them arriving in a stream, or a pile, without the encounter being a TPK or feeling artificially defused?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 12:57:15 PM by InnaBinder »
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Offline sirpercival

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I'm not sure what to say about a player who has a problem with a DM "adjusting things on the fly" to react to the PC's actions.  Are the NPCs and monsters just supposed to stand around waiting for the PCs to show up, or not?  And then if the PCs don't show up, they just head on home?  That seems very strange to me.

As a DM it's patently impossible to plan for everything a party could do (except in the case of a bunch of bad players where the party will only really do one or two things).  You have to have wiggle room, and designing said wiggle room into a game is what makes the game playable at all. 

It sounds like the players who are complaining want a sandbox game instead of an overarching storyline, which is fine if that's the game they all agreed on playing -- if not, then what do they expect?
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Offline ImperatorK

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I regularly see posts and hear comments (almost universally negative) from folks about being able to tell when a DM is adjusting stuff on the fly, even in a PbP medium, so I'll chalk that up to different experiences for the two of us.
Why do you care so much what anonymous people on the internet have to say about the way you run your game? The whole world can tell me I'm doing something wrong, but if I want to do it and my players like it (or at least don't complain) then I'll do it and the world can shove it.

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How, precisely, would you propose that all those guards and resources get to the king's throne room (sleeping quarters/where ever the party encounters him) in the 2 - 4 rounds that the boards generally presume typify an appropriate battle length for 3.X D&D?
How long a fight lasts depends on how YOU run your game, not what the boards say. That's firstly.
Secondly, a king will most probably have some guards by his side and they should stand in the way of the PCs. If they're not a real obstacle or there are no guards in the throne room, then the king should simply go into defense until help arrives, or escape.

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How, precisely, would you propose having the PCs deal with all of them arriving in a stream, or a pile, without the encounter being a TPK or feeling artificially defused?
Well, that's their problem, not my. All I would do is to give them some way of escaping, but I'm not going to pull punches. They got there without getting into trouble, they should be able to get out of there also. I mean, what were they expecting? That after killing the king all the guards will vanish? They have to get out just like they got in, but now they are under pressure.
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Offline Mooncrow

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I don't know what you're asking for then - you don't want to make stuff up on the fly or adjust the encounters according to what the PCs do.  You don't want to use any of the tools that would stop a party from skipping a pre-set storyline.

I'm out of advice, aside from a second suggestion of reading a FATE system book.  And even then, if you refuse to make the world a dynamic place for the PCs, you're going to continue to have this problem. 

(as an aside, I guess I remember very different discussions on the old boards when you asked about the "plot monster" problem - in fact, I gave you the exact same advice then)

Offline CaptRory

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The game has to be dynamic and react to what the PCs Do and, in some cases, Do Not Do.


If the players skip right to the final boss they may be hoping to catch him unawares or before his plans have been fully realized so it is not unreasonable to thin that he would have some reasources and things that he wouldn't have at the end of the campaign but wouldn't have others.

If the players sneak into the Citadel of Doomy Doom Doom Doom and bypass all the guards and traps and start fighting the king guy, it's not unreasonable for the guards to start investigating the battle. Guards are Resources that the king has at his disposal. They will be used. Part of the plan for eliminating the King is going to be dealing with the resources he has whether it is Magic, Combat Prowess, Artifacts, Guards, etc.



My Wed night game group made some mistakes and ended up having to go to The Magic Realm (the campaigns equivalent of sending a level 2 party to The Underdark). We got some help to turn it from a suicidal trip to an exceedingly dangerous one. The number of times my character almost died in a three day period was ridiculous. But that's the way the game went and the players had to roll with the punches. Because in a good game there are consequences to your actions. We actually did a REALLLLY good job in the dungeon there and it was a lot easier than it should have been thanks to good decisions, puzzle solving, and lucky rolls.

If the game world doesn't adapt to the group's choices, if the players don't have an impact, if the game isn't run in a reasonably realistic way, you might as well buy everyone a copy of Baldur's Gate.

Offline InnaBinder

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Quote from: ImperatorK
Why do you care so much what anonymous people on the internet have to say about the way you run your game? The whole world can tell me I'm doing something wrong, but if I want to do it and my players like it (or at least don't complain) then I'll do it and the world can shove it.
I don't recall specifying that I'm only talking about what happens in my game, or the way I run it.  I'm talking about finding a legitimate solution to an issue that I see crop up in my game and others; I've mentioned seeing it in other games more than once in this thread.  As to the "anonymous people on the internet" issue, well, why do you care so much about what anonymous people on the internet say that you feel compelled to respond to their posts?

(as an aside, I guess I remember very different discussions on the old boards when you asked about the "plot monster" problem - in fact, I gave you the exact same advice then)
Using that advice still gets commentary of railroading, or TPK-by-fiat, or coddling, depending on the perceived level of difficulty of encounters, from players I see and/or know.  Ditto the advice given on the old thread I made on whether the party was "doomed from the start."  Given that these approaches are still achieving the same - undesired - results, I'm looking for other options that produce desirable results.
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Offline Kajhera

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Okay, here's one: Create terror.

If you do this right, your players will always assume they're in over their heads, and, if they deliberately seek out a higher-CR encounter, will do so with extreme paranoia or the attitude of a martyr (both of which are helpful). Incidentally, a TPK where the party triumphs isn't the worst way to end an adventure, from a player perspective, though I admit I wouldn't want to set up that scenario as a DM. ... Player choice there.

The problem with terror is that it can get exhausting over long stretches.

Offline kitep

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Things I try to avoid in the situation include:

a) railroading
b) deus ex machina fixes
c) OOC discussions on the story or game world
d) Nintendo Hard Mode
e) cakewalk final battles. 

I'd go with #3 - just tell them they're free to attack the BBEG, but it'll most likely result in a TPK.  If they do so anyway, then so be it.

As for what's bad DMing and what's not, that really varies from group to group.  The important thing is what is fun for your group, and yes, that includes yourself.

Good luck!

Offline ImperatorK

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I don't recall specifying that I'm only talking about what happens in my game, or the way I run it.  I'm talking about finding a legitimate solution to an issue that I see crop up in my game and others; I've mentioned seeing it in other games more than once in this thread.
You've shot down reasonable suggestions because you don't like them and people are telling you that they're bad DMing. There's nothing more that can be done here.

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As to the "anonymous people on the internet" issue, well, why do you care so much about what anonymous people on the internet say that you feel compelled to respond to their posts?
That'll teach me to offer help when someone is asking for it. :rolleyes

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I'd go with #3 - just tell them they're free to attack the BBEG, but it'll most likely result in a TPK.  If they do so anyway, then so be it.

As for what's bad DMing and what's not, that really varies from group to group.  The important thing is what is fun for your group, and yes, that includes yourself.
+1.
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