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Creative Corner => Campaign Settings and World-Building => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Mindscapes => Topic started by: Amechra on September 16, 2012, 06:09:17 PM
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Sorry, thought I'd start this thread for you; you can edit the OP any way you want, I don't mind.
But... yeah.
We need to discuss this, and to supply suggestions for the greater glory of Homebrewing!
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I have had a dream/memory focused martial discipline on the back burner for a while now which you're welcome to incorporate, provided that you want to and that I ever get it finished.
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Thanks guys. Glad to see I'm not the only one who is enthusiastic about this. :D Now... to find the time to actually do something with it... :P
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The description of your "door and windows locking" dream scares the fucking pants off of me.
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Just incase this is where we will discuss this, then I'll just paste what I put on the main thread.
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I'm not sure how Lucid Dreaming works in DnD, but I'd like to help. I tried to help someone on GITP with their Psychonaut but seemed either life got in the way, and it got put on the back burner.
Question. Seeing as how, I'm guessing, people will be entering people's minds what do you think about the items they carry. Your Mind Pirate for example has his powers based off of the Styx-dipped weapon, right?
It was mentioned about each mental stat should play a specific role in the creation of the Mindscape. I can't remember what was suggested about which does what but I was thinking that ones intelligence(mindscape owner) determines the the strength of the monsters.
For example The mindscape performs a knowledge check. The information that the mindscape 'knows' what the strengths of the creatures. Meaning a peasant might not know about the cold resistance of a skeleton or the DR/slashing. If that is the case then the 'mental' skeleton is effected by cold and piercing and bludgeoning weapons normally.
It points out the lack of imagination and risk from a commoner. Personal experience will play a role in case the individual has had personally seen undead or aberrations.
I also had the thought that every mind should have a pseudo layout for those that have experience in traveling in mindscapes.
For example. "Hopes/Dreams" could be located in a general place in relation to ones' "Secrets" location
Just thought that there could be two kinds of combat as well. One is the normal kind (incase it is possible for the average non-Mindscape class can be brought inside. And for the Mindscape-related classes they have the ability to ... battle with their wills.
I think that maybe class-type, race-type/sub-type,HD(life experience?) and alignment should also play a part in what the mindscape looks like inside. (kind of like a way to quickly create mindscapes incase someone dives inside the mind of an assassin.
I was thinking that the 'people' created by the mindscape should have a X% chance to have 1/2 levels in levels of the mindscape Owner has. Rogue 6 would mean that there could be level 3 rogues.
Just some thoughts.
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Just incase this is where we will discuss this, then I'll just paste what I put on the main thread.
Good idea!
Phae did you ever read or play Dream Park or Amber? It seems like you could incorporate some elements from those in this.
For example, control of dreams could be like walking through Shadows, in terms of adding and subtracting things....
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Never played Amber, but had some friends who were crazy about it. I just never got around to playing it with them. :P
What I'm thinking I'll do as far as Mindscape combat is have it work like normal combat for most people (after all, if they wind up there, they probably don't even know they're dreaming/in someone else's dream). The Lucid Dreaming skill offers a lot of other options IIRC, and I'll probably give some classes/creatures extra options like being able to modify the "environment" with some kind of a check, reproduce certain SLAs, etc. (Some of this is IIRC covered by Lucid Dreaming, though... I really need to go reread that...).
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Look up the Dreamtelling feat.
It lets you use dreams to tell the future.
That should be possible inside dreams; at least to tell how the dream is going to end, as it were.
Also, there should be skill tricks you can take that let you use Lucid Dreaming to replace other skills, like using it for physical checks (maybe even mental checks; dreams don't have to make sense.)
Also, may I suggest that you need rules for if someone's dreams become nightmares?
Or at least the weird stuff that my dreams come up with, like mind controlling movies on pirate ships (I caught a glimpse of the screen on that one, and it was a pair of women in bride's dresses talking), or an Irish family capturing a rocket ship, or robots ranting about their imperfections, or cakes that turn people evil?
THERE NEEDS TO BE RULES FOR AD-LIBBING MAGIC ITEMS THAT MAKE NO SENSE!
Oh, and thanks for using the Resider-in-Dreams.
