Author Topic: Alternative Progression & Casting  (Read 3552 times)

Offline faeryn

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Alternative Progression & Casting
« on: November 30, 2015, 04:21:04 PM »
I've been playing around with some ideas in my head for some time now... and I wanted to get some feedback on them...

This will mostly affect spellcasters, though some of my ideas are for mundanes as well...

Cantrips: All 0-level spells become at-will Cantrips. Casting classes that normally do not gain 0-level spells may pick 5 cantrips from any class list of the same casting type. Therefore a paladin may only choose cantrips available to Divine casters and a Spellthief may only choose cantrips available to an Arcane caster.

Caster Levels: Caster levels of the same casting types stack, Caster levels of differing types stack at 1/2 CL (Rounded down). Every 3 levels of a non-caster class adds 1 to any CLs you have, this is always added AFTER any stacking mechanics. Therefore a Wizard 4/Sorcerer 2 would have an Arcane CL of 6 whereas a Wizard 4/Cleric 2 would have an Arcane CL of 5 and a Divine CL of 4, likewise a Wizard 3/Fighter 3 would have an Arcane CL of 4. A Wizard 3/Fighter 3/Cleric 1 would have an Arcane CL of 4 {3 + (1/2x1) + (1/3x3) = 4} and a Divine CL of 3 {1 + (1/2x3) + (1/3x3) = 3}.

Spell Save DC: All spell saves will have a DC of 10+1/2HD+Key Attribute+Spell Level, this is to help keep spell save DCs competitive with save bonuses.

Spell Slots & Spell Points: All spontaneous spell casters use Spell Points to cast spells instead of spell slots. Prepared spell casters use both spell points and spell slots. A Prepared spell caster gains their spell slots from class levels and their spell points from their ability score. Prepared spell casters may cast spontaneously with their spell points but must prepare their spell slots to make use of them.
Note - Under this system Clerics, Druids, & Paladins are considered spontaneous spell casters.

Meta Magic: Spontaneous spell casters may use meta magic without increasing the casting time of the spell. Prepared spell casters MUST prepare their meta magic spells in spell slots, but may spontaneously cast any prepared meta magic spell with spell points. A prepared spell caster may not spontaneously apply meta magic unless granted the ability by a feat or prestige class.

Familiars: Classes that grant Familiars now get the Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar feats instead. Classes with special familiars modify the Obtain Familiar feat to grant their special familiar instead, but otherwise reference the feat for progression.

Specialist Wizards: Specialist Wizards may add 1/2 their max spell level (rounded up [+1 for 1st lv, +5 for 9th lv]) to the DC of any spell of their specialist school regardless of spell level. You may also benefit from the wizard variants outlined in Unearthed Arcana without giving up wizard class features.

Generalist Wizards: Gain the Elvin Generalist substitution levels regardless of race. Additionally feat progression of a Generalist Wizard is changed to match that of a Martial Wizard.

Domains Spells & Specialist Spell Slots: No change, these bonus slots still function exactly as the book outlines them.

Domain Wizards: Domain Wizards sacrifice the Generalist Wizard benefits for their Domain.

Mundane Class Features: Any basic class feature that improves with levels, and is obtained within the first 3 levels of the class, such as a Rogues Sneak Attack or a Barbarians Rage Continues to improve as if you had gained 1/3 of all other class levels (that do not grant progression of the same ability). So a Rogue 6/Barbarian 3 would have a Sneak Attack of 4d6, could Rage 2/day, and Trapsense +3. However a Rogue 6/Spellthief 3 would still only have a Sneak Attack of 4d6, you would not add 1/2 Spellthief to Rogue for Sneak Attack nor would you add 1/2 Rogue to Spelltheif for Sneak Attack, you would however add 1/2 Rogue to Spelltheif to progress the Spellthief's steal spell & Spellgrace abilties and 1/2 Spellthief to Rogue for the Rogue's Trapsense ability. A 10th Level Rogue cannot improve their Special Abilities class feature in this manner as the ability was not acquired within the first 3 levels of the Rogue class.
Note - Casting abilities are NOT increased in this manner and may only be improved by taking levels of an appropriate casting class.

Saves: -1 to all Good Saves from multi-classing. Your starting class will always progress as normal, but any additional classes will grant good saves at 1 less. Wizard 4/Rogue 2 will have saves of Fort +1/Ref +3/Will +4. What this boils down to is at any character level besides 1st you may not gain more than +1 to any save from class levels.

Multi-class Casting (Abilities): Unless stated otherwise, use the appropriate casting class when calculating variables for any and all spells. A Wizard 4/Sorcerer 2 would not add their Charisma to the spell save of any spell cast as a wizard.

