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Messages - Sobolev

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1
Handbooks / Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal
« on: June 02, 2015, 06:02:19 PM »
Epic Binders:
In the last Dragon Magazine of 3.5, #363 were the rules for Epic Binders.  I'm not going to actually go over "tips" for the Epic Vestiges.  Their power level is so high it's almost impossible to recommend things, and it's almost impossible to mess them up.  I'm just posting the article because it's so hard to find now.  If anyone has a objection (in particular the author) please PLEASE just tell me.  It's reproduced in its entirety on the Wizards boards as well and the article isn't actually up anymore. 

Epic Binders by Eytan Bernstein
04/07/2008
Dragon Features Archive
(click to show/hide)

2
Handbooks / Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal
« on: June 02, 2015, 12:06:38 AM »
FAQ:

Should I take Improved Binding at 1st level?
This is the first thing you should ask yourself while playing a Binder.  If you're going to select another feat on the list of bonus feats before level 11 (such as Ignore Special Requirements, Expel Vestige or Favored Vestige being the three most likely), then you should pick up Improved Binding at level 1 and then select the other feat with your level 4 Binder bonus feat.  The power level difference between having it and not is substantial. 

If you choose to not take Improved Binding at level 1 and take it as your level 4 bonus feat instead then I'm going to recommend you start the game using Aym or Leraje.  Taking the feat later is probably a stronger long-term plan, even though your first few Vestiges are weak.  With Aym the improved armor will keep you alive, and sundering weapons is a reasonable plan if you fight a lot of humanoids.  Anyone who has a magical weapon that you shouldn't sunder will likely be obvious at low levels.  It's unlikely any humanoids that you fight will have the ability to attack you unarmed.  Additionally, your fire aura will actually do relevant damage at this level.  With Leraje you can buy a cheap bow and use it from afar being just as effective as the party archer (since he burned his feats on Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot).  You're actually getting a little boost in damage from your Ricochet.  This too won't hold up long but long enough to get you through levels one and two.  At level 3 you can switch to Malphas and for the next few levels it will be substantial power boosts each level. 

The downside of this second approach is that you won't have Ignore Special Requirements until level 11 (rather than taking it as your level 4 bonus feat) which will still fill its primary purpose of allowing you to bind vestiges that don't like each other together (you first get the ability to have two vestiges at level 8) but you'll need to RP a few things and go without Ahazu.  This is hardly crippling, but means you will be even more reliant on Paimon, Malphas, and Focalor.  In general, I would recommend this plan of action if you can stand it.

What do I do between EBL 5 and EBL 7?
This is where I'm going to lose some people, in these EBL.  You're no longer keeping up with the fighters just fine (you just lost your second BAB), and you don't do that much damage.  You'll need to struggle along with Paimon, Malphas and Focalor.  If you're using Focalor, be careful not to be debuffing your allies as well.  If you're using Paimon you'll likely want to be tripping people, or using Knock-down.  This is obviously much better if there is feat retraining or you have access to Psychic Reformation as you won't want these feats later.  With Malphas, you'll be doing a bit of damage with Sudden Strike, but you'll want to be the party sneak (so not so good when surrounded by rogues.  Hang in there, you're about to have Tenebrous, all the crafting feats, and infinite out of combat healing.

How do I make an effective Binder?
The easiest way to explain this is actually to give an example.  Imagine two level 7 Binders, the level before getting two Vestiges.  One is using Leraje, and used a bunch of feats on Archery-type things.  This is 2 BAB behind a similar fighter, has half as many feats, and has basically no other class features to make up for it.  Also less HP, less proficiencies and debatably less strength/dexterity (if this Binder has a decent Charisma score). The other Binder is either providing infinite out of combat healing with Tenebrous + Sacred Healing or Andras + Shield of Mercy.  The Tenebrous Binder has an army of undead, and is setting himself up for some serious caster shenanigans.  The Andras build has less attacks than the Leraje vestige, but didn't trade all of his class features for one fighter feat, has used none of his feats to be effective, and has Improved Critical and Smite.  The Leraje build is a dead end (and worse than the same character being a fighter). The others are actually going somewhere.  Make sure your character is going somewhere!

How does Tenebrous' Turn Undead ability work?
I have heard many different interpretations of this ability, I will present as many as I can think of along with how reasonable I think the interpretation is.  Decide with your DM how it functions so you can plan ahead.
  • Option 1: Tenebrous gives you the ability to Turn Undead as a Cleric of your Binder level; therefore you can use the Turn Undead ability every 5 rounds AND you can use this ability the same number of times a Cleric can (3+Charisma).  Note, Paladins use similar language in that they turn as a Cleric three levels lower and still have a stated uses whereas Binders do not and by default do not have a daily limit on their abilities. The most compelling "evidence" for this interpretation is on pg159 of the Player's Handbook, and is listed under Times per Day under Turning Checks and states that this action can be performed 3+charisma times per day. It's unclear if this is truly a rule, or just a reminder (since all the classes in the Player's Handbook turn 3 + charisma times per day).  Of note, this reading definitely allows you to use divine feats and benefit from effects that increase uses per day as you are argued to have 3 plus Charisma bonus uses per day. In cases where you can trivialize the cap (by way of limitless Nightsticks or bonus feats for Extra Turning) this reading is as strong as option 3. Debatable, but since it separates the concept of "uses" from the actual using of the ability you probably can (read: your DM will not allow you to but that's a nerf, not the rules) spend all of your uses at once, or in whatever amounts you want since you aren't actually USING the ability, just spending your daily uses. If that's the case it becomes the strongest option here.
  • Option 2: Tenebrous gives you the Turn Undead action, but no actual uses.  This means you can Turn Undead to gain control of them or rebuke them, but can't feed Divine Feats.  I think this is actually a reasonable reading of the ability, but it's also pretty lame.  To be honest, the Divine feats (Divine Metamagic exempt) are a little on the weak side so this removes a way for them to actually see play.  This option is extremely disappointing in a campaign where the party won't let you control undead (because that's evil).
  • Option 3: Tenebrous gives you a use of the Turn Undead ability, and once you use it you regain it 5 rounds later.  This is both good, and compelling (as it opens a bunch of Divine Feats).  It reduces the cost of Divine Metamagic every five rounds (but doesn't just pay for them outright since you can't use them all at once).  It lets you use Devotion feats too.  This is how I read the ability, and it opens a lot of options even in a party that won't let you control undead.

What is the best vestige?
Probably Zceryll, but after that it's not as clear.  There is a clear top tier, but some of them require a lot of synergy with other abilities (Tenebrous, Naberius); others (Halphax, Orthos) are good on their own without any support but have a lower ceiling.  There are DMs in this world that are convinced that any positive interaction between two unrelated abilities is against RAI which may alter the following.  Within a tier, vestiges are in no particular order; for the most part any of the tiers above Bottom Feeders are "reasonable" choices though I prefer the higher tiers as they feel more dynamic.
  • Top Tier: Naberius, Tenebrous, Orthos, Halphax, Chupoclops, Zceryll,
  • Solid Tier: Dahlver-Nar, Malphas, Ahazu, Focalor, Paimon, Andras, Astaroth (Cityscape), Dantalion, Otiax, Haures, Vanus, Eligor,
  • Filler Tier: Amon, Savnok, Andromalius, Karsus, Astaroth (Dragon Magazine), Kas, Acerak, Balam, Geryon, Desharis, Ipos, Zagan, Anistif, Ashardalon
  • Bottom Feeders: Aym, Leraje, Ronove, Haagenti, Primus, Agares, Arete, Buer, Cabiri, Eurynome, Shax, The Triad, Marchosias, Abysm

Do Vestige abilities allow you to qualify for feats/prestige classes/etc?
Who knows.  There's a quote floating around from the old wizard boards, but no one can actually find the original post, that says "they weren't intended to."  Note the quote came from CustServ which was inconsistent and often wrong; it also doesn't actually say anything about any rules.  The D&D FAQ makes reference to items qualifying characters for feats and losing access to them if the character no longer qualifies (such as by losing or replacing the item).  Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane make reference to qualifying for Prestige Classes, and then losing the special abilities of a class if a character no longer qualifies (specifically mentioning level loss or replacing items).  My personal opinion is that every feat selection that relies on the ability granted by a Vestige makes you less versatile, so it's a reasonable trade-off that you lose the feat whenever you don't qualify, but that you can select feats.  If Vestiges don't count, Binders basically don't have class features to qualify for feats, which is a pretty unnecessary nerf to a mid tier class.  Meanwhile, Wizards are casting Permanency to qualify for tons of things!  Talk to your DM, but honestly if they say you can't take feats, just pick another class.

What can I do with a Psionic Vestige?
I've rated all three Psionic Vestiges very poorly.  In general, as written they are extremely weak.  By the time you get Abysm, to summon an Astral Construct at its maximum potential costs 15 of your 21 power points.  However, with some work Psionics can do a lot of work for you.  I've listed some tricks here, rather than listing them in three separate places since these don't require specific Vestiges.  Note, many of these tricks can be gained in other ways, by simply playing a psionic race or the like.  It's probably more effective too, and heck if you overcommit to this you are going to be a really crappy Psion.  Additionally, a lot of them would require DM approval since the DM would need to approve that you qualify.  Some of these can be skipped by playing a psionic race and then just using additional points/powers from the Vestige, but others cannot.  Overall, this is here for completeness, not because it's good.
(click to show/hide)

Wait, Psicrystals get Feats?
Yes.  Unlike familiars (which retain the HD of the base creature, but use 1/2 your HP as their HP), psicrystals have HD equal to your HD.  Since they have HD (like animal companions), and have an Int score (like animal companions), they have feats.  A lot of people picture them as familiars, so they're surprised to learn this (though familiars too have feats; they have whatever feats the base animal has but never gain more).  Literally, the only support for the fact that they don't have feats is the "-" listed under advancement on pg207 in the Psicrystal entry.  My suspicion for this is because psicrystals (generally) don't advance on their own. Note that on the same page that psicrystal has a feat (Alertness) and that its characteristics "depend on its master".  This has been argued to death.  Psicrystals have feats.

Alright, alright, I believe you! Did I hear that James Jacobs wrote a Vestige?
He did, named The Green Lady (name drop for Ctrl + F). I didn't include it because it's homebrew, and feels a bit OP to me.  It has the abilities of a Level 3 Vestige, a Level 4 Vestige, more abilities, and it's Level 2 (you can start the game with it).  Early game, Color Spray is overwhelming, and late game it's never worse than a Nerveskitter in every encounter.  It has all the synergy that Tenebrous has, and the Prestige Class he made swaps BAB and Saves for an additional Caster Level/Vestige Level bump.  Caster levels are the most important thing in the game, so I'm not sure that's a fair trade (on top of the fact that there is a Divine Spell to fix your BAB).  Here it is, but only because you ask.  I recommend that it not be used.
(click to show/hide)

Can you bind the same vestige more than once?
The rules don't say that you can't! That being said, the rules DO set up a binary situation in my eyes. You gain powers when you are bound to a Vestige (On) and you don't have those powers when you are not bound to that Vestige (Off).  Even if the DM lets you bind the same Vestige multiple times, it doesn't actually seem like there's any benefit to do so. I believe it was at one point ruled by CustServ that you could not, but even when it wasn't I don't see how it actually DID anything.

What are the Binding DCs for the Epic Vestiges?
According to the author:
  • Gaia 39
  • Zuriel 43
  • Amun-her Khepeshef 47
  • Tkhaluuljin 49

3
The fact that Synthesist, which is plainly inferior to a normal Summoner (half the action economy), is the version of the class that the staff finds the most overpowered is really all you need to know about how paizo views game balance.

+1, also +1 to Paragon Surge, +1 to Samsaran's having Past Life, +1 to Wizards being just as amazing, heck, if it's a low level game Fey Sorcerers get +2 Save DC for NO REASON.

The game is not any more "balanced", there's just less variety in how many DIFFERENT ways you can break the game. The game is still totally broken.

The fact that they had to make a book, that fixed a bunch of classes, after they had plenty of time to do it right in the first place shows they have no clue what they are doing.

4
Handbooks / Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal
« on: May 17, 2015, 07:39:51 PM »
Binder in the Trenches:

The following post is 100% the work of jameswilliamogle and I have left it completely intact, typos and all.  I think it illustrates a possible Binder experience for the reader.

Quote from: jameswilliamogle

Real Game Experiences from a Binder Player
by jameswilliamogle

Here’s the rundown of how my Binder is working out in the Savage Tides adventure Path, modified for Eberron (I believe its normally LG).  For those who don’t know, this is a heavily-aquatic themed series with a diverse array of opportunities and adventure (though there is also a strong central theme as well).  I’m enjoying the campaign quite a bit.  There probably will be some spoiling, but I will try to focus on the mechanical aspects of how things are working out.  So far, I’m following my own advice above, Low-Level Binder Advancement, pretty closely.

The DM was encouraging non-standard classes, and hasn’t really restricted anything yet.  The other players are: a Beguiler, a Spellthief, a Psion, a Cleric/Psion (more Psion, now), a Warforged Fighter, and an Elven Blaster Wizard (taking UA options, he’s focusing on fire).  The DM has given “Rule 0” power to the players as well as keeping it himself: if a clear majority think a feat, spell, power, etc. is too strong, then its restricted (Shock Trooper and Leap Attack have both been restricted already, for example).

I went with Human.  I rolled ridiculously high for stats (4d6, drop the lowest):
Str 15, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 17
Since we started at 1st, I took Improved Binding and Expel Vestige (I wasn’t sure if Expel Vestige was really necessary, but I’m very glad I took it).  The DM allowed swapping of 2 class skills: I swapped Gather Info and Kn: Planes for Hide and Move Silently (UMD would've been better, but oh well).  For my bonus languages, I took Giant (for Haagenti) and Aquan (since I knew it was an aquatic themed campaign).

1st level:  I started bound to Naberius, but quickly switched to Malphus as we were sent on a search-and-rescue type mission.  Malphus’s Bird’s-Eye-Viewing, coupled with a sunstick that the bird carried, ensured that the party wasn’t surprised at all.  Sudden Strike only came into play when I attacked a grappling enemy (mostly undead).  With Studded Leather and a Heavy Shield, I had an 18 AC, which was enough to keep most attacks off of me.  I downed quite a few enemies w/ my Morningstar, which was quite rewarding.  I tried to expel Malphus, but failed.  After resting, I felt that we could use some more melee-oriented characters, and I bound Aym.  Unbeknownst to us, we cleared all the enemies away already, and Aym actually was a bad choice: I made a bad pact, and since we had a ton of coinage, and also had to swim to get it ashore, I chose to role-play it out, and refused to leave any coins behind.  We got a bunch of coinage, a few wands, and an Earth Elemental Gem that saved are butts.

2nd level:  In between sessions, I used Naberius a lot, and disguised myself as a local nobleman.  I bought a bunch of stuff on credit, and then dumped it on a fence, making some money that way.  Once the session started, I bound Dahlver-Nar, and bought a MW Buckler, but didn’t have enough cash for a MW Chain Shirt (almost all our loot is tied up in magic items, which really sucks, as the Wizard is holding it all, and we’re overdue for some upgrades).  I was putting Pact Augmentation to HP.  Binding DN, I found, makes your first 1-2 rounds of combat almost completely defensive: you have Shield Self on one of your allies (preferably the Cleric), then target an enemy as you stand near the front, and hope they don’t kill you.  Although this reduces your damage output, it really, really helps your HP totals (DR / 50% is awesome).  The damage the enemy takes isn’t anything that you really can rely on: its almost strictly a defensive vestige.  At AC 19, DN allowed a lot of tanking.  I went below 0 once, and only for a few rounds (remember: Shield Self only goes away when the target dies, so I still had it active on the unconscious BBEG’s, which saved me from certain death).  After working over some more bad guys, we fought a poorly defended humanoid.  It almost assuredly is a recurring villain, as it drank a Gaseous Form potion after HP’s ran really low.  Only the unconscious WF Fighter actually had magical weapons (from feats), and it was getting away.  It took me a round to realize it, but then I targeted her with Shield Self, and following it, had the Spellthief and the Cleric follow me, backstabbing and healing me as we whittled down her HP until it stopped moving.  This was a LOT of fun, and we got some fat loot from defeating it at this time (a 5 charge wand of animate dead, for example, and a +1 Rapier that came in VERY handy).  The next day in the city, we had several random encounters, including some raptors (eating people).  I (stupidly) forgot how strong Raptors were, and charged one that I could flank.  Full attacks suck…  Anyways, I was still conscious, but very hurt (<5 HP).  I used the Maddening Moan ability of DN to make all the enemies Dazed (dinosaurs are known for lots of things: Will save isn’t one of them); all 3 Dinos that were on me failed the Will save, as well as the Spellthief and Fighter, who happened to be in range, and I moved 30’ without taking any AoO’s (the MM ability seems to be strictly for getting out of melee when things go bad).  The cleric healed me a bit w/ a happy stick, and I targeted a Dino attacking our flank w/ Shield Self, and went in after the Spellthief engaged it.  The Wizard busted open the Earth Elemental, and that finished combat rapidly.  He also animated the raptors w/ the wand, right afterwards (much to the annoyance of the DM :D).

3rd level:  I took Improved Initiative, still not knowing where to focus my Binder (as I have to leave the campaign in May, I’m not sure how many levels I’ll reach, and trying to take immediate benefit feats instead).  I also started binding Paimon, and put Pact Augmentation into Initiative, for a +11 Initiative modifier.  That +1 Magic Rapier put my attack bonus at +8, and damage at a paultry d6+3.  AC became a 20, thanks to MW Chain Shirt and Dex bump from Paimon.  Combat against mobs was very smooth for the most part: winning initiative means you get to Dance of Death round 1 before the enemy attacks, almost every time, and +8 to hit gives you some pretty good odds (better than the straight fighter, in this campaign).  After that, they tend to surround you, but your good AC keeps things from hitting you most of the time, and giving you a great opportunity to use Whirlwind Attack on the following round.  Against tough opponents, I found that using Dance of Death like Spring Attack (using the tumbling bonus from Paimon) kept me from taking too much damage, and the skeleton raptors were wicked-good at this level.  I got taken down by a Raptor-thing, and actually hit -9 HP before my party killed him.  We had almost spent our Happy Stick, and was only at 13 HP, so I used Expel Vestige (successfully) and then bound Focolor, suppressing the Aura of Sadness, and putting Pact Aug into HP.  We had a few more encounters, but they were pretty easy: I stayed behind whoever was tanking, and zapped the badguys like a bug.  Net result: Paimon is great for mobs of weaklings, but don’t expect to have a huge impact against the tougher BBEG’s, but you can make a difference in every combat with Focolor.  Along the way, I took some ability damage, so bound Naberius while we returned home.  We got a fight starting next session, and haven't had a chance to level yet (since we haven't rested).

The next session we encountered a couple of thugs, that tried to pick a fight.  We beat them easily, and I used Naberius (taking 10 on diplomacy) to convince the city guards that it was their fault with a 22 check ("These aren't the droids you're looking for").  We then encountered 6 low-level Rogues and a BBEG leading them in the city; they surprised us getting sneak attack on the warforged with alchemist fire, dropping him immediately.  Then the BBEG went around the side of a building out of sight, and the Beguiler cast Obscurring Mist, to prevent more SA.  I went around the opposite side of the building (had only 17 HP at this point, about 70%), and used Disguise Self as a standard action to make myself look like the BBEG (they were familiar w/ her, granting them +6 to spot it, but I had a +13 mod: +10 for Disguise Self, +3 Cha, +2 Bluff, -2 different sex); I then went around and told them that the person they were with was a Changeling, and they needed to attack it now (they believed me, but instead of attacking the other one, just were confused).  This gave the Wizard enough time to repair the Warforged, and the Beguiler managed to charm the BBEG, and the others got into position.  We then wiped out the group, but not until the Wizard got into negative HP territory. 

We then got immediately into ANOTHER battle, but started in it by trying to use Diplomacy.  By this time, I was at 1 HP, so I disguised myself as a peasant.  The tank, beguiler, and spellthief went up a few floors into a building, trying to talk someone into letting someone else go [trying not to spoil the adventure].  When we went into initiative, I went around the building, disguising myself as one of the minor bad guys.  I then went into the building, without anyone taking AoO's against me, until I got to the top floor where half the party was (the other half fighting on the first floor).  I bluffed and said the badguys needed to go downstairs to rescue one of the evil-coworkers (on the second floor, the Wizard had commanded two raptor skeletons to guard the stairs, after I had gone up).  Half of them went down (all the minor bad guys) got flayed alive.  The tougher badguys dropped a Tank, Cleric, Beguiler, and Gnome w/in a round (I drank a CLW potion then).  I walked down the stairs, disguised myself as the same badguy that I had pretended was downstairs, and walked into the room where the evil do-ers were tieing up my party.  I told them that I had escaped, and needed help defeating the rest of the ones downstairs, again taking 10 and getting a 20 bluff check.  They went downstairs, as I said "I need to heal myself", drank another potion of CLW, then went into the room.  I poured the last CLW on the beguiler, as the evil do-ers were working on the raptors.  The beguiler in turn repaired the warforged.  I jumped out of the window with the Gnome Spellthief, and landed prone, but only took 8 damage or so.  The party downstairs were all < 0 HP.  The party upstairs was running low.  Anyways, it was a VERY harrowing fight, but I was dropped at that point w/ non-lethal damage.  We won, but one of the bad guys was convinced to leave (Charm Person from the Beguiler, natural 1 on the save), and every party member, all the undead we had made, all of the consumable healing resources all got used up, only the Beguiler surviving at 4 HP.

If I hadn't had Naberius bound, we all would've died (or at least been captured), but the extra time that I was able to grant the party really, really helped out a lot.  The DM may have even been nerfing the NPC reactions, but just slowing them down was good enough for me.  Having Naberius bound you don't even need to try to optimize for a diplomonster build, and still be ridiculously good at it; what's really, really nice is the take 10 on the bluff check (in this campaign, you can even action point it after taking 10, for some ridiculous numbers, since its Eberron).

Level 4: We decided that retraining for non-power plays would be ok, so I retrained my Improved Binding feat to be in the 4th level bonus feat, and retrained the 1st level feat as Combat Expertise (planning on taking Deadly Defense at 6th).  I put the stat bump into Cha, for a 16 DC save vs. my vestige abilities that allow saves.  This is (more or less) where we ended on Sunday.  More to follow as the campaign continues.  Not much outside of standard skill checks occured through the rest of this level... I used Naberius a lot.  Don't really remember much else (and the bit I did remember would spoil some of the adventure, too).

Level 5: I started by binding Andras, but as we were going to do some more dungeon crawling, quickly switched back to Paimon.  Using Deadly Defense and fighting defensively, I had a +7 to hit w/ a +1 Rapier.  Using Dance of Death I managed to crit against 3 opponents... I ended up doing 79 damage in one round, getting initiative, and walked back to behind the (other) main tank (my AC was a 23 throughout this whole delve).  I nicknamed this "turning on the blender", and there were many jokes about my recharge meter filling up between uses, me charging up like dragonball, etc.  Afterwards, I  found out I was diseased, and I managed to expel vestige and bind Buer... ending that.

Levels 6 and 7: Just sucked; the Binder starts to fall behind straight casters and melee types at this point.  The Medium BAB really hurt the whole concept of a finesse fighter.  Our melee characters started failing Will saves, which really strained the Binder.  It became obvious that it wasn't strong enough in melee to continue melee'ing.  I was binding lots of different types of vestiges, too, most of which were mediocre.  Eurynome sucks, as does Agares (as I thought it would).  Buer proved ridiculously useful, but it still isn't a prime choice.  Paimon and Andras were still the strongest choices at this level.  7th level, having no new access at all, really felt dead: I almost delayed leveling to get more XP from the remaining encounters.

Level 8: Looking forward to combining Otiax's Air Blast w/ Combat Expertise and Sneak Attack :D.

Theory matches Play: The Binder can melee with the best of them, but then has tons of other options to fall back on.  I would NOT recomend this class for an inexperienced player, as the options can be a bit overwhelming, even with only one vestige to bind at a time.

5
Handbook Discussion / Re: Handbook Index Discussion Thread
« on: May 17, 2015, 09:47:38 AM »
The Consolidated Binder Handbook by jameswilliamogle was in the hatchet thread, but wasn't actually here.  So now it is.

Under Binder you have the "Trade Soul for Awesome" which I eventually just made the repost over on the old boards, and you have his original thread as well (if you want to keep that link for posterity, that's fine).  If you add the new one that is actually here rather than on BG you'll have three links that link to the same information.

I'm actually back to updating the Let's Make a Deal handbook, and it's coming along.  Not that it's been like 3 years or anything...


6
Handbooks / Re: Handbook Index
« on: May 17, 2015, 09:45:39 AM »
The Consolidated Binder Handbook by jameswilliamogle was in the hatchet thread, but wasn't actually here.  So now it is.

Under Binder you have the "Trade Soul for Awesome" which I eventually just made the repost over on the old boards, and you have his original thread as well (if you want to keep that link for posterity, that's fine).  If you add the new one that is actually here rather than on BG you'll have three links that link to the same information.

I'm actually back to updating the Let's Make a Deal handbook, and it's coming along.  Not that it's been like 3 years or anything...


7
Reports from the Trenches: Binder in Action
(click to show/hide)

8
Maximizing Save DCs
Straight from Gerdreg:
Quote from: Gerdreg
(Save DC = 10 + EBL/2 + Cha Bonus)

Generic
Cha bonus = +12 (18 base Cha + 5 level bonus + 6 enhancement bonus item + 5 inherent bonus tome)
EBL = +10 (level 20/2)
Soul Lens (+1), 12k gp
Veil of Allure (+2), 14k gp

Vestige/ Ability Specific
Ipos's Influence + Favored Vestige (+2 EBL/2)
Ability Focus (+2 to one ability)
Sudden Ability Focus (+2 once per day)
Favored Vestige Focus (+1 for one vestige's abilities)
Ipos's Influence (+1 when Ipos is bound)
Chupoclops's Aura of Despair (-2 to other's saves when Chupoclops is bound)
Focalor's Aura of Sadness (-2 to other's saves when Focalor is bound)
Assassin's Dagger (+1 with Death Attack)



Handy CustServ quotes
Vestige granted feats and abilities weren’t intended to qualify one for prestige classes or other feats: LINK BROKEN
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11326619&postcount=181

The save DC for the psionic Vestiges is ½ BL + Cha: LINK BROKEN
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11231204&postcount=162

Marchosias’s Death Attack requires Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike from some other source, and this was as intended: LINK BROKEN
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11278319&postcount=172

Binders can't bind multiple copies of the same vestige,
Ipos's Planar Attunement clarified, and,
Binders can revert back and forth between the Outsider type and their original type (hello, Alter Shape abuse... bring on Karsus!):
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11427332&postcount=16

It is ENTIRELY up to your DM on whether Power Attack can be used with Otiax's Air Blast ability: LINK BROKEN
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10606961&postcount=133

Nobody knows how the Item Creation ability of Astaroth is supposed to work; talk w/ your DM:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11769670&postcount=65

Paimon's Dance of Death, although intended to work only on melee, works equally well w/ ranged RAW:
Answer

Zceryll's Summon Alien ability was supposed to mimic the Summon Monster spell in all ways except for the ability to get multiple lower-level creatures (not a Cust-Serv answer, but from the designer himself):
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13128772&postcount=121

9
Tips and Tricks

Old Advice (from previous handbooks)

- Buer's small granted heal is useable an unlimited number of times per day. This means that a binder can heal the party back to full during dowtime without wasting any of the primary healer's valuable resources.

- If you suffer a large amount of ability damage or drain and cannot rest, you can use Expel Vestige and then bind Naberius to heal.

- Combined with the Negotiator bonus feat and a Binder's natural emphasis on Charisma, Naberius can make a character an formidable diplomat.

- Savnok's Move Ally ability can be used to bypass some terrain obstacles (which may be even harder to overcome in full plate) by trading places with a more mobile ally such as a summoned raven or earth elemental (as long as they are visible). This could also be used to break a grapple or other confine.

- Balam's Cunning can be used to re-roll a Truespeak skill check every 5 rounds (or every 4 if you include Favored Vestige and Rapid Recovery).

- Paimon's Death of Death ability can be used to trigger Skirmish damage.

- Balam's and Geryon's gaze attacks can be combined for 4d6 continuous damage every round, and leave you free to perform other actions.

- Amon's and Orthos's Breath Weapons can be used to qualify for Metabreath feats (Maximized Breath Weapon plus Empowered Supernatural Ability anyone?).  This is debatable, RAW: see the first CustServ quote below.

- Naberius can be used to offset the ability damage caused by the Festering Anger (Book of Vile Darkness) disease.

- Naberius is also the main way the Hellfire Warlock overcomes the Con damage they take.

- A Deathshead can be created using the Create Undead spell and a Murder of Crows may be summoned using the Summon Swarm spell. Though this is not useful to a pure soul binder, an Anima Mage (or any other caster with those spells) can take advantage of this.


New Advice (not in the handbooks, but maybe in the threads)

- The Veil of Allure (Sandstorm) grants a +2 save DC to all charisma-based supernatural abilities.

- Ashardalon's Greed, along with a few ranks in Appraise and some magic items, could easily get you up to the Epic DC 50 needed to detect magic items.

- Ashardalon'g Fear effect actually lasts so long that by the time it no longer effects the enemy, you could've already used it two more times (15th level, the earliest you can bind him).

- The Triad gives +5 Diplomacy and +5 Sense Motive, as well as Bardic Knowledge, making it a great social / interaction vestige.

-  If you can get some ranks in UMD, or if you are using the Heterodoxy variant and started as a Cleric, you should bind Buer and use a Wand of Shield Other when available. You get fast healing, and can heal yourself in the back of the party w/

- Otiax's Air Blast ability works as a melee touch attack even up to 10' away; there's nothing in the rules that says you can't use Power Attack with this (it's like the Wraithstrike + Power Attack combo). 2d6+BAB is pretty good damage, imo. Go into it fully equiped w/ a shield.  Tenebrous can add 4d8 cold damage to the attack, and specifies you can use it for a full round (at least when it gets to 4d8).  Combine w/ Leap Attack + Shocktrooper, Chupoclops for pounce, and Andras for imp. crit in a 16 BAB build and you get 2d6+4d8+32 damage per hit (4d6+4d8+64 on a crit), and can still be 10' away from them. Shax's Sea Strike can add another 2d6 damage to one hit. Not bad if you just got MDJ'd in the World's Largest Dungeon.  Air Blast may or may not work w/ Power Attack: its a strict DM call (not even RAW or CustServ can answer the question, apprently).

- Arete some nice defense beyond having Buer bound: being able to heal oneself of 2d12 HP once per day (or more, w/ a crystal), having DR 5/-, and +4 to any save is really nice.

- Dahlver-Nar can be a great way to keep dead things dead at low level.  Gaseous Form is a particularly nasty way to keep recurring villains in a fight, for repeated encounters.  In fact, any creature with any kind of incorporealness or any kind of heavy DR should be targeted with the Shield Self ability.  Don't forget that you can deny yourself your Dex bonus anytime you want, and that a Sneak Attacking Rogue will do a ton of damage to you, if you so desire.

- Knights of the Sacred Seal become Outsiders at 5th level as a Su ability.  This goes away if you unbind your patron vestige.  If you have Karsus bound, its time to start using a wand of Alter Self, as you get access to a ton of really useful abilities in outsider form (how would you like +18 natural armor, for example?).

-  I was rereading Zagan's abilities, and I just got to say, wow. It is THE vestige to be facing high level humanoid parties. Grapple the wizard, then use Aversion against the melee types. Just hope they don't have an active Freedom of Movement going!

-  How about charming a monster you don't like and making it your ally with your half-elf bard diplomancer cohort (or some other way..) and send the monster to the Ethereal plane forever? This could be accomplished with "Animal Friend: [Eurynome] All animals automatically friendly with you" so you can dispose of animal monsters chasing you down (that dinosaur causing you trouble? ). Just found this, but it seems like you can use this "Command or Suggestion: [Naberius] Command within 30 ft or suggestion (if BL >= 14) . 1/ 5 rnds." to make a enemy your friend, command him to get naked (don't want to lose his loot after all) and then teleport to the Ethereal plane and switch places with him.

-  Speaking of Eurynome, the always friendly animals are a great way to increase your fighting power.  If you party w/ a Druid or Ranger, convince them to have a high Handle Animal, and you can train every animal you encounter.  How about a bunch of ally fleshrakers?

-  Army building can start at 6th: Tenebrous's Rebuke ability can get you undead.  6th level is important, as you can control Shadows.  Build your shadow army, just as all the necromancer-types.  Combine with Leadership, and you easily can have tons of minions.  How do you get a Shadow?  Pay a spellcaster to cast Summon Monster 5, have it kill a squirrel, and wait d4 rounds (have the summoned Shadow command the created one not to attack).  Then Rebuke.

-  A big problem of being a Binder is not knowing what you are going to face the next day.  Since knowing is half the battle, The Triad is winning it before it begins.  Use Call to Mind plus Bardic Knowledge plus Dantalion to get huge bonuses on knowledge checks.  Combining it with Naberius, and using the Con skills to get Knowledge: Local will turn you into a local kingpin immediately.  Oh, and let you find out what is happening the next day, who's planning what, etc.

- Binders can do the trapfinding role, but it isn't easy.  Karsus grants Detect Magic at will, which can reveal magical traps, and then can use the dispelling touch ability to try to dispel it.  Mechanical traps are still a problem, though: Able Learner, a starting level of Rogue / Scout / Ninja, and planning on maxing Search and Disable will work, and late levels Ashardolon adds your Binder level to Search checks (alternatively, Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra: Theft Gloves will get you trapfinding too, but it won't add the relevant skills).  Just stick with Karsus, and take the mechanical trap damage like a champ.

- Haures's Major Image does NOT require concentration to maintain: the effect is as the spell, but it automatically lasts Binder level rounds.  Make the Image of a house, or wall, in the middle of your battlefield, and control it as normal.  Nothing like a Tarasque jumping out of the ground to really scare the bejeezus out of your enemies, but what also works is to have the opposing party start dropping like flies... they won't know what the heck is going on.

- Tenebrous's Deeper Darkness effect, unlike every other form of concealment, doesn't have the critical words: "you cannot hide in it".  Thus, it allows you to get precision damage off much, much easier: its about the equivalent of Hide in Plain Sight.

10
Miscellaneous Combos

Old Combos (from previous handbooks)

Diplomonster:bravo:
1 [Naberius] + Exemplar + Marshal: You are able to preform diplomacy checks without penalty as as STANDARD ACTION and you can TAKE TEN!!! Diplomancers just got way more powerful. Add in other PrC dips as you desire, but as a full-binder you really only need to dip outside the binder class for two levels (one for exemplar and one for marshal). Only go for exemplar if your DM does not allow custom items to boost skills.

Assasination:f: :incog: :f:
8, 15 [Malphas] + [Andromelius] + [Marchosias]: Sneak attack + sudden strike both progressing off the same thing: your binder level. Never shalt thou see a more beautiful and simple combination. Many other binds also exist which add even more extra dice to your attacks.  edit: Marchosias adds a TON of stealth ability, and death attack.

10, 15 [Marchosias] + [Chupoclops] + [Focalor]: Another rogue-like combination with at twist: death attack. Use Chupoclops's ethereal watcher to gain your three rounds of observance and then strike with Marchosias's death attack for nasty effect. You'll also have aura of despair and sadness active giving your target a -4 on the death effect save! I also recommend taking ability focus (death attack). edit: accorrding to CustServ, you still need a source of Sneak Attack.

10, 15, 20 [Focalor or Ipos] + [Chupoclops] + [Haures] + Ability Focus (Phantasmal Killer) + Favored Vestige (Haures) + Favored Vestige Focus (Haures) + Rapid Recovery (Haures) + Improved Binding: Use incorporeal movement + tumble to avoid any enemies in your way and then deliver the death attack to end all death attacks to your enemy. Due to aura of sadness and despair he takes a -4 to his saves and your DC is increased by 3 from feats. Throw on a decent charisma (say 30) and 20 BL and we're looking at a death attack with a save of 33 (don't forget that the enemy must make his saves at a -4 penalty). If Ipos is used the DC increases by 2, but you lose aura of sadness. The net effect is the same, but Ipos also gives you rending and claws.


New Combos (not in the old Handbooks, but maybe are in the threads)

Diplomonster, Part 2:bravo:
10 [The Triad] + [Naberius] + maxed Diplomacy:  Will make for an auto-check of 28 at 10th, plus your Cha. Thats a nice number to work from when you don't have to invest any levels or feats into it. You also get +5 Sense Motive, Empathy, and Detect Hostile Intent, making it a decent high level social/interaction Vestige.  Add Naberius, and Naberius's Skills for Knowledge: Local, and you can become a kingpin, even during planar travel, buying and selling secrets for favors, money, or anything else you desire.

Trapfinding:detect:
15 [Ashardalon] + Able Learner + search as a class skill + Trapfinding (either through a Rogue level, Theft Gloves, or anything else): Become the Searching GOD. With a 1st level dip in Rogue, and the investment of 1 rank per level, when you get to bind Ashardalon, you'll have a +33 to search, w/ no magic items (which could boost it up to 70 or higher: +30 item, +2 MW item, +5 Magnifying Glass, +Int items). With magic items, you auto-find magical auras, too, hitting the Epic Search skill DC. edit: With such a ridiculous search modifier, you should consider adding the new Dungeonscape feat that allows an auto-search for many traps when you get w/in 5' of it.

Assasination:incog::f:
13, 15 [Andras] + [Marchosias] + [Malphus]: Sneak up on your enemies, staying hidden, then use the confound ability on them, whittling down their HP.  After 3 rounds, go ahead and attack one of the "softies" using the death attack, then use Malphus's Invisibility to sneak away, setting it up again.

8, 15, 20 [Acerak] + [Malphus] + [Chupoclops] + [Focolor]: Sneak up on your enemies, invisible, then hit the opponent with Paralyzing Touch, while they have the -4 to their saves.  They'll be paralyzed and helpless, allowing a Coup-de-Grace the following round.  This combo is much more friendly to random combat than the Marchosias combos, as you need not wait 3 rounds to activate the ability, and have pounce, bite attacks, and lightening strikes that all can be used while waiting to "recharge".

Scouting
10 [Chupoclops] + [Malphus]: Basically, you activate invisibility, then scout around. One round before invisibility becomes deactivated, you activate Ethereal Watcher and do nothing. After 5 rounds, you go invisible again (and return to the Material). Voila, you are invisible as long as you want!

11
Caster-Related Combos

Old Combos (from previous handbooks)

These are both splashes of binders w/ other classes; not true binders, necessarily.

Truespeach
8 EBL 8 + Improved Binding + [Balam] + any Truespeaking class: Re-roll a Truespeak skill check every 5 rounds (or every 4 if you include Favored Vestige and Rapid Recovery).

Metamagic Specialist:drool:
9 Anima Mage + Vestige Metamagic + Extend + Persistant + Improved Binder: You don't even need to try to abuse this one. Persistant magic available at 9th level, with minimal effort. Use the build: Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 5 for a quick and fully legal entry. By 10th level you can persist draconic polymorph. YEAH BABY!

Direct Damage:mage:
8, 15, 20 [Geryon] + [Balam] + [Fogolar] + [Amon]: It's almost guaranteed damage, one way or another - you've got 2 X 2d6 area effect gaze attacks which need not be activated, lightning strike every round for 3d6 + [(BL - 5) / 3] X d6, and a fiery blast for BL X d6 every 5 rounds. Balam's Cunning is useful in any build and Fogalor's Sadness is neat too, particularly since you'll want to be in the center of the enemy when you bind the gaze attack vestiges.  Switching out Cabiri w/ Geryon or Balam gives you a 3/day Fireball, and Divination as the spell every round, making for some nice caster-emulating ability, and the 1/2 Vile damage (although better on NPCs) combined with the Divination abilities lets you know if you are going to face an enemy Cleric anytime soon.

10 [Geryon] and/or [Balam's] + Shape Soulmeld (Necrocarnum Shroud): Necro Shroud gives +1 profane to hit and damage if anything gets damaged while adjacent to you for 1 round, and both gaze attacks give continuous damage. Great if you have essentia to increase the radius of the Necro Shroud. And guess what: the profane bonus to attack and damage applies to any attack, and you can focus your gaze (which does not deactivate the area effect damage RAW) to immediately get that bonus off without additional vestiges or attacks.


New Combos (not in the old Handbooks, but maybe are in the threads)

Item Creation:$$:
5+ [Astaroth] + [Karsus]: Now, you are capable of not only making almost every magic item in the game, but you also can use them as well.  Karsus not only grants you +2 to the save DC's, but also allows you to use items as a Wizard of your level.  Thus, if you make staffs when you get to 12th level, you start using your Binder level and your Int for the saves.  Sure, you still have to pay for someone to cast the spell, but its so worth it for most items.  Astaroth's +4 to all craft skills could be useful (make a Fabricate staff, then use Karsus to make poisons, etc).

Healing Battery
8, 15 [Ashardalon] + [Buer] + [Arete] + Expel Vestige or Vestige Phylactery: Ash gives an extra 2 temporary HP / level, which is a minimum of 30 when you get access. When you expel him, or force him out b/c of the phylactery, they go away, but rebinding will get you the extra HP again, reset to maximum. In the meantime, you have fast healing 3, DR 5/-, DR 10/cold iron, and other abilities relating to healing as well, making you a veritable troll. Combine w/ UMD and a wand of Shield Other and you just became a HP battery. (Arete is probably unessecary if you went KoSS 5 by this point.)

Knowledge / Divination-like:teach:
7, 10, 15, 20 [The Triad] + [Dantalion] + [Naberius] + [Desharis] + [Cabiri]: Bardic Knowledge equal to binder level, +8 on Knowledge checks (RAW, should stack, but talk to your DM), and +5 from Call to Mind, for a minimum of +23 on all Knowledge checks (you can't take 10 or 20, though).  Use Naberius's Skills to get Knowledge:Local for any place in existence, and Knowledge:Nobility&Royalty, to learn everything about that location (even planar cities! :lop:): Desharis gets you another +6 on Kn:Local, for a +29 modifier.  "Yes, I know the answer, even though I know not the question, nor have I ever been there."  Cabiri is a one-vestige Divination MACHINE: Divination, as the spell, every round.  Borderline Broken.

Battlefield Control
10, 15, 20 [Desharis] + [Zagan] + [Haures] + [Halphax]: Another battlefield control combo: grapple a "softie", use aversion on a "meatie", make walls and summon buildings to block pathways, make a major image every once and a while, and animate a ton of small, adamantine objects, just to trip and attack creatures, never letting your initially grappled guy go (unless you decide to use imprisonment on him, and decide to grapple someone else).  You also have DR 10 / adamantine, Mindblank, Incorporeal Movement, and the Infinite Doors ability for non-aversion defense, and a smite attack against most natural creatures, a limited Toungues ability, and Bardic Knowledge.   This combo pwns in a big fight. 

13, 15, 20 Zagan + Haures + Halphax + Ashardalon: First, lay down a field of illusory snakes all around your opponent, then use the Aversion power to make the opponent move as far away from the snakes as possible. Make giant circles of dead snakes around the opponent, and confine them to a 5' square! Add on Halphax and Ashardalon, and you are an awesome battlefield controller (use the Fear effect of Ash, the walls, Imprison, and Secure Shelter abilities of Halphax to block off whichever areas you want). You could also, instead of using Haures, just have the Wizard cast low-level summon monster spells for snakes (or, using Karsus, you use wands instead), or even just have snake corpses or zombie snakes (courtesy of Tenebrous's Rebuke undead). Don't forget you have Improved Grapple plus, to deal with any of the high-will squishy opponents.

15 [Halphax] + [Haures] + [Ashardalon]: A Binder's version of battlefield control. You have Fear as the spell every 5 rounds, Major Image every 5 rounds to screw w/ the opponents, a summonable Iron Wall, Imprisonment, and a summonable 20' square stone building to block holes in your defense. Tenebrous adds Deeper Darkness that you can make really, really big before even starting combat, and that doesn't affect you.

Maximizing Fear Effects / Battlefield Control :f::surrender
15, 20 [Ashardalon] + [Chupoclops] + [Fogalar] + [Eligor]. You start out charging w/ a full attack, and the following round use the Fear effect. They'll be at -4 to their save already, but even if they make they'll be at -6 to most of their stuff as long as they're around you. The other abilities from these vestiges are really good, as well, for combat and as a general debuff as well.  Stacking Fear's Shaken effect on a successful save w/ a maxed out Intimidate is a good idea.

Tactical Nuke
1 [Amon] + Dragonborn (Heart aspect) + metabreath feats: Many DMs don't allow players to select feats based on temporarily gained prerequisites. Being a Dragonborn allows you to pick up a natural breath weapon and qualify for the metabreath feats. My picks would be Shape Breath, Clinging Breath, Quicken Breath, and Maximize Breath (Heighten Breath, while good, is overkill, imo). Entangling Exhalation is nice to use on your Dragonborn Breath Weapon. A single level of Dragonfire Adept can grant your party immunity to your breath weapon (and give ANOTHER breath weapon). Combining with Anima Mage can get you some very nice breath weapon requiring spells. Also, RAW, the metabreath feats say that you add rounds until your next breath weapon attack, but it doesn't say WHICH breath weapon (add the rounds to your weakest breath weapon ).



12
Vestige Combination Synergies


I've decided to add a descriptor in front of each combo depending on what level it can be achieved, so the bolded numbers are the numbers that the particular combo can be achieved at.  An entry with more than one number indicates that the main combo can go off early, but fully blossoms at the later level(s).  Since there's no 2 vestige combos before 8th, there's very few before that: for low-levels, please check out "Low-level Binder Advancement" in the 2nd post.  Also, I've started adding descriptors for what each combo is, essentially, so you could search for battlefield control, for example, and get all those combos, etc.  I've moved a few combos around: assasination is under miscellaneous; several combos looked like non-combat caster related.


Combat

Old Combos (from previous handbooks)

Movement
2 [Savnok]+Summon Creature/Elemental/Undead: You summon a monster in a hard to get place and then use Savnok's move ally ability to switch with the summoned monster. It's possible to accomplish this feat at 2nd level, making it possibly the lowest level teleportation combo ever. (You need one level of binder, improved binder feat, and a level in druid/cleric/sor/wiz.)  You can switch places with Malphus's bird, past 8th.

Pouncers
10 Anima Mage + [Chupoclops] + [Ipos] + Shape Soulmeld [Girillon's Arms] + Open Chakra (arcane version) + Wraithstrike: Pounce, rend when all claw attacks hit for double damage and if 2 or more claws hit you deal an extra double damage. Polymorph you can metamorph into a cave troll to pick up a third rend attack and rake attacks. High level trick, as Ipos is a 6th level vestige. Wraithstrike ameliorates your low base attack. This is one of those OMG PWNZoRZ!!!1!! kinda things... parental guidance is suggested.

Skirmisher:duel:
10 Scout + [Paimon] + Dervish and Champion of CL: Between dervish dances, Paimon's death dance, +4 unnamed bonuses to dexterity, tumble and dance bonuses, and uncanny dodge this is just a solid choice all around.

Touch Attacks (Otiax based):monk:
10, 15 [Otiax] + [Malphas] + [Andromelius]: Use air blasts to deliver your sneak/sudden-strikes with greater accuracy as they require only melee TOUCH attacks. You also have reach. The air blast is really only functional for those characters who can add non-strength based damage. Three levels of swashbuckler might add to this combo nicely.  RAW, I think you can get Power Attack on, too: talk w/ your DM.

10, 15, 20 Neraph Charge (Planar Handbook) + Power Attack + [Otiax] + [Malphus] + [Chupoclops] + [Andromalius]: Charging activates Neraph Charge which renders opponents flat-footed at the end of a charge, deliver touch attacks with Sudden Strike, Sneak Attack, and Power Attack damage, and get a full attack thanks to Pounce. Malphus' Invisibility and Chupoclops' Ethereal Watcher ability set up pouncing the following rounds.


New Combos (not in the old Handbooks, but maybe are in the threads)

Skirmisher:duel:
3 [Paimon] + any horse mount: Again, Dance of Death just requires movement around the opponent, so for a great low-level option, just ride a horse around your opponent. You'll probably get +1 for attacking on higher ground, and the horse will have a higher movement rate.

8, 10, 15 [Paimon] + [Malphus] + [Haures] + [Geryon]: Use Bird's Eye Viewing to scout ahead of the party, and before you get into the encounter, go Invisible. You use Haures to move right through opponents, as they're flatfooted as you attack all of them, getting all the sudden strike in the world: even if they get AoO's, they have 50% miss chance (against AoO's only). Geryon allows you to use Swift Flight, getting an additional +2 to hit from being on higher ground (on top of +2 from weapon finesse and the dex bonus from Paimon), and adds 2d6 acid gaze damage to all those opponents. Obviously, the main combo is just Paimon + Malphus, but the others are nice.

Sniper:elf:
8, 10, 15, 20 [triad] + [Paimon] + [Leraje] + [Haures]: Become a ranged weapon deity. Get a Greatbow w/ Ricochet shot, Precise Shot, +4 Hide, +4 Dex, and Low-light Vision makes for a pretty neat Sniper. Any of the sneak attack/death attack/sudden strike vestiges make it that much better, too.  Haures makes a Major Image, which you DONT need to concentrate on, that you can fire from behind.

Sunder
9 [Aym] + Combat Brute: Not so great for PC's, but awesome for NPC's. Its simple: use Sundering Cleave w/ Aym's double damage on a Sunder. So freaking effective, it makes me guilty to mention it.

10 [triad] + [Aym] + Goliath Warhammer = some serious Sundering damage.

Disarm
10 [triad] + [Andras] + Flindbar = free disarm when you roll a natural 17 or higher, which is nice.

Anti-lawful / chaotic
11 [Eurynome] + [Primus] after 11th: Deal an extra 2d6 damage to lawful enemies, and extra d6 against chaotic enemies.

Ability Buffs
15 [Andras] or [Paimon] + [Abysm]:  Up to +8 to Str or Dex (4 unnamed, 4 enhancement), for BL rounds, usble a few times daily.

Anti-Undead
15, 20 Kas + Tenebrous + Acererak and/or Andras and/or Andromalius: The Undead Killer combo.  You can crit undead (and have a chance to blind them when you do), can't be critted by undead, bypass all undead damage reduction, can turn undead, detect undead, hide from undead and can speak with dead ...and beyond that you're healed by negative energy, immune to cold & electricity and can toss some added cold damage on your melee attacks ...and more.  Toss in Andras and you can Smite Evil and crit more often (you can crit undead with Kas, so why not crit them more often... and possibly blind them in the process).  Toss in Andromalius and remind those undead what a sneak attack feels like (again: thanks to Kas).

Heavy Cavalry:fight!:
10, 15, 20 [Andras] + [Chupoclops] + [Eligor] + [Balam] + Shocktrooper + Imp. Buckler Defense: The ultimate in damage dealing potential.  Pounce = full attack after charging; Lance = double damage after charging while mounted; Andras = free horsie, smite attack (which will be doubled on a charge w/ a lance), and Imp. Crit.; Eligor = +4 Str, natural armor, and a couple of great mounted feats, AND heavy armor prof; Balam = reroll 1 / 5 rounds, more AC, and 2d6 cold damage once per round; Shocktrooper = full 2 handed Power Attack damage to all the lance attacks, doubled, w/ no penalty to hit.  Consider a BAB 16 character (KoSS 5 / Binder 15): 4 attacks per round, attack bonus of +20 w/o further Str or magic weapon mods, and 2d8 + 40 (smite) + 4 (str), + 64 (power attack, 2H, doubled due to lance) per smite hit (2d8 + 108 damage), -40 for the follow-up attacks, if the weapon has the valorous enchantment, thats 4d8 + 216 damage, (triple that on a crit), plus another 2d6 cold damage every round; AC could be a 45, w/o ring of deflection (+8 armor, +5 enhancement, +5 natural, +4 cover using the horse, +2 Dex, +1 shield, +5 enhancement, +5 insight), or 29 on a full-on Shocktrooper run.  THAT'S what I think of when I think Fighter.

Pouncer (variant of above)
10, 15, 20 [Chupoclops] + [Ipos] + [Amon] + [Ronove] + Ignore Special Requirements + Shocktrooper + Leap Attack + (Binder 15 / KoSS 5): You use Jump to get a full doubling of your PA damage from Leap Attack and Shocktrooper w/o losing your BAB, as normal.  The main advantage is that on top of 4 natural attacks (2 claws, 1 headbutt, 1 bite), you also get to add iterative attacks from unarmed strikes using a monk's damage.  At 20th, this combo gives 8 attacks at +18 / +13 / +13 / +13 / +13 / +13 / +8 / +3, at 2d10 / d4 / d6 + d8 / d6 / d6 / 2d10 / 2d10 / 2d10, and all these attacks get an additional +32 damage each (plus Str, some at 1.5 some at 1).  Plus rend, plus soulsense, pluse ethereal watcher, plus darkvision, plus a swift action mage hand (carry Cure Serious Potions w/ it, to save time).  Wicked damage

13
Required Feats
There are a few feats every Binder needs:

Improved Binding: While its true that you won’t get any use out of it after 16th level, a Binder starting any level below 12th this will find in invaluable.
Weapon Focus: All full Binders must take all 5 levels of the Knight of the Sacred Seal prestige class.  It’s a mandate.

That’s it for required feats, leaving you 9 feats to pick (or 10 if you were human or strongheart Halfling).


Bonus Feats
You’ll get a few bonus feats, but these won’t define your main characteristics.  For the two Binder bonus feats, I think the following are good choices:

Expel Vestige (if you start below L4)
Rapid Pact Making (only if the feat bypasses the need for the drawing)
Sudden Ability Focus (if Rapid Pact Making is nerfed)
Improved Binding (if you start after L4, make this a bonus feat)
Ignore Special Requirements (you can afford to take this later, as the main benefit is to bind opposing vestiges)


Other Feat Choices, and Binder Roles
The other feat choices are all dependent on what party role you want to spend the most time doing.  The * means the feat isn't really the most important for that particular role.

Melee – Charging (Chupoclops based, add Ipos, Haures, Savnok)
Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, Leap Attack, Improved Sunder*, Combat Brute*, 1 free
Pretty standard: you use Headless Charge to take off your full PA from your AC, using a spear and Chupoclops' bite for X3 and X2 PA damage and lots of Str damage.  See the builds section for an example.

Melee – Mobile (Paimon based, add Chupoclops, Ipos, Ronove)
Improved Initiative, Dodge*, Mobility*, Martial Study*, Martial Stance*, Shadowblade*, Combat Expertise*, Deadly Defense*
Dance of Death will provoke lots of AoO's, but adding Dex to damage and getting and extra 2d6 when you win Initiative is all very synergistic.  Since Tumble isn't on your skill list, Mobility is actually very useful here.  Deadly Defense adds d6 damage to all light and finnessable weapons when fighting defensively or taking 2 off for Combat Expertise, which is useful, as finessable weapons don't do much damage in general.

Melee – Tank (Savnok or Aym based, add Dahlver-Nar, Halphax or Abysm, and Buer)
Dodge, Combat Expertise, Improved Buckler Defense, Shield Specialization*, Shield Ward*, Melee Evasion*, Combat Focus*, Combat Defense*
This is one more than you have unless you went with a bonus feat race.  Its an AC combination, obviously, and the most important feat here is Improved Buckler Defense, if you had to pick just one, but Dodge and Combat Expertise both add a lot.  The PHB2 feats really add to the sword and board style of combat.

Melee – Tactical Tripper (can have any melee vestige as the basis; Agares, Otiax, Paimon, Balam, etc)
Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Knockdown*, Hold the Line*, 1 free
The most basic Spiked Chain combination I could think of.  Only the first 3 are absolutely necessary (Combat Reflexes through Otiax, for example, or even EWP through The Triad).  Agares gives a nice 10' ability to knock people prone, that gets full use of Combat Reflexes, if you decide.

Arcanist – Tactical Nuke (Amon or Haures based, add Zagan, Chupoclops, Focolor)
Ability Focus, Sudden Ability Focus, Favored Vestige, Rapid Recovery, Sudden Empower Supernatural Ability, 2 free.
Nothing in the rules says you have to bind different vestiges, so you could bind 4 Amons and use a 20d6 Fire Breath every round this way.  Still, talk to your DM.  This combination is too focused on one vestige, imo, but if you do it you definitely want all the above feats.  Gerdreg developed this combination for high (ridiculous) DC Phantasmal Killers (I believe 43 once per day was the final DC).

Arcanist – Constant Damage (Focalor and Karsus based, add Halphax and Zagan)
Ability Focus: Lightening, Sudden Ability Focus*, Favored Vestige: Karsus*, Rapid Recovery*, Sudden Empower Supernatural Ability*, 2 free
Ability Focus for something you do every round is nice, and Rapid Recovery on Karsus lets you debuff more often.  Still too focused on too few vestiges, imo.  Realize that you can only use the dispelling ability of Karus once per day per Binder level.

Scout – The Seeker (Malphus, add Andromalus, Karsus, and Tenebrous)
Improved Initiative, Quick Recoinoiter*, Martial Study*, Martial Stance*, Shadow Blade*, Telling Blow, 1 free
Improved Initiative works well on everyone.  Quick Reconoiter is nice, assuming you didn't dump Wis too much, but even then you use the Bird's mods.  I think these 2 feats are well worth the investment.  Telling Blow gets more precision damage on a crit; make sure to get Keen weapons, somehow.  Shadow Blade boosts damage, and Martial Stance: Assasin's Stance gets you and extra 2d6 Sneak Attack, which is nice.

Scout – The Sniper (Leraje early, later Malphus, add The Triad, Andromalus, and Marchosias)
Point Blank Shot*, Rapid Shot*, Precise Shot*, Improved Rapid Shot*, Many Shot*, Ranged Pin*, 1 free
Ranged Pin is just funny.  Precise Shot is a redundant prereq.  You can pick the right vestiges and just emulate a Sniper easily; not really worth the feat investment.

Trapfinding (Karsus based, add Ashardolon later)
Shape Soulmeld: Theft Gloves*, Open Least Chakra: Hands*, Able Learner
This is a tough, tough role to fill for Binders.  They have low skll points per level, and need to invest heavily in Disable and Search cross-class.  First level should be Scout, preferably, or anything w/ Trapfinding, and Able Learner as a feat, to ease the pain (renders the Incarnum feats unnecessary).  My suggestion is to NOT do this: just bind Karsus, keep Karsus's Sence active, and use Karsus's Touch when you see a magic trap.  Mechanical traps mainly just do damage, and poison, and disease, which you should be able to avoid.

My suggestion is to pick a handful of great feats from 2-3 roles that you want to do, and you won’t go wrong!  For example, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, Leap Attack, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Quick Reconoiter, Improved Initiative could do the Mobile, Seeker, and Charging roles, and would be ok as the Tank. 

One other note: Fey Heritage, Fey Presence, and Fey Legacy.  The save DCs on this scale so freakin' well on a save based Binder, that enchanters basically have to wait until L6 spells (with all feats going to their saves) before they can top it.  Its three feats for five awesome 1/day abilities: Confusion, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Summon Nature's Ally 5 (summon 1d3 Unicorns for healing, etc, the possibilities are pretty wild).  I took them on my recent Binder, only starting with a 16 Cha, and at L12 the save DC is already up to a 23.  I may retrain them later, but the Confusion and Charm Monster have been taking out at least 1 monster per encounter right away.  They aren't considered powerhouses by any means, but they aren't worthless feats for some flavor.

Other Classes for a 1-4 level Dip
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Prestige Classes
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Magic Items of Note
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14
Small List Items, Feat Suggestions, Multi-class Suggestions, and Other Miscellanea

Pact Augmentations and Immunities
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Low-Level Binder Advancement, Racial Suggestions, Skills, low-level equipment
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=Feat Choices
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15
Lists by Type of Ability


Most of these were already written by T_G; just cut and pasted.  The newest Vestiges have been added, however.

Offensive Abilities
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Defensive Abilities
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Natural Weapons
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Feat-like
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Buff-like or Magic-Related Augments
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Miscellaneous

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16
I see that this is in the hatchet thread, but it never made it otherwise.  Here goes.

I can't take it anymore.  The formatting in the Consolidated Binder Handbook is so terrible, and was never fixed. This is now completely a repost, any new information and my person guide can now be found on the new Min/Max website.  All credit here goes to jameswilliamogle

    Consolidated Binder Handbook
    Table of Contents
    • Credits and Information
    • The Binder
    • Introduction to Pact Magic
    • Lists of Vestiges and Abilities *
      • List by Level *
      • List by Type of Ability *
      • Pact Augmentations and Immunities
      • Low-level Binder Advancement *
      • Feat Progression Suggestions for Generic Binders *
      • Magic Items of Note *
      • Strategies vs. Specific Creatures*
      • Combos *
        • Offensive Combos *
        • Defensive Combos *
        • Caster-like Combos *
        • Miscellaneous Combos *
        • Tips and Tricks *
        • Maximizing Save DC’s
        • Customer Service Quotes for Convenience *
        • Reports from the Trenches: Binder in Action*
        * NEW INFORMATION NOT IN PREVIOUS HANDBOOKS (but possibly buried in the thread)


        Credits and Information


        The purpose of this thread is to have one source for all a Binder’s needs, be they basic information, builds, combos, or anything else.  This is a copy for these boards from the CharOp boards basically because I don't think I'll be around the CharOp boards much longer, what with the fairly ridiculous changes occurring over there.

        T_G and Gerdreg, being the original authors of the two main Binder sourcebooks, both approve of the compilation here, and both have been really busy lately.  This is likely to happen to me, too, so I’ve created a new profile and password that is completely public, so that users may edit the information as they see fit.  Here it is:

        If you think something is in error, or you’d like to add some combos, please post it first, just so the community has a chance to digest it and to verify its legality.

        I’ve formatted the text such that “fluff” would all be in sblocks, which I hope doesn’t insult anybody, and the “meat” such as vestige power lists and combos, which the CO community thrives on, would be readily viewable on the second post.

        Much of the work here was done by T_G and Gerdreg, I’ve just been the organizer of some of the more recent developments, and their works (and that's a mountain of data to process, in and of itself).  With that, I hope you enjoy, and that it isn’t a wasted effort!

        Links to the original threads / handbooks:
        http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605415
        http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=607826

        -jameswilliamogle


        The Binder’s Role


        Quote from: Gerdreg
        Though there are only a limited number of vestiges currently available, and the binder may only bind a small number of them at once (up to four at a time by level 20), the Binder is one of the most versatile classes to date. Based on what vestiges the Binder chooses to make pacts with that day, the Binder can fill many different roles within a group. By combining different vestiges and their granted abilities, the Binder can choose to either further specialize in his chosen role in the party, or create a unique combinations of abilities not possessed by any standard class.

        One of the great strengths of Pact Magic is that, unlike spells, the special abilities granted by vestiges are not limited to a certain number of uses per day. Though each vestige does not grant a large number of abilities, a Binder who can make pacts with multiple vestiges can obtain a wide variety of abilities. Many of the more powerful abilities are only available once every five rounds, so a wise binder will make sure he has other abilities or items at his disposal between uses. The highest level vestiges allow access to some very strange and powerful combinations of abilities.

        Though not naturally as formidable in combat as the warrior classes, the Binder has medium BAB, d8 HD, and Good Fort and Will Saves. In addition to their vestige granted abilities and pact augmentations, a Binder can be a potent combatant if he or she chooses to be. Despite having a low number of skills points (2+Int per level), the Binder's bonus feats in addition to skill bonuses grants by many of the vestiges will allow the Binder to be very potent in the skills he chooses to pursue.
        In addition to this, I'd say, right from the start, Binders are RIDICULOUSLY complicated: if you haven't read the entire class, all the vestiges, and at least the first 3 posts to this thread, you will probably not play one to its entire potential.  Even then, if you are an inexperienced player, STAY AWAY FROM THIS CLASS!  Play a Rogue, instead, and max out Use-Magic Device for when you want to get tricky.

        Play a Binder when:
        • The healing, the arcane, and the trapfinding roles are covered (Binders aren't very efficient at these roles, though they can be decent secondary healers or arcanists.  Trapfinding works well with Able Learner and moderate Int);
        • You want to cover the party face role (Binders are GREAT at this!);
        • You are playing gestalt rules, and want something cool on one side;
        • You are going to be dealing with a campaign full of outsiders (all Binder abilities are Su: SR doesn't apply).
        (click to show/hide)

        Vestiges and Granted Abilities


        Below is a list of Vestige and their granted abilities.  I've updated the old lists with every vestige thats been published so far.  There are four sources of official WotC vestiges aside from Tome of Magic:
        • Design and Development article (Vanus)
        • Mind’s Eye article (Abysm, Arete, and The Triad)
        • Cityscape Web Enhancement (Astaroth, Deshartis)
        • Class Chronicles: Binders (Zceryll)
        • Dragon Magic (Ashardolon)
        • Dungeon Mag #148 (Ahazu)
        • Dragon #341 (Primus and Kas)
        • Dragon Mag #357 (Astaroth, again, Ansitif, Cabiri)
        This makes for a total of 41 vestiges, which means a TON of combinations (I'll let a statistician do the math on that one).  Summarized here.

        Figuring out great combinations is kind of tough: some synergies are obvious, but many are not.  When in doubt about what to do, determine randomly what you'll bind (use a deck of cards), then look to see what their abilities are and how well they synergize; just about any combination will turn out ok: these aren't weak abilities, after all.  On top of that, check out this post for making custom vestiges and its index:
        http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=606718
        http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D10791757%26postcount%3D452
        Thats ANOTHER 30+ vestiges, if you are looking for homebrew content... Pretty crazy.

        There is a new Vestige and Prestige Class posted with full stats here.  Its from the editor of Pathfinder, James Jacobs, and is about as official as non-WotC material gets.  Its also very balanced w.r.t. most vestiges (unlike a lot of homebrew content).  Its all related to the Age of Worms adventure path.


        1st Level
        • Amon - Darkvision, Fire Breath*, Ram Attack
        • Aym - Dwarven Step, Halo of Fire, Improved Sunder, Medium Armor Proficiency, Resistance to Fire, Ruinous Attack
        • Leraje - Hide Bonus, Low-Light Vision, Precise Shot, Ricochet, Weapon Proficiency
        • Naberius - Disguise Self, Faster Ability Healing, Naberius’s Skills, Persuasive Words*, Silver Tongue
        • Ronove - Cold Iron and Magic Attacks, Far Hand*, Feather Fall, Ronove’s Fists, Sprint
        2nd Level
        • Dahlver-Nar - Mad Soul, Maddening Moan*, Natural Armor, Shield Self
        • Haagenti - Confusing Touch*, Immunity to Transformation, Shield Proficiency, Weapon Proficiency
        • Malphas - Bird’s Eye Viewing, Invisibility*, Poison Use, Sudden Strike
        • Savnok - Call Armor, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Move Ally*, Savnok’s Armor
        3rd Level
        • Andromalius - Jester’s Mirth*, Locate Item, See the Unseen, Sense Trickery, Sneak Attack
        • Focalor - Aura of Sadness, Focalor’s Breath*, Lightning Strike, Water Breathing
        • Karsus - Heavy Magic, Karsus’s Senses, Karsus’s Touch*, Karsus’s Will
        • Paimon - Dance of Death*, Paimon’s Blade, Paimon’s Dexterity, Paimon’s Skills, Uncanny Dodge, Whirlwind Attack
        • Primus (Dragon 341) - Divine Structure, Lawful Attacks, Primus's Order*
        • Ahazu (Dungeon 148) - Ahazu’s Abduction, Ahazu’s Touch, Blindsight, Void Mind
        4th Level
        • Agares - Earth and Air Mastery, Earthshaking Step*, Elemental Companion, Fear Immunity, True Speech
        • Andras - Weapon Proficiency, Mount, Saddle Sure, Smite Good or Evil*, Sow Discord*, Sure Blows
        • Buer - Buer’s Knowledge, Buer’s Purity, Delay Diseases and Poisons, Fast Healing, Healing Gift*, Track
        • Eurynome - Animal Friend, Damage Reduction, Eurynome’s Maul, Poison Blood, Water Dancing
        • Tenebrous - Deeper Darkness, See in Darkness, Touch of the Void*, Turn/ Rebuke Undead*, Vessel of Emptiness
        • Arete (Mind’s Eye WotC article) – Psionic Boon, Resistance, Damage Reduction, Repletion
        • Kas (Dragon 341) - Blinding Strike, Bluff Bonus, Undead Reaper, Kas's Protection, and longsword, bastard sword, and short sword proficiency
        • Astaroth (Cityscape Web Enhancement) - Angelic Lore, Asaroth's Breath, Honeyed Toungue, Master Craftsman, Word of Astaroth
        • Astaroth (Dragon 357) - Blackflame, Divination, Serpentine Toung, Silvered Touch
        • Cabiri (Dragon 357) - Arcane Eye, Far-seeing Gaze, Seer in Darkness, Visons of Terror
        5th Level
        • Acererak - Detect Undead, Hide from Undead, Lich’s Energy Immunities, Paralyzing Touch*, Speak with Dead, Undead Healing
        • Balam - Balam’s Cunning*, Icy Glare, Prescience, Weapon Finesse
        • Dantalion - Awe of Dantalion*, Dantalion Knows, Read Thoughts, Thought Travel*
        • Geryon - Acidic Gaze, All-Around Vision, See in Darkness, Swift Flight*
        • Otiax - Air Blast, Combat Reflexes, Concealing Mist, Open Portal, Unlock*
        6th Level
        • Chupoclops - Aura of Despair, Ethereal Watcher*, Ghost Touch, Poison Bite, Pounce, Soul Sense
        • Haures - Inaccessible Mind, Incorporeal Movement, Major Image*, Phantasmal Killer*
        • Ipos - Cold Iron Claws, Flash of Insight*, Ipos’s Influence, Planar Attenuation, Rend
        • Shax - Freedom of Movement*, Immunity to Electricity, Storm Strike, Swim Speed
        • Zagan - Aversion*, Improved Grapple, Scent, Constrict, Snake Bane
        • Vanus (Design and Development WotC article) - Fear Aura, Free Ally*, Noble Disdain, Vanus’s Ears
        • The Triad (Mind’s Eye WotC article) – Psionic Boon, Call to Mind, Psicraft Bonus, Bardic Knowledge, Empathy, Diplomacy Bonus, Smite Evil, Detect Hostile Intent, Sense Motