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Creative Corner => Game Design => Topic started by: Bard on November 06, 2011, 09:44:29 PM

Title: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bard on November 06, 2011, 09:44:29 PM
Let's get this board started! (Not that it ever was really alive even before, but I'll try)

They're the core of all RPGs, and there's hundreds of them around, ranging from the simple "d100 must be lower than skill" of BASIC systems, increasing in complexity from a still somewhat simple and common "dX+skill+stat modifier+bonuses" used among MANY others by D20, True20 and Cyberpunk 2020, to multiple dice ones like WoD, to multiple dice of different types (Savage Worlds) to "toss a bunch of dices and pray the old gods for explanations" of Cthulhutech.

But what's your favorite ones?
And why? What advantages and disadvantages do you feel each one have?
Does it depends on the type of game you're running or it's universal?
Anything you can think of that could be interesting on this topic, I'd like to hear!
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: savagehominid on November 06, 2011, 10:20:24 PM
For me, it isn't so much the dice mechanic themselves but how they dice are "used".

Burning Wheel is a D6 based dice pool, roll and count successes. HOWEVER, the rules always have explicit outcomes for success and failure. Whether it s discussed by Intent/Task, or a hard rule like the maneuvers in Fight. You always know what outcomes lie on either side, it avoids the "murk".

Sorcerer uses an interesting success (called victories) system. You simply count how many dice you have, that are HIGHER than your opponents. Then those victories carry over to your next roll, if it builds directly off your success. This leads to a forward moving, intense feel when the dice hit the table. Also during conflict, everyone can do ONE thing and these are discussed openly. If you want to command your demon, and dodge out of the way of a bullet...guess what, you have to make a choice.

Apocalypse World's is simply, roll 2d6+stat. 7-9 is a success with complications, 10+ is a full success. A bit like Burning Wheel in the fact that each time the dice hit the table, you have explicit outcomes for success and failure. However, each time you roll the dice this is built into a move. There is simply no "stat check" but fictional beats with set consequences.

Now each of these systems do different things, I think that is key.

Personally, when I use dice in a traditional game (like Runequest or D&D), I adopt techniques I've learned from the above games. It cuts through the murk, or the whole meaningless die rolling that happens on occasion.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: tsuyoshikentsu on November 06, 2011, 10:52:58 PM
Honestly, nWoD's. (This also counts Shadowrun, though to a lesser extent there.) It's very easy for me to both explain to new players and adjudicate on the fly.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Nachofan99 on November 06, 2011, 11:54:05 PM
I like Shadowrun d6's with "joy of 4" modified system.  Target number is roughly 4 for everything - take dice roll them.  Net the Opposed successes, stage up or down for every 2 successes exceeded. EZ PZ and super fast resolution.  Instead of using Target Number increases or decreases, you instead require more or less base successes.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bozwevial on November 07, 2011, 12:18:09 AM
Dicepools are something I may have to try with my fledgling group, although I'll give them time to adapt to the d20 system first. Those would make things a whole lot more consistent.

Fudge dice of FATE/DFRPG fame are pretty nifty too, though.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: brainpiercing on November 07, 2011, 08:05:05 AM
I would like a system where you rolled blocks of bell-curve distributed dice - i.e. a dice pool system with a pool of blocks of 3d6s. That's very complicated to physically roll, but nowadays it's easy to use a laptop at the table.

Then you can have a stat+skill mechanic with variable TNs from 3 to 18, with clear-cut rules for what modifiers affect DP and what affect TN. That way you have great flexibility, while retaining a nice distribution of probabilities - or vice versa. And you could bring back SR3s Attack Power and Damage ratings for combat, which is, to date, my favourite damage mechanic.

I'm actually in the (very lengthy) process of writing a sandbox system using these rules.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: veekie on November 07, 2011, 08:52:30 AM
Personally, of the dice mechanics I know of, FATE is probably my favorite, followed by d20.

Fudge dice(FATE)
Description Effectively 4d3-8, you roll 4 d6s, each of which has three outcomes, +1, 0 and -1. All the dice combined + your roll modifier sets it.
Advantages Strong bell curve that stays between -4 to +4.
Easy to buy. You can just use d6s if you can't find fudge.
Disadvantages Slower than 1 roll systems, you need to add it all up.
Potential swing is larger than most modifiers in the system. This is mitigated by the strong bell curve of the system of course.

d20 rocks on 1 roll, which makes resolution very fast, but its completely linear and thus swingy. Skill contribution varies by level. Mostly valued for speed of resolution and easily estimated probabilities.

WoD d10. Hideously swingy AND slow. You roll a number of d10s equal to your dicepool(two numbers ranging from 1-5, subtract circumstantials from the pool before rolling), d10s that get above a certain value(8, 9 and 10) count as successes. 5+ successes is effectively the critical. So its swingy, biased towards failure, since you can roll 0 successes even with 10 dice(most talent + most skill). Slow too, because of the number of comparisons you have to make per dice(form dice pool, ask for penalties and subtract, roll and roll explosions). And it explodes. Mitigation allows rerolling, but not gaining success.

Exalted d10 is somewhat similar, except you can buy successes, and it explodes by simply doubling successes on a 10. Additionally, the subtraction step is removed, you roll against static target number of successes. This speeds it up, but makes it harder to meet targets consistently without purchasing successes.

System independents:
Opposed rolls -Never liked these in any system, they massively overrate luck's influence on the exchange.
Exploding dice - Much like critical failure tables, these make fun stories once in a while, but they generally do little more than waste time of resolution, and add more swing.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on November 07, 2011, 10:13:41 AM
Seconding the Exalted d10 system. I'm going to be incorporating dice pools as a mechanic for some of my homebrew classes.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: archangel.arcanis on November 07, 2011, 10:29:58 AM
I really like the Arcanis RPG system. It is 2d10+Attribute die+skill modifier. That levels out the bell curve a fair bit, and gives skill and talent (attribute die) roughly the same level at first with skill being more consistent and surpassing talent as you go up.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: sirpercival on November 07, 2011, 10:34:43 AM
+1 to the Fate system.  It's actually more like 4d3-8, but whatever.  :)

I think the whole system from the Dresden Files RPG (I'm not sure how much is unique and how much is standard Fate system) is great, with Aspects and Fate Points.  It really encourages role-playing as a mechanism to actually alter the outcomes of the dice rolls.  In D&D you can roleplay something but there are no guidelines for what sorts of modifiers that RPing should apply to your die roll.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Talore on November 07, 2011, 10:43:42 AM
I am very partial to the "What I Say Goes" rule in Brikwars, the LEGO-based wargame. Essentially, if players disagree on a ruling or measurement, rather than checking the rules or petitioning an outside observer, they are to roll dice, and whoever rolls higher gets to dictate what happens (with their choice made before the roll!). It isn't exploitable either as the rules explicitly state that if people try to exploit any aspect of the game then they should be drop-kicked.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Dan2 on November 07, 2011, 05:11:01 PM
I have to tip my hat to the good old d20+modifier roll.  It's fantastic for fast play and reading odds.  Downside: scrounging for that last +1 you have or having to recalculate modifier.
It's great for reliability in high-powered systems because in many (perhaps most?) the modifier can outweigh the roll itself.

Success-counting dice pools (a la Burning Wheel) is better for a grittier style of gameplay.  As the challenge goes up, it goes *way* up.

I've never been a fan of "additive" dice pools for resolution mechanics.  I can understand that you get a nice bell curve out of it, but I have trouble finding a style where I'd rather have it than one of the other two above.

I haven't really played with any others.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Havok4 on November 07, 2011, 05:26:51 PM
I am personally very fond of fate/fudge dice.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Mixster on November 07, 2011, 05:42:29 PM
I personally prefer the D100 under your skill that MRQ (Now Legend) has done some exceedingly nice things with. It's simple and fast to roll, yet it gets a lot of tactical depth through different modifiers and time constraints, it's also one of the easiest thing to wing since a character that is a professional at a task would be around 75% chance of succeeding those tests when in a stressed situation.

It's simple and beautiful.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bozwevial on November 07, 2011, 05:45:56 PM
I personally prefer the D100 under your skill that MRQ (Now Legend) has done some exceedingly nice things with. It's simple and fast to roll, yet it gets a lot of tactical depth through different modifiers and time constraints, it's also one of the easiest thing to wing since a character that is a professional at a task would be around 75% chance of succeeding those tests when in a stressed situation.

It's simple and beautiful.
I've seen that used in Unknown Armies before. 100 is a critical failure, 01 is a critical success, matching numbers are "cherries" for martial arts and magic skills, and you can swap the numbers you roll for your obsession skill (75 could become 57). At least, I think that's how it goes.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bard on November 07, 2011, 06:00:01 PM
Took a while to answer, but I wanted to get the time to go to the local RPG club and give a good read at some of the games mentioned up here.

First of all, I haven't found yet something that fully satisfies me (that's part of the reason why I created the topic)
* I do like simple and fast systems dice+relevant bonuses>difficulty, but I don't like the linearity of the chances. Some have even worse issues concerning the "weight" of the stat vs skill vs chance in the roll.
* I do not like most of the "multiple dice, success counting" systems like wod/nwod simply because there are too many dices (Scion is even worse, the only time I played I ended up tossing more than a dozen dice for the damage of one of my attacks with a NEW character). It slows down the game and that's never a good thing, not even for a non-combat one.
* I find Deadlands Classic (and if I recall well Savage Worlds that's based on it) a nice solution and it's possibly my second favourite, but yet not good enough (stat determines type of dice, skill number of dices, get highest value, explode and sum maximum results, compare to difficulty class, degrees of success and failure every 5 point of distance from the target number, you can improve both number and type of dices with experience points. you can "buy" successes). 
* I'm curious about Fudge, I'll have to try it at a first chance, I won't say anything about it till I see it in action.
* I'm still undecided about BASIC system and derivatives (like the ones mentioned by Mixster and Bozwevial)

For now, my favorite system would be sum of 2/3 dices + bonuses vs target number, it's reasonabily fast, less swingy, can be optimized (possibly I'd go with 3d10, since they're common dices and big enough to allow a more precise fine-tuning of the weight of other aspects). But for some reason I can't exactly point out, I'm still not 100% convinced about it.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: sirpercival on November 07, 2011, 06:05:28 PM
I have a homebrew system I developed with a friend of mine for a zombie apocalypse game.  Basically, you roll d6's, from 1 to 3 depending on how random the result should be.  For complete randomness, it's 1d6 (there are very few situations where this happens).  For situations with moderate central tendency, like weapon attacks, you roll 2d6, and for strong central tendency like skills you roll 3d6.  Any modifiers adjust the target number, not the roll, and degree of success or failure is given by how much you succeed or fail by.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: xaotiq1 on November 07, 2011, 08:47:43 PM
I'm going to second Bard's choice of the Deadlands/Savage Worlds dice system. Keeps it fairly tidy. Fast, furious and fun.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: BG_Josh on November 07, 2011, 09:05:28 PM
It is something of a misnomer to compare dicepool games.  Comparing Burning Wheel to WoD is like comparing a helicopter to a duck. 

BW is an elegant system that is one of the most flexible.  You can do a lot with it and it empowers the players.
Apocalypse world is similarly elegant.  Less far reaching, but faster.
Other good games: Mouseguard, Lady Blackbird, Misspent youth, or shock.

I would venture if you like fate you will love Apocalypse world.

an interesting system i have not played yet is warhammer fantasy
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: veekie on November 07, 2011, 09:51:21 PM
Another element for a lot of dice mechanics is the odd dice. When you want to stock up in a pinch, d6 systems(whether straight, target or pool) have an advantage there.

Especially for bag-o-dice games like WoD. If they used d6s it'd have helped.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Shining Phoenix on November 08, 2011, 09:14:06 AM
I'm torn between XdY+Z and another system called, "reverse dice-pool."

The way reverse dice-pool works is this: You roll some number of dice (The instance I saw was with d6s); if none of the dice come up 1, you succeed. Difficulty is adjusted by adding and removing dice. If you care what, exactly, caused you to fail, you can use differently colored dice for different things. The more 1s you get, the worse the failure.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Mooncrow on November 08, 2011, 11:10:20 AM
I'm torn between XdY+Z and another system called, "reverse dice-pool."

The way reverse dice-pool works is this: You roll some number of dice (The instance I saw was with d6s); if none of the dice come up 1, you succeed. Difficulty is adjusted by adding and removing dice. If you care what, exactly, caused you to fail, you can use differently colored dice for different things. The more 1s you get, the worse the failure.

So, effectively, you're trying to roll as few dice as possible?  Hmm, I have to say from a flavor perspective, I wouldn't like that a whole lot, though I can't really comment on the mathematical aspect.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 08, 2011, 12:32:56 PM
I like d20 b/c the probabilities are very easy to calculate.  Although they are linear, meaning it can be swingy.  But, it's very easy to eyeball what your odds are.  d100 has the same property, and is perhaps even a bit easier in this regard. 

In the dice pools world, I happen to not like WoD's bucket of dice that I have to keep track of them all to see whether they are successes or not.  That's a complaint that applies to lots of games as well -- the probabilities are hard to track (is this risky or safe for me to attempt?) and it does seem time-consuming. 

The only one along these lines that I actually enjoy is Godlike/Wild Talent's one-roll engine.  It's a d10 dice pool, but you look for matches (i.e., three 9s, two 6s, that sort of thing).  The advantage it has is that it's not just binary, success v. failure, the numbers on the dice (referred to as the "height) mean something to the game, as do the amount of dice you have in the match (the "width").  So, there's a good reason to actually look at those dice.  It's also the only game I've ever played that has the whole declaring what you do and then actually doing it in some order where you may be interrupted mechanic that actually works. 
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bard on November 08, 2011, 02:45:50 PM
I'm torn between XdY+Z and another system called, "reverse dice-pool."

The way reverse dice-pool works is this: You roll some number of dice (The instance I saw was with d6s); if none of the dice come up 1, you succeed. Difficulty is adjusted by adding and removing dice. If you care what, exactly, caused you to fail, you can use differently colored dice for different things. The more 1s you get, the worse the failure.

So, effectively, you're trying to roll as few dice as possible?  Hmm, I have to say from a flavor perspective, I wouldn't like that a whole lot, though I can't really comment on the mathematical aspect.

So, with your best roll (1 dice) you have a 17% of failure? O_o that really doesn't float for me. Easy rolls (based on the character skill in that field) should have a 100% rate of success, with maybe 10% chance of failure if some maluses come into play, or even less/none for real experts. (basically removing the need to roll at all for trivial stuff for well built characters, thus speeding up the game)
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: RobbyPants on November 08, 2011, 03:39:11 PM
Being raised on 2E's lovely THAC0 system, I loved the shit out of 3E's d20 system. So I have a bit of bias here.

I have fun with Betrayal at House on the Hill's xd3-x system. It's simple to understand and calculate average odds, and it still yields the occasional surprise.


I would like a system where you rolled blocks of bell-curve distributed dice - i.e. a dice pool system with a pool of blocks of 3d6s. That's very complicated to physically roll, but nowadays it's easy to use a laptop at the table.
I really like the Arcanis RPG system. It is 2d10+Attribute die+skill modifier. That levels out the bell curve a fair bit, and gives skill and talent (attribute die) roughly the same level at first with skill being more consistent and surpassing talent as you go up.
I like the idea of these too, but the only thing I don't like about them is that if you get a +1 to your roll, you have no easy way to know what that means in terms of a percentage increase of success.

On a flat d20, each +1 is a flat +5% increase (until you leave the RNG entirely). On a curved roll, the closer you are to the center with your TN, the larger increase you get with a +1, and the further out you are, the smaller the increase is. Basically, you can get to the point that if you're so good or so bad, you just don't care about a +1. Maybe that's a good thing though, if you design your RNG to stick close to the center.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: veekie on November 08, 2011, 03:52:36 PM
Bell curved systems mostly seem to use smaller bonuses than others I think. Granted, you don't see many bell curved systems using levels either.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: RobbyPants on November 09, 2011, 09:35:23 AM
Bell curved systems mostly seem to use smaller bonuses than others I think. Granted, you don't see many bell curved systems using levels either.
The nice thing about it is, if you control your RNG well enough, you can actually get a pretty predictable idea of what will happen on like-leveled threats. It also make it so the PCs can fight "army of mooks" easily with little danger of dying. The downside is, if they fight a BBEG much higher level, they'll find themselves missing all the time, and that sort of sucks. It might be an interesting way to balance action economy between one BBEG and four PCs, however.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bard on November 09, 2011, 11:43:39 AM
that's actually a big beef I have with some Bell-type dice mechanics, since (while I like that most of the rolls are less swingy) compared to linear one it lacks the chance for HUGE successes or failures that somewhat spice the game :\
Maybe adding a odd dice that determines a "critical" type of event could help.

Mhnn... I need to script something to draw bell curves and critical chances of dice systems lol
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: veekie on November 09, 2011, 12:27:17 PM
Bell curved systems mostly seem to use smaller bonuses than others I think. Granted, you don't see many bell curved systems using levels either.
The nice thing about it is, if you control your RNG well enough, you can actually get a pretty predictable idea of what will happen on like-leveled threats. It also make it so the PCs can fight "army of mooks" easily with little danger of dying. The downside is, if they fight a BBEG much higher level, they'll find themselves missing all the time, and that sort of sucks. It might be an interesting way to balance action economy between one BBEG and four PCs, however.
Possible, but beyond a very close threshold the PCs are failing to do anything at all, and gameplay wise thats not very interesting(hitting for ping damage is somewhat better).
You can also use a gentler curve and wider spread(though most curved systems use d6s for availability). 2d10 for example, has a spread almost as good as d20 but is a bit more consistent.

Another possibility is gambit mechanics. Many of the heavily curved systems also allow you to push your modifiers further with some luck modification resource you can expend at dramatic moments like action points or willpower.
Others let you put more at stake in a conflict(like, going from wounds to partial crippling to risking death) to get bigger dice to use(like from a 2d6+X to 3d6+X(cripple) to 4d6+X(death).
In such cases, the enemy is risking defeat and imprisonment(nonfatal), while the party is gambling on permanent damage to character in exchange for the greater luck they need to put it down.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Shining Phoenix on November 09, 2011, 01:54:27 PM
So, with your best roll (1 dice) you have a 17% of failure? O_o that really doesn't float for me. Easy rolls (based on the character skill in that field) should have a 100% rate of success, with maybe 10% chance of failure if some maluses come into play, or even less/none for real experts. (basically removing the need to roll at all for trivial stuff for well built characters, thus speeding up the game)
No; the best roll is no dice: automatic success.

Task difficulty adjusts the number of dice, and a character can have a negative base dicepool size.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Mooncrow on November 09, 2011, 02:54:07 PM
So, with your best roll (1 dice) you have a 17% of failure? O_o that really doesn't float for me. Easy rolls (based on the character skill in that field) should have a 100% rate of success, with maybe 10% chance of failure if some maluses come into play, or even less/none for real experts. (basically removing the need to roll at all for trivial stuff for well built characters, thus speeding up the game)
No; the best roll is no dice: automatic success.

Task difficulty adjusts the number of dice, and a character can have a negative base dicepool size.

But anything that you do have a chance of failing on starts at 17% and quickly ramps up from there.  That's a pretty huge gap; I think I prefer to have my systems with better incremental control over success and failure rates.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: SneeR on November 09, 2011, 03:22:48 PM
The more dice you roll, the more centralized the results and the more pronounced the bell curve, right? So rolling 5d6 would have a more pronounced bell curve than 3 d10? Just curious.

Anyways, I have debated making a combat reolution mechanic based on Demon's Souls, where damage is at a set amount, and all defenses are only damage reduction to varying degrees. However, that game judges attacks hitting on the player's skill, being a video game, meaning the weapon you are using and the attack animation (time of wielding the weapon, how it swings or stabs, etc.) are the only variables that matter besides skill.

But such a thing I fear would devolve into the realms of thac0, with chance of hit based upon what kind of weapon you use. Big weapons take a lot of time to wield, may have a small hit area, but deal a lot of base damage... It really becomes whether you can guarantee yourself a hit with skill, or if you want to use weapons with a high base chance of hitting and put skills into other aspects of character creation...
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Shining Phoenix on November 09, 2011, 04:48:14 PM
Another dice based resolution mechanic, especially for situations where the outcomes can't be divided into 'strictly better' or 'strictly worse': Roll and remove.

You start off rolling one die for a random outcome. You can add more dice; other people can add additional dice. Once all dice are rolled, each person who added a die beyond the first removes that many dice of their choice. You are left with one die, which is the result.

But anything that you do have a chance of failing on starts at 17% and quickly ramps up from there.  That's a pretty huge gap; I think I prefer to have my systems with better incremental control over success and failure rates.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Mooncrow on November 09, 2011, 04:55:52 PM
Another dice based resolution mechanic, especially for situations where the outcomes can't be divided into 'strictly better' or 'strictly worse': Roll and remove.

You start off rolling one die for a random outcome. You can add more dice; other people can add additional dice. Once all dice are rolled, each person who added a die beyond the first removes that many dice of their choice. You are left with one die, which is the result.

But anything that you do have a chance of failing on starts at 17% and quickly ramps up from there.  That's a pretty huge gap; I think I prefer to have my systems with better incremental control over success and failure rates.
  • What does having 5% and 10% failure chances add to the game?
  • If there is a case where you do want a failure chance greater than zero but less than ~15%, would it make more sense to make your victim roll the dice?

It's not just the first increment - having two dice means the chance of failure is ~30%, 3 means ~42%, etc.  The increments are simply too large at all levels.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Shining Phoenix on November 09, 2011, 05:43:13 PM
It's not just the first increment - having two dice means the chance of failure is ~30%, 3 means ~42%, etc.  The increments are simply too large at all levels.

~15%, ~30%, ~40%, ~50%, ~60%, ~65%...

I'm not terribly concerned about the space between those values. Sure, you could make a more complicated system (d20 pool, for example...), but I really don't think it's worth the extra effort. You kind of sort of have a point at the low (<15%) failure probabilities, but the equivalent of a single +-1 around the middle of the range on a d20 isn't something that a game actually needs.

EDIT: On second thought, a d20 reverse-die-pool is equivalent to lots of Save-or-Die attacks in a battle in D&D if you have good enough saves.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: brainpiercing on November 09, 2011, 07:28:52 PM
Being raised on 2E's lovely THAC0 system, I loved the shit out of 3E's d20 system. So I have a bit of bias here.

I have fun with Betrayal at House on the Hill's xd3-x system. It's simple to understand and calculate average odds, and it still yields the occasional surprise.


I would like a system where you rolled blocks of bell-curve distributed dice - i.e. a dice pool system with a pool of blocks of 3d6s. That's very complicated to physically roll, but nowadays it's easy to use a laptop at the table.
I like the idea of these too, but the only thing I don't like about them is that if you get a +1 to your roll, you have no easy way to know what that means in terms of a percentage increase of success.

On a flat d20, each +1 is a flat +5% increase (until you leave the RNG entirely). On a curved roll, the closer you are to the center with your TN, the larger increase you get with a +1, and the further out you are, the smaller the increase is. Basically, you can get to the point that if you're so good or so bad, you just don't care about a +1. Maybe that's a good thing though, if you design your RNG to stick close to the center.
The point is I'm wanting to use a dice pool system with stat+skill.

For instance, you have Stat 3 + Skill 3, so you roll 6 blocks of 3d6 each vs a TN determined by the difficulty of the task (via table or opposed roll). Each block that makes or exceeds the TN is a hit. Compare hits to threshold or opposing hits to determine the outcome, as usually for a DP system.

Why do I want this?
Dice-pool mechanics with only d6s are really random. Also, you can't vary the TN very much or you get into explode or pure luck territory. With 3d6 you reliably manage easy tasks, but you can vary the TN right up to 18 without exploding dice. The other nice thing is two types of mods plus thresholds: TN mods and DP mods. TN mods simulate the actual difficulty of the task (or increment task), whereas DP mods simulate stuff that affects the character and his chances - at least that's the idea.

With this I want to bring back shadowrun3s power/damage code system again: Weapon power determines the TN for damage resistance, but the damage code determines the initial damage before being staged up or down. This system is excellent for representing firearms.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: veekie on November 10, 2011, 12:28:06 AM
Quote
You start off rolling one die for a random outcome. You can add more dice; other people can add additional dice. Once all dice are rolled, each person who added a die beyond the first removes that many dice of their choice. You are left with one die, which is the result.
Seems most useful for a roll-light game, that is, you expect to roll just once per exchange, otherwise complexity shoots up.
Quote
For instance, you have Stat 3 + Skill 3, so you roll 6 blocks of 3d6 each vs a TN determined by the difficulty of the task (via table or opposed roll). Each block that makes or exceeds the TN is a hit. Compare hits to threshold or opposing hits to determine the outcome, as usually for a DP system.
Somewhat like oWoD? I think theres a big clunk factor there though. You're rolling a total of 18 dice on an average roll(3 is pretty average is most stat+skill), with 54 number additions, a third of which would be a teen number added to a single digit number, then capping it off with 6 comparisons. An optimized roll would be working with 5+5 for 30 dice, 90 additions, and 10 comparisons.

Dicepool + target number adjustment works better if your dicepool is for single dice, not groups of dice. And they're already fairly clunky to start with
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: brainpiercing on November 10, 2011, 09:01:58 AM
Somewhat like oWoD? I think theres a big clunk factor there though. You're rolling a total of 18 dice on an average roll(3 is pretty average is most stat+skill), with 54 number additions, a third of which would be a teen number added to a single digit number, then capping it off with 6 comparisons. An optimized roll would be working with 5+5 for 30 dice, 90 additions, and 10 comparisons.

Dicepool + target number adjustment works better if your dicepool is for single dice, not groups of dice. And they're already fairly clunky to start with
That's why I said it's rather useless for rolling physical dice, in fact I'm very much suggesting to use a roller script or program. I think even P&P games have to move with the time, and there is nothing wrong with rolling electronically at the table, too.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: veekie on November 10, 2011, 09:05:30 AM
Then unless its a custom or advanced roller, its still 6-10 comparisons per roll though.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: brainpiercing on November 10, 2011, 11:16:56 AM
Then unless its a custom or advanced roller, its still 6-10 comparisons per roll though.
You roll the sum of 3d6 a few times, compare to TN. So yes, the larger the DP, the more comparisons, obviously. However, you could easily just input TN as well and have the roller compare and simply output the number of successes. This is a practical problem, that is largely identical to any dice pool mechanic.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bard on November 10, 2011, 07:58:21 PM
That's why I said it's rather useless for rolling physical dice, in fact I'm very much suggesting to use a roller script or program. I think even P&P games have to move with the time, and there is nothing wrong with rolling electronically at the table, too.

If we were to go down that route, it would make no sense to use dice at all, or simple stats or anyting, you could just use way more math to achieve the result you want for your "random aspect" of the game and then make an app for that.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: brainpiercing on November 11, 2011, 06:59:50 AM


If we were to go down that route, it would make no sense to use dice at all, or simple stats or anyting, you could just use way more math to achieve the result you want for your "random aspect" of the game and then make an app for that.
That's true, but then using a randomizer like that serves my purposes. I could use any other randomizer, too,  but IMHO 3d6 is a sweet spot. The more dice you have the more average your rolls generally become. 2d6 is still a bit too flat, 3d6 is nice. And it also gives a convenient range for modifiers.

Also, sticking to conventional stats will retain a transparency with other games, and keep the game accessible, IMHO.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: professorgear on November 15, 2011, 12:24:39 AM
I'm really surprised at how many people support the Fate/Fudge die system as seen in DFRPG (Dresden Files RPG). In my group of eight or so people, none of us like the die system, and we're familiar with most of the systems out there. It adds more complexity to a single dice system, and for what benefit? With aspects and fate points, you can almost always "pay" to have a higher result than you roll. Additionally, you can roll into the negatives, effectively undoing the skills of you character. Finally, the average of the die roll is a 0, so as a rule your die roll has no effect. And this is when you're attempting against defenses that are relatively high and so on.

That being said, I came on this board hoping someone could resurrect the otherwise very fun DFRPG by changing out its die system. The Fate system with aspects as someone put it makes role-playing a mechanic of the game and is very effective and fun.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: professorgear on November 15, 2011, 12:26:48 AM
I've never played D20 epic. Has anyone noticed a problem with how rolling complicates/weakens at higher levels?
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bozwevial on November 15, 2011, 01:08:26 AM
I'm really surprised at how many people support the Fate/Fudge die system as seen in DFRPG (Dresden Files RPG). In my group of eight or so people, none of us like the die system, and we're familiar with most of the systems out there. It adds more complexity to a single dice system, and for what benefit? With aspects and fate points, you can almost always "pay" to have a higher result than you roll. Additionally, you can roll into the negatives, effectively undoing the skills of you character. Finally, the average of the die roll is a 0, so as a rule your die roll has no effect. And this is when you're attempting against defenses that are relatively high and so on.
It's a bell curve system. Getting a +4 on the fudge dice is a really impressive thing and statistically shouldn't happen that often, given how big the difference is between a Mediocre (+0) and a Great (+4) result is. The distribution means that most of the time, you can expect to succeed on a task with a difficulty equal to your skill, you're likely to need to spend a fate point on one with a difficulty one higher, and you'll almost certainly need one for a difficulty of two higher. That makes it easier for the GM to assign difficulties to tasks without worrying that the RNG will vary wildly like it does in a d20 system, where you're as likely to perform at an average level as you are to make a superhuman effort, and as likely as you are to make a half-assed attempt.

Negative die results might seem odd, but they're actually the same thing as making the curve go from 0 to 8 and bumping up the difficulty by 4 points. The curve is just centered around zero here because that plays more nicely with the math and looks better on paper. Besides, people can and do perform worse than their potential in real life because of all kinds of crazy circumstances. Automatic success is covered when your skill is 4 points higher than the difficulty (which is pretty incredible) or you burn fate points to add to your roll, which is fine because automatic success should be reserved for mundane situations (which don't normally merit a check because they are boring) or simple tasks performed under stress by professionals (which are rarer).

Having the average be zero, again, is helpful because it gives the GM a good idea of what his target numbers should be. It also reduces randomness, which tends to favor the players. As for high defenses, you can get around those by playing with maneuvers and temporary aspects, or in the case of certain supernatural monsters, satisfying the Catch.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: veekie on November 15, 2011, 02:10:00 AM
For high defenses, take any mage and dump as many Declarations and Assessments for free tags to your disicipline roll. Watch.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: brainpiercing on November 15, 2011, 05:33:41 AM
I've never played D20 epic. Has anyone noticed a problem with how rolling complicates/weakens at higher levels?
In Epic bonuses go COMPLETELY off the RNG, which basically means you want to get them so high you don't even need to roll in every case. GMing becomes really quite impossible, because you either make defenses that always succeed, or never succeed (for a given character), and offense likewise. There is only a very narrow gap where the RNG still works, and it's impossible to fit that in for the entire party.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bard on November 16, 2011, 11:49:42 AM
I've never played D20 epic. Has anyone noticed a problem with how rolling complicates/weakens at higher levels?
In Epic bonuses go COMPLETELY off the RNG, which basically means you want to get them so high you don't even need to roll in every case. GMing becomes really quite impossible, because you either make defenses that always succeed, or never succeed (for a given character), and offense likewise. There is only a very narrow gap where the RNG still works, and it's impossible to fit that in for the entire party.

It really depends on HOW FAR into epic you go. For the first 4-5 levels it's not THAT different from level 19-20.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: brainpiercing on November 16, 2011, 12:33:13 PM
I've never played D20 epic. Has anyone noticed a problem with how rolling complicates/weakens at higher levels?
In Epic bonuses go COMPLETELY off the RNG, which basically means you want to get them so high you don't even need to roll in every case. GMing becomes really quite impossible, because you either make defenses that always succeed, or never succeed (for a given character), and offense likewise. There is only a very narrow gap where the RNG still works, and it's impossible to fit that in for the entire party.

It really depends on HOW FAR into epic you go. For the first 4-5 levels it's not THAT different from level 19-20.
Yeh, but enter epic spells, which can happen as early as lvl 21, and you're screwed. Granted, you can choose NOT to break the game for a while. It took our now defunct epic group into level 40 to actually seriously break it. As it was in the end, basically the only way to play was stacking enough respawns, automatic resurrectsions, you name it on top of each other while being basically immune to everything except straight damage.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Shining Phoenix on November 16, 2011, 02:45:39 PM
Yeh, but enter epic spells, which can happen as early as lvl 21, and you're screwed. Granted, you can choose NOT to break the game for a while. It took our now defunct epic group into level 40 to actually seriously break it. As it was in the end, basically the only way to play was stacking enough respawns, automatic resurrectsions, you name it on top of each other while being basically immune to everything except straight damage.
Why not find some way to make yourself immune to damage too?
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: RedWarlock on November 21, 2011, 08:33:52 AM
I'm gonna chime in that I've always like d20, but the nWoD system is pretty good for its purposes too. Exploding dice are just such a fun mechanic to add in. I've been looking at the Dresden Files RPG, and while I really like the concepts behind the Fate points and everything, the Fudge dice haven't really clicked with me yet. I'll have to go re-read the rules.

I'm writing my own system that sits somewhere between d20 Modern and nWoD in mechanics. For my main dice roll I use 3d6 with exploding 6's, on a dice+mods=result system.

Really enjoying the number averages I get, and it helps offset some of the wild differences between high and low bonuses (like for skills), especially since I'm using an uncapped XP-based free-progression system. I also don't have a crit-fail or a crit-hit mechanic, instead the amount the attack roll exceeds the defense number is rolled into the damage, and skills include above-DC exceptional results.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bloody Initiate on December 15, 2011, 09:12:20 PM
For just "favorite" I'd probably go with Shadowrun's fistfuls of d6s. It's the most consistent result you can get (Increasing the dice pool size just does that).

For simplicity + efficiency I don't think you can beat a d20. You have enough numbers that it's not TOO simple and the human brain can easily keep track of it.

I actually think I hate WoD darkness's dice systems, because at least the ones I'm used to are d10s  (Which are just clumsy compared to d6s). Basically it's like Shadowrun's system only worse in every way. You roll fewer dice, and your chance of success on each die is lower, so it's less consistent and generally still very much about luck.

I generally don't like d100 systems. They tend to feel pretty random, and you also can often look at them and KNOW that a d20 would have been simpler and just as good in almost every aspect. Developers don't use every number on the d100, they tend to use every 5 (I'll spoil the surprise, that's 20 possibilities). When they DO use every number on the d100, it's too much and slows the game to a halt while people look at charts trying to figure out what happened.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: veekie on December 16, 2011, 12:00:12 AM
One thing about the d10 dicepool system is that it would be so much better as a dicepool if only they just used d6s instead. Greater dice availability, faster reckoning, and better stability while still being dicepools.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Noliar on December 16, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Seconding the ORE dice pool looking for matches - very elegant.

I also like the Mutants and Masterminds damage save mechanic.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: Bozwevial on November 20, 2012, 02:46:20 PM
I think your minion's slipping, phaedrus.
Title: Re: What's your favourite "dice based resolution mechanic"?
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 20, 2012, 02:46:54 PM
I think your minion's slipping, phaedrus.
Good boy. Gave him a +1.