Multi-class Casting (Spells Known): Your spell lists are NOT shared across classes, however, you may use spell slots to prepare any spells known so long as they are of the same casting type. A Wizard cannot prepare Divine spells and an Archivist cannot prepare Arcane spells.

Multi-class Casting (Progression): Add 1/4 of all other casting classes to each casting class to determine the level of spells available in that class. A Wizard 4/Sorcerer 4 would have access to 3rd level Wizard spells and 2nd level Sorcerer spells, a Wizard 4/Cleric 4 would have access to 3rd level Wizard & Cleric spells.
Note - Spells must still be learned as normal.

Other Casters (Psionics, Incarnum, Binding, etc...): Apply the same changes outlined in the Caster Level, Spell Save DC, & Multi-class Casting sections as appropriate.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 02:30:32 PM by faeryn »

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2015, 06:54:20 AM »
I would like to comment on your writing. Yet, before that I would like you to elaborate on your Goal.
i.e. what is the problem in the mechanics?

Offline Dr_emperor

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2015, 09:46:00 AM »

Spell Save DC: All spell saves will have a DC of 10+1/2HD+Key Attribute+Spell Level, this is to help keep spell save DCs competitive with save bonuses.


Wait so the spell DC's are too low, this means the DC for a first level spell from a 20th level caster capable of casting 9th level spells is 25, and the DC for a ninth level spell is 33.  Balor averages +20, Solar +19, Tarrasque +38, 29, 20.  Pitfiend averages 20.  Silver wyrm +29.

So you probably hit your mark in a no optimization wizard; Most caster 20's I've seen have higher intelligence than 19.  Most optimized I've seen add another 12-16 to intelligence or the equivalent, as far as DC is concerned.  The Solar and Silver wyrm have spellccasting so they don't auto die to a save or die but the fiends sure do.

Also this is just for characters or do monsters with there randomish hit die also get this benefit?

Offline faeryn

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2015, 02:53:14 PM »
I would like to comment on your writing. Yet, before that I would like you to elaborate on your Goal.
i.e. what is the problem in the mechanics?

The most immediate problem and goal is in regards to spells with saves. Its bugged me to no end that spell save DCs progressed exponentially slower than Will/Reflex/Fort saves. My goal here was to fix this issue. Hense my changes to both Spell Save DCs and Saving throw progression. By only allowing the initial +2 as a 1st level character bonus and dropping all multiclassing down to +1 that keeps saves more in line and doesn't reward player A with better saves for multiclassing while punishing player B for going single class. And by adding 1/2 HD to spell saves it helps bring save DCs up so that a high level spellcaster isn't shoehorned into no-save spells or excessive optimization. Certain build types simply arn't viable late game due to the mechanics of saves in their official form.

Next is the issue of multi-classing spellcasting. I don't aim to allow it at no cost, but I do aim to reduce the penalty. Multiclassing with another spellcasting class would logically still improve your casting ability in other casting classes. Similarly, learning a mundane class doesn't mean you would stop practicing magic. Since neither of these is direct advancement of the class you progress at a different rate. Arcane casters are still advancing arcane casting when they dip into a different arcane class so they would still progress full caster level. However an arcane caster who levels a divine casing class would still be training their ability to cast magic, but differences between the two types would mean a slowed progression. A caster who leveled a mundane class would still learn from their practice but since the new class is not casting they learn at an even slower rate.

The same sort of logic would apply to mundane class progression as well, however restrictions are nessisary... For this reason I restricted the advancement to abilities learned within the first 3 levels of a class that improve with class levels. The early class abilities are generally the most basic and fundamental to the class, so continued progression of them fits, learning new class abilities however should always require levels in that class.

Making cantrips into at-will abilities gives spellcasters something to fallback on allowing them to use their spells more sparingly. The spell-points system (in my opinion at least) gives casters greater versatility in thier casting. Making this the default mechanic for spontaneous casters and giving prepaired casters a limited amount of spontaneous casting through spell-points improves versatility. Prepaired casters arn't as versatile though since they still have spell-slots from class levels, but they gain the benefits of knowing more spells.

Specialist Wizards needed something to make specializing more worthwhile, so giving them the UA specialist AFC benefits be default helps with that. With Metamagic nolonger increasing casting times for spontaneous casters, generalist wizards needed a boost to make them a little more appealing as well. I wanted to make it so that all casters were equally appealing.

Overall goal was to make a system thats just more enjoyable and less punishing.



Spell Save DC: All spell saves will have a DC of 10+1/2HD+Key Attribute+Spell Level, this is to help keep spell save DCs competitive with save bonuses.


Wait so the spell DC's are too low, this means the DC for a first level spell from a 20th level caster capable of casting 9th level spells is 25, and the DC for a ninth level spell is 33.  Balor averages +20, Solar +19, Tarrasque +38, 29, 20.  Pitfiend averages 20.  Silver wyrm +29.

So you probably hit your mark in a no optimization wizard; Most caster 20's I've seen have higher intelligence than 19.  Most optimized I've seen add another 12-16 to intelligence or the equivalent, as far as DC is concerned.  The Solar and Silver wyrm have spellccasting so they don't auto die to a save or die but the fiends sure do.

Also this is just for characters or do monsters with there randomish hit die also get this benefit?

Spell Save DCs from 10+Spell Level+Key Ability results in saves that are frequently 15-30 points below the average saving throw bonus from classes. This creates a problem for the DM when trying to affect players with spells and for players when trying to affect an NPC with a spell. Many guides even address this issue by encouraging readers to only pickup no-save spells. I want to stop this pracice and allow for all spells to remain viable at all levels.

If you've got a DC 25 on a 1st level spell with an average saveing throw bonus of +20 then a that gives your spell ~25% chance to succeed, and with a upper range of +38, even the toughest of creatures can fail against your save. Reducing the Good save progression of classes brings PCs and DM NPCs down to the same save range as most upper level monsters.

Monsters that have spellcasting use the new calculation for their DCs. Monster abilities already use a calculation with their HD and Level included. As for their saving throws, thats the reson I have Good Saves only grant the initial +2 at 1st character level only. Prevents multi-class abuse to boost saving throws into the +40~60 range by level 20.

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 11:22:23 AM »
The most immediate problem and goal is in regards to spells with saves. Its bugged me to no end that spell save DCs progressed exponentially slower than Will/Reflex/Fort saves.
In order to solve this, I'm afraid you'll have to break down some arithmatic dance moves and show how both the attack(spellcast) function and defense(save) function work. Keeping in mind that in order for the game to work, and assuming we're still talking about d20 system, then the attack function must be 10 points higher then the defense function disregarding levels and taking into account intervals of ability modifiers, equipment and buffs.

Both the old way and your new suggestion doesn't show that. Unless I'm overlooking something.


Next is the issue of multi-classing spellcasting. I don't aim to allow it at no cost, but I do aim to reduce the penalty. Multiclassing with another spellcasting class would logically still improve your casting ability in other casting classes. Similarly, learning a mundane class doesn't mean you would stop practicing magic. Since neither of these is direct advancement of the class you progress at a different rate. Arcane casters are still advancing arcane casting when they dip into a different arcane class so they would still progress full caster level. However an arcane caster who levels a divine casing class would still be training their ability to cast magic, but differences between the two types would mean a slowed progression. A caster who leveled a mundane class would still learn from their practice but since the new class is not casting they learn at an even slower rate.

The same sort of logic would apply to mundane class progression as well, however restrictions are nessisary... For this reason I restricted the advancement to abilities learned within the first 3 levels of a class that improve with class levels. The early class abilities are generally the most basic and fundamental to the class, so continued progression of them fits, learning new class abilities however should always require levels in that class.

I don't agree with you there. A few examples:
The spontaneous arcane caster which power from his vestige would not further advance his arcane powers if he would suddenly level a wizard in addition. His power source (thematically speaking) would not be the same one and therefore a different progression would need to be tracked.
Playing a sneakattack rogue and then adding on top a figher-sneak-attack-varient would mean that checks would need to stop him from advancing both sources of sneak attack. Yet, a very strong case can be presented for why he should receive the rogue special moves even if he didn't get to higher levels with his thief.


Making cantrips into at-will abilities gives spellcasters something...Overall goal was to make a system thats just more enjoyable and less punishing.
I strongly encourage you pursue that. Just that there are already a few items on the subject - including one that you and I had already shared.


=Now for the original post=

I hate cantrips/will. Much prefer to hand out free Reserve Feats.

I don't understand how the metamagic is going to work - can you further clarify?

The familiar change seems alright. Honestly, if someone gains a familiar I see no reason to not work with him so he can have the pet he desires.

The other parts have already been addressed above.

Offline faeryn

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 12:53:56 AM »
The most immediate problem and goal is in regards to spells with saves. Its bugged me to no end that spell save DCs progressed exponentially slower than Will/Reflex/Fort saves.
In order to solve this, I'm afraid you'll have to break down some arithmatic dance moves and show how both the attack(spellcast) function and defense(save) function work. Keeping in mind that in order for the game to work, and assuming we're still talking about d20 system, then the attack function must be 10 points higher then the defense function disregarding levels and taking into account intervals of ability modifiers, equipment and buffs.

Both the old way and your new suggestion doesn't show that. Unless I'm overlooking something.

Ok, lets look at the math then.

20th Level caster with 18 base in their casting attribute, all 5 attribute increases from leveling in that stat, and a +6 item boosting it, totalling 29 for a +9 mod. With WotC's calculation that gives them a Spell Save DC range of 19~28, with my calculation it's a range of  29~38.

Using the same stat set up for any save in a single class build. With poor saves you're at +15 and with good saves your at +21 before adding any any other save bonuses. You can easily get a +5 from items and another +5~10 from spells and feats. So a single class character can easily have +15~30 Poor and +21~36 Good saves. With WotC's system you can pretty much add +1 to that for every multi-class/prC you pickup to Good saves.

Difference in Saves vs DC (- denotes failure if rolled below, + denotes Save exceeds DC before roll) Before additional save bonuses
WotC (Poor)/(Good) | Mine (Poor/Good)
0-Lv -4/+2 | -14/-8
1-Lv -5/+1 | -15/-9
2-Lv -6/0 | -16/-10
3-Lv -7/-1 | -17/-11
4-Lv -8/-2 | -18/-12
5-Lv -9/-3 | -19/-13
6-Lv -10/-4 | -20/-14
7-Lv -11/-5 | -21/-15
8-Lv -12/-6 | -22/-16
9-Lv -13/-7 | -23/-17

Keeping in mind that you can easily add another +5~15 to saves and that WotC rewards multiclassing with higher base saves that roll of 1~12/1~6 to fail a 9th Lv quickly becomes impossible to fail even on a poor save, with my system even with that extra +15 you still can fail on a roll of 1~7/1~2. Bonuses after that +15 to saves are harder to come by and total about the same as the few bonuses available to increase spell save DCs.

Next is the issue of multi-classing spellcasting. I don't aim to allow it at no cost, but I do aim to reduce the penalty. Multiclassing with another spellcasting class would logically still improve your casting ability in other casting classes. Similarly, learning a mundane class doesn't mean you would stop practicing magic. Since neither of these is direct advancement of the class you progress at a different rate. Arcane casters are still advancing arcane casting when they dip into a different arcane class so they would still progress full caster level. However an arcane caster who levels a divine casing class would still be training their ability to cast magic, but differences between the two types would mean a slowed progression. A caster who leveled a mundane class would still learn from their practice but since the new class is not casting they learn at an even slower rate.

The same sort of logic would apply to mundane class progression as well, however restrictions are nessisary... For this reason I restricted the advancement to abilities learned within the first 3 levels of a class that improve with class levels. The early class abilities are generally the most basic and fundamental to the class, so continued progression of them fits, learning new class abilities however should always require levels in that class.

I don't agree with you there. A few examples:
The spontaneous arcane caster which power from his vestige would not further advance his arcane powers if he would suddenly level a wizard in addition. His power source (thematically speaking) would not be the same one and therefore a different progression would need to be tracked.
Playing a sneakattack rogue and then adding on top a figher-sneak-attack-varient would mean that checks would need to stop him from advancing both sources of sneak attack. Yet, a very strong case can be presented for why he should receive the rogue special moves even if he didn't get to higher levels with his thief.
I disagree with the spontaneous Arcane Caster vs Wizard issues... Your potential to cast magic would still improve, though I suppose I could see an argument for stacking 1/2 other Arcane & 1/3 Divine caster levels to your Arcane Caster to better address the differences in knowledge... Your knowledge of higher level spells and such is already slowed from multiclassing, my system on them just gives you a little nudge helping you to keep up with single class casters while still falling behind a little for multi-classing.

Well the checks are in place to prevent a Rogue/SA Fighter from advancing both sources. As my rules state advancing in a class that grants the feature does NOT grant you advancement of the previous class feature... though I guess I do see a potential flaw in that a Rogue 1/SA Fighter 1/Non-SA Class X would (with my current wording, which I need to fix) try to add 1/3 of their other class levels to both Rogue & SA Fighter... which should not be permitted... so I'm gonna have to figure out a better way to word that definately... I suppose I can see the arguement behind rogue special moves and possibly a few other unique rare exceptions like them...

Making cantrips into at-will abilities gives spellcasters something...Overall goal was to make a system thats just more enjoyable and less punishing.
I strongly encourage you pursue that. Just that there are already a few items on the subject - including one that you and I had already shared.

I should add a number of free Reserve Feats as a bonus to casters... particularly Prepared Casters to give them an added extra for their spell slots...

I don't understand how the metamagic is going to work - can you further clarify?

I'm currently on my tablet away from home atm, but I'll post back giving more clarification on how metamagic will work when I get back home.

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 11:01:24 AM »
I'm having trouble with your analysis.
It only shows level 20, it doesn't mention the functions themselves, and it does a poor job of showing the chances of each item.

It might be seen as if I'm bashing you - but I'm truly not. I just want to be very meticulous in the analysis itself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We'll start from the basics:

Attack function is "The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier" (copied and pasted from the d20 srd website).
So; 10 + Spevel + Castability

Spevel (Spell level) is tied to level by way of Spevel=(Class/2)+1

Defense function is class bonus added with corresponding ability modifier. The classes showcase to different bonus types named good and bad.
Good; 2+(Class/2)+Defability
Bad; Class/3+Defability

For sake of simplicity I'll say that the caster uses his highest spell.
As can be seen, we have the following variables: Class and Ability.
A very simplified graph would show the following:


Here's me trying to enter the functions throu a graph plotter:

It's very clear that even a "simplified" version is very hard to discern. But it is where we need to start. You can't simply start with 'at level 20 with +9 from items'. The early levels matter as well. I'd fathom to say that they matter even more.

 :psyduck
I wish I could find someone that already calculated those.

Offline faeryn

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 01:45:55 PM »
The reason I showed Lv20 is because at early levels you're only going to add 1-3 over what you get with WotC's calculation, and in the early levels of the game save DCs tend to hit the mark already, it's when you reach late game and have all the bonuses available to you that you'll find using WotC's calculations it's almost impossible to get any spells with saves to affect a target even against their lowest save... honestly sometimes I think they balanced saves, attack, AC, and spell DCs around gearless & featless characters... Because if you look at the game from the standpoint of having no gear or feats all the numbers strike a perfect balance... gear & feats throw that whole balance right out the window after about Lv6...



As for metamagic... I guess the simplest clarification would be making it easier to use... but I guess with my current rule Prepared Casters appear to get the short end of the stick on this one... That's not my intent with this though.

I wanted to make it so that metamagic is as viable for spontaneous casters as it currently is for prepared casters while keeping the current system of prepared metamagic in place. I've considered giving Prepared Casters an innate -1 spell level increase with prepared metamagic (-1 total, not individual, since -1 individual is too easily abused) but i'm not sure if that'd be enough to balance out prepared metamagic vs spontaneous metamagic.

But with the current system a spontaneous caster has to apply the metamagic to their spell with each casting, whereas a prepared spellcaster could prepare a number of spells with metamagic already in their spell slots and spontaneously cast those with their spell point.


I've also been playing around with a few different ideas for prepared casters and their simi-spontaneous casting under my system...
option 1) Full spontaneous casting of all known non-metamagic spells
option 2) Cast-time increase by 1 step to spontaneously cast a non-prepared spell (looking up from spell book)
option 3) Move action to look up a spell, normal cast time to spontaneously cast a non-prepared spell

Personally leaning towards option 3 since it allows for looking up a swift action spell to cast before performing a standard action for the round vs swift action spells becoming standard actions if not prepared... I'm not really to keen on going with option 1 though, since it feels like it steps on spontaneous caster's toes too much... I want to keep spontaneous casters as the most versatile while still maintaining a level of versatility to prepared casters albeit at a cost. SInce prepared casters can already learn basically every spell in the book...
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 01:53:38 PM by faeryn »

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2015, 03:35:28 AM »
I made a spreadsheet with all the numbers and levels with and without your addition and I must say that I still think that the inclusion of 1/2 HD to spells save DC is way too potent. It's giving somewhere between 85% to 115% of success. It seems to me way too one-sided.

Offline faeryn

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Re: Alternative Progression & Casting
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2015, 05:51:22 PM »
I suppose if it is to much I could go with a calculation someone else posted not to long ago...
10 + Ability Mod + 1/2HD - (Max Spell Lv - Spell Lv)
it gives a slight edge over the default calculation and makes partial casters more viable at high levels.

I also had an idea to use CL in the calculation but due to all the tricks available to boost CL through the roof I figured that'd be a terrible idea...


An idea I had to help mundane classes a bit more...

Fighter class is removed instead all mundane classes gain bonus feats according to the fighter class progression chart using the total of all your non-casting class levels to determine the equivalent fighter level.

Partial casting classes (Max Spell Lv 5) gain bonus feats according to the psychic warrior progression chart using the total of all your partial casting class levels to determine the equivalent psychic warrior level.

Fears requiring fighter levels use the total of your non-casting + 2/3 partial casting class levels instead.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 10:14:02 PM by faeryn »