Man, it seems that the only PrCs that I feel totally comfortable making are crazy Warlock hybrids...
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What if you create an ability to change a dream into a nightmare. I see a nightmare specialist that infects one of the character's mental manifestations buy having it turn into a werewolf or vampire and program it to attack the main form of owner of the mindscape. That way its target's fear against himself.
I think we need to know how one fights ones own nightmare. Also need to figure what determines number of layer one mindscape has.
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The description of your "door and windows locking" dream scares the fucking pants off of me.
Yeah... it's pretty fucking scary... It's also a recurring dream nightmare that I had for years...
I also used to have night terrors back when I was in my early 20s... but I don't even think I want to talk about those in detail... I'd basically have nightmares where I'd be partially awake but paralyzed, and would open my eyes and still be seeing and feeling the lingering images from the nightmare...
I've also had dreams where I was "the monster"... running people down, ripping them to shreds, etc... So yeah, I've had an interesting dream-life, to say the least. :P
And we definitely need to have a way to allow PCs to play out the way things can be completely unrealistic and bizzarre in dreams, like stretching your arm across a football field and back like plastic man, etc.
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At least your dreams have the grace to be honest about how horrific they are.
I've had a dream (and if I have a dream that I remember things about, I remember every detail of it), wherein one of my friends had a nice long talk with me about how love was a horrible thing that would end with me alone, dead in a gutter.
You know how dreams make perfect sense when you are in them? Yeah.
But, more on topic!
I would suggest giving dreams a sort of "planar traits toolkit", you know, so that you could have people do weird things that are consistent with the dream. Manipulating these traits could be a prestige class or a feat tree, depending.
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And we definitely need to have a way to allow PCs to play out the way things can be completely unrealistic and bizzarre in dreams, like stretching your arm across a football field and back like plastic man, etc.
OK, how about this. Each char gets a pool of Dream Points based on their ranks in Lucid Dreaming. Then they can spend those DP to achieve various effects in the Dreamscape.
How they gain access to different categories of effects could be done a few different ways:
(1) different LD skills like different knowledges
(2) LD skill tricks
(3) LD feats
(4) some other mechanic
(and any of those could be tied to a class.)
For the form-changing thing, feel free to use a variation on the Morphling's Morph ability, spending DP instead of Morph points.
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OK, I'm going to try and give this forum a bit more structure. First, I think we need to outline design goals: just what is the purpose of this game subsystem (which is basically how I'm envisioning it), what do we want to be able to do with/in it, and how can we achieve those goals using existing rules, tweaking/cannibalizing existing rules, or homebrewing from scratch where necessary.
I also definitely want a "brainstorming"/"data collection" thread where people post things that they've experienced in dreams, heard about from the dreams of others, or seen in movies about dreams (Inception, Altered States, Flatliners), so we can adjust our design goals include interesting dream elements that get brought up there. I'm going to go ahead and start those, and maybe move some posts around into them.
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Any comments on my suggestion?
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Not sure you should tie major mechanics to skills unless you're going whole hog like Truenaming. It tends to make skills that don't act like skills, and encourages a larger gulf between the haves and have-nots.
If you want that dream-shfting DP thing, I'd suggest a class or feat chain that can also be used to some extent outside of dreams.
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@SirP: I'm not sure. I think this stuff should be useable more or less at will. In the dreams I've experienced, there didn't really seem to be any limit to how often I could do things. However, I might be interested in using a "concentration-based" resource mechanic like the one in your Aetherforge class (I call it concentration-based because basically it amounts to you can only "concentrate" on so many effects at once, but there is no limit on how many "per day" you can use). That seems to lend itself perfectly to this, and I really like that mechanic. I might want to make a class that uses it myself at some point. I remember seeing something like that before, but can't remember where. Did you get the idea from another homebrew class?
I don't think I'd want to have the Dream Points determined solely by ranks in Lucid Dreaming, though, as I certainly don't want the effects achievable via Lucid Dreaming to be for "trained" users only. Perhaps your Dream Points are equal to your highest mental ability modifier (minimum 1), or your ranks in Lucid Dreaming, whichever is higher? (With a bonus based on whether it is your dream or not?)
@SirP and Garryl: I do plan on having Skill Tricks, Feats, and Classes based on the things in this subsystem, which will represent more and more of an investment in the mechanics. I'll also give the most highly invested ones the ability to bring their dream-based abilities into the "real world" in some way, as Amechra's PrC does, and as one of the PCs in SirP's "Evil is our game" PbP can (although perhaps not to the extent that she can :lmao ).
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@SirP: I'm not sure. I think this stuff should be useable more or less at will. In the dreams I've experienced, there didn't really seem to be any limit to how often I could do things. However, I might be interested in using a "concentration-based" resource mechanic like the one in your Aetherforge class (I call it concentration-based because basically it amounts to you can only "concentrate" on so many effects at once, but there is no limit on how many "per day" you can use). That seems to lend itself perfectly to this, and I really like that mechanic. I might want to make a class that uses it myself at some point. I remember seeing something like that before, but can't remember where. Did you get the idea from another homebrew class?
Kinda. The Dementist gets warp points which he can use and then reuse when the warping/summoning is over. It takes on an entirely new dynamic when used on spell effects, though.
@SirP and Garryl: I do plan on having Skill Tricks, Feats, and Classes based on the things in this subsystem, which will represent more and more of an investment in the mechanics. I'll also give the most highly invested ones the ability to bring their dream-based abilities into the "real world" in some way, as Amechra's PrC does, and as one of the PCs in SirP's "Evil is our game" PbP can (although perhaps not to the extent that she can :lmao ).
Well yeah... she's pretty nutso lol. But custom DM-fiat items will do that for you ;)
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Awakened Dreamer pic:
(http://www.dailygalaxy.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/12/12/slowtime_neo_2.jpg)
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Nice. :D
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Well, what is the Matrix but the highly controlled dreamscape of a supercomputer into which all human minds are forced? It's a lovely fit.
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Seriously, as I was reading what you had written, my mind was going "Matrix... Matrix... Matrix... Neo... The One... Matrix... There is no spoon... Matrix..."
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So... thoughts on what else to add to this? Including abilities for the Awakened Dreamer?
I'm thinking as the PrC progresses, it will gain the ability to apply Lucid Dreaming in more and more powerful ways onto reality, leading up to a natural entry to the capstone.
I'm thinking we should also add a new use of Autohypnosis: Fall Asleep, DC 10, full-round action. :D
I think Autohypnosis and/or Concentration should also give synergy bonuses to Lucid Dreaming.
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I was thinking if you can use autohypnosis to make yourself fall asleep, how about putting others to sleep with a higher check.
How about an ability
A dream within a dream: similar to a time regression spell. At any point where you take damage or fail a save you make a check to see if you had been on another layer. Or maybe its a check force everyone to another layer. Not sure how to make it work.
Was wondering about how hard it would be to alter reality to heal yourself. Couldn't everyone just heal themselves. Make it a full round action not sure about the DC but it should be based on the seriousness of injury, and excess success heals an additional point of hp.
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I definitely want to include Boz's new martial discipline (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7450.0) in this... somehow.
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So, it seems likely that very shortly I will be homebrewing a base class inspired by Dom from Inception, called the Extractor. I will of course port it over here from gitp when I can (it'll be for a contest, so once the contest is closed). It's going to use Infinite Shore, among other things.
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So, it seems likely that very shortly I will be homebrewing a base class inspired by Dom from Inception, called the Extractor. I will of course port it over here from gitp when I can (it'll be for a contest, so once the contest is closed). It's going to use Infinite Shore, among other things.
:clap Can't wait to see it! Feel free to use my material, if that is allowed for those contests.
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Something that needs (desperately, I would say) to be added to Lucid Dreaming: finding other dreamers/dreams.
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I've been working on and off on an RPG where one "subset" of villains are essentially horrifying memetic dream worlds (the nicest one by far is the one where everything works like clockwork.)
Would you like me to dump my notes on the Carcossas? They'll be great inspiration for wandering into nightmares, or, hell, the dreams of things better left unspoken.
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I've been working on and off on an RPG where one "subset" of villains are essentially horrifying memetic dream worlds (the nicest one by far is the one where everything works like clockwork.)
Would you like me to dump my notes on the Carcossas? They'll be great inspiration for wandering into nightmares, or, hell, the dreams of things better left unspoken.
Please feel free to make your own thread(s) here and put whatever you want in them, if its related to dreams, nightmares, or even hallucinations or something. The more, the merrier. :D
Something that needs (desperately, I would say) to be added to Lucid Dreaming: finding other dreamers/dreams.
True. Thoughts? For other dreams, the DC should be based on how well you know the subject I think. Agreed?
And for finding other dreamers within the dream you are in... you could just use emulated spells, but it would be more satisfying if it was rolled into the skill itself, wouldn't it? Hmm... how about an opposed Lucid Dreaming check, if they're actively trying to hide from you? Otherwise, something easy like DC 10+# levels separated you are from them.
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Oooh I like the Carcossas idea. :D Especially the "infection" part. Maybe the dreamer keeps being drawn back into dreams with themes from the Carcossa night after night, requiring Lucid Dreaming checks to avoid (which increase in difficulty). We of course need to include some way of breaking this cycle, and what happens after they fail enough times. I'm thinking they start seeing elements of the Carcossa even when awake (hallucinating, maybe based on the Confusion spell, % chance to occur at the beginning of each encounter or something like that. And of course we need what happens when their dream is ultimately consumed.
Is that more drawn out that what you were going for?
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That actually works quite well; I've got two of the nicer Carcossas posted fluff-wise.
They aren't places where I would vacation, but they aren't as nasty as some of the others.
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Something that needs (desperately, I would say) to be added to Lucid Dreaming: finding other dreamers/dreams.
True. Thoughts? For other dreams, the DC should be based on how well you know the subject I think. Agreed?
And for finding other dreamers within the dream you are in... you could just use emulated spells, but it would be more satisfying if it was rolled into the skill itself, wouldn't it? Hmm... how about an opposed Lucid Dreaming check, if they're actively trying to hide from you? Otherwise, something easy like DC 10+# levels separated you are from them.
These seem like good ideas.
Also I'm reading the LD stuff more carefully, and it seems I've been trying to reinvent some wheels you already invented. :banghead
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Something that needs (desperately, I would say) to be added to Lucid Dreaming: finding other dreamers/dreams.
True. Thoughts? For other dreams, the DC should be based on how well you know the subject I think. Agreed?
And for finding other dreamers within the dream you are in... you could just use emulated spells, but it would be more satisfying if it was rolled into the skill itself, wouldn't it? Hmm... how about an opposed Lucid Dreaming check, if they're actively trying to hide from you? Otherwise, something easy like DC 10+# levels separated you are from them.
These seem like good ideas.
Also I'm reading the LD stuff more carefully, and it seems I've been trying to reinvent some wheels you already invented. :banghead
great minds think alike :D
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For Lucid Dreaming, the DP cost of Instill Doubt needs a minimum (unless you want to start instilling doubt in the Wis 1 buddies you brought along).
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For Lucid Dreaming, the DP cost of Instill Doubt needs a minimum (unless you want to start instilling doubt in the Wis 1 buddies you brought along).
It's meant to only work on the guy whose dream you're inside (and only if it's not your dream). I'll clarify that.
The idea is based on how suggestible your mind can be, even to the point of altering your perceptions. Even when awake, people can be led to believe (and even hallucinate) all kinds of untrue things, given the right conditions. In dreams, this is certainly amplified. Ever had the experience of thinking "well at least it's not X" in a dream, which then of course immediately causes it to be "X"? That's what I'm shooting for. Basically, if you invade someone else's dream, you can then cause the dream to morph in all kinds of crazy ways just by suggesting those things to the dreamer.
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Anyone have Secrets of Sarlona? I see there is a category of feats called Dreamtouched in there, but I don't know what they do...
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http://home.geniusdex.net/pieter/dnd/Eberron/Secrets%20of%20Sarlona.pdf
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http://home.geniusdex.net/pieter/dnd/Eberron/Secrets%20of%20Sarlona.pdf
Yeah... just finished getting it from another site right before I saw this. :P
Edit: So they're so-so. Nothing to write home about. The Mind Mask feat (unrelated) is actually pretty decent, though.
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I present, for your perusal, The Extractor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272#post14312272).
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I present, for your perusal, The Extractor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272#post14312272).
Huzzah! Glad to see someone else using my material! :D It looks like it will be quite a complicated class to play, and will require significant cooperation from the DM, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Much the same could be said for anything in this subforum. :P
While looking over it, and my version of Lucid Dreaming, I wondered if I should remove the Alter Reality usage of the skill. Is that too powerful, even if its effects are limited to a Dreamscape? It is also limited by character level, due to it requiring an escalating number of Dream Points depending on the level of spell you're emulating. But still, it makes someone trained in Lucid Dreaming orders of magnitude more powerful within a dreamscape than someone who isn't, although I guess that's kind of the point... And the non-trained can still use their own skills within the dreamscape, also. So it's not like they're more defenseless than normal, either... Just mulling it over.
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You're letting a skill be roughly equivalent to full casting under certain specific circumstances. However, it's quite possible to generate those circumstances yourself (invade someone's dream yourself, and then pull them into the Dreamheart to make it "real"... you even have a skill usage for that). You can easily generate spell effects beyond what a full caster can do at an equivalent level (from skill ranks alone, you're at Wizard +2 class levels, and if you pump your Wis score, the sky is the limit).
If you must keep Alter Reality, I'd suggest treating it as an illusion (Will disbelief, as it is only a dream after all).
Oh, btw and unrelated, maybe the Dreamcatcher should also stop dream stability from dropping when others fail their checks by 10 or less?
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You're letting a skill be roughly equivalent to full casting under certain specific circumstances. However, it's quite possible to generate those circumstances yourself (invade someone's dream yourself, and then pull them into the Dreamheart to make it "real"... you even have a skill usage for that). You can easily generate spell effects beyond what a full caster can do at an equivalent level (from skill ranks alone, you're at Wizard +2 class levels, and if you pump your Wis score, the sky is the limit).
If you must keep Alter Reality, I'd suggest treating it as an illusion (Will disbelief, as it is only a dream after all).
Oh, btw and unrelated, maybe the Dreamcatcher should also stop dream stability from dropping when others fail their checks by 10 or less?
Wiz+2=artificer. So there is precedent for that, but of course that's a whole class, not just a single skill... The Dreamcatcher offers a cheap way to avoid the perils of Dream Assassins, though (which is exactly why I made it so cheap). Still, I think your suggestion of offering a Will save on all effects is a good one. So I'll at least add that.
Why would you want it to remove the stability drops? Because they're supposed to protect from nightmares? I guess that makes sense.
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Yeah. Just because a Dream Assassin has a harder time murderating you, doesn't mean he can't make your life miserable and prevent you from ever getting a restful night's sleep again (unless you get security to throw him out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBAuMpOpSnA)).
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Yeah. Just because a Dream Assassin has a harder time murderating you, doesn't mean he can't make your life miserable and prevent you from ever getting a restful night's sleep again (unless you get security to throw him out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBAuMpOpSnA)).
I think that's OK. I actually worried a bit that the Dreamcatcher was a bit too big (and too easy) of a nerf to the system, especially since there will be at least a few classes based around using it.
Funny clip. :P
Also, even without adding a Will save, the people the "Dream Assassin" pulls into the Dream Heart won't be entirely helpless. They'll still have full use of all the faculties they would have had in the waking world (spells, items, etc). Should I make that explicit somewhere? I probably should...
So... now we need to make a Dream Assassin class... :D
Edit: I changed how Instill Doubt works (made it a Will save with the DC set by the agressor's Lucid Dreaming check, rather than an opposed check; and also increased the cost to the target's Will save modifier). I also added a Will save to all uses of Alter Reality.
I can't wait to use this in a game now. :cool
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Separate issue, so I decided to reply rather than just edit it into the last post:
Should I add a feat to boost your maximum Dream Points? On the one hand, it will let you access crazy things like higher level spells via the Alter Reality of Lucid Dreaming, but on the other hand it is only going to benefit you while Dreamwalking, which will likely not take up a large portion of most games.
I'm tempted to do this, and then make this a prereq for some classes related to this skill, but would like feedback...
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So... now we need to make a Dream Assassin class... :D
I think you mean "Factotum". Particularly Factotums of noble birth....... ;)
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So... now we need to make a Dream Assassin class... :D
I think you mean "Factotum". Particularly Factotums of noble birth....... ;)
lol, yeah, I know, there are classes which could perform this role admirably (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6900.0)already. Maybe we should just make up an organization for them, instead. :P
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I present, for your perusal, The Extractor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272#post14312272).
a) You've got too much going on there. It's like the complexity of a Factotum plus the complexity of an Incarnate (the Factotum-level complexity itself being Bard + Rogue).
b) Too much essentia at low levels. You'll have more than you can use at several levels, and you're almost at full capacity for most of the other levels. That makes the essentia mechanics meaningless (especially the class feature that lets you get even more). Normal meldshaping classes only get about 1/2 to 2/3 of the essentia they can stuff into their class-granted soulmelds at any given level.
c) The fluff of the class meldshaping (er, dreamshaping) is that everyone else is wrong? Don' be doing dat! Just say something like they can shape the raw dreamstuff much like souls, or better yet, they shape the energy in the dreams of souls, rather than the energy of the souls themselves.
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I present, for your perusal, The Extractor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272#post14312272).
a) You've got too much going on there. It's like the complexity of a Factotum plus the complexity of an Incarnate (the Factotum-level complexity itself being Bard + Rogue).
b) Too much essentia at low levels. You'll have more than you can use at several levels, and you're almost at full capacity for most of the other levels. That makes the essentia mechanics meaningless (especially the class feature that lets you get even more). Normal meldshaping classes only get about 1/2 to 2/3 of the essentia they can stuff into their class-granted soulmelds at any given level.
c) The fluff of the class meldshaping (er, dreamshaping) is that everyone else is wrong? Don' be doing dat! Just say something like they can shape the raw dreamstuff much like souls, or better yet, they shape the energy in the dreams of souls, rather than the energy of the souls themselves.
I don't know enough about Incarnum to comment on the rest, but the bolded part is the best part of the class. :D I know this is probably implied, but you should state it explicity: while the Extractor thinks that everything is a Dream, and that he's just manipulating Dreamstuff, those knowledgeable in arcana and the planes dismiss this as preposterous, and think that Extractors are just another version of spellcaster, albeit one whose manipulation of magic is based upon their own delusion. Leave it to the reader to determine who is correct. :P
I should probably put the exact same thing in my Awakened Dreamer PrC, since the fluff on it is pretty much exactly the same...
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I present, for your perusal, The Extractor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272#post14312272).
a) You've got too much going on there. It's like the complexity of a Factotum plus the complexity of an Incarnate (the Factotum-level complexity itself being Bard + Rogue).
Yes, that's exactly what it is. Since my original concept was "incarnum + factotum w/ infinite shore instead of arcane dilettante", I don't think that's likely to change... sorry! lol.
b) Too much essentia at low levels. You'll have more than you can use at several levels, and you're almost at full capacity for most of the other levels. That makes the essentia mechanics meaningless (especially the class feature that lets you get even more). Normal meldshaping classes only get about 1/2 to 2/3 of the essentia they can stuff into their class-granted soulmelds at any given level.
Good call. I reduced the number of soulmelds, but then forgot to reduce the essentia too.
c) The fluff of the class meldshaping (er, dreamshaping) is that everyone else is wrong? Don' be doing dat! Just say something like they can shape the raw dreamstuff much like souls, or better yet, they shape the energy in the dreams of souls, rather than the energy of the souls themselves.
I'm going to use phaedrus's suggestion here.
In other news, I've changed the maneuvers to per-encounter instead of per-day, and at the suggestion of someone on gitp I'm going to overhaul the extraction mechanics entirely. The new idea is to make it more organic: rather than "roll a bunch of skill checks, here's your information", the various pieces are going to be tactical options that you can use against your opponent. Things like "design a maze to prevent your target from benefitting from his dreamscape", "use gather info to locate specific informatics that you want", "use bluff to avoid notice", etc. Also I'm going to build in the Lucid Dreaming "Nightmare" setting, since it's so clearly based on Inception.
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For your perusal (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9173.msg181323#msg181323), and also to be linked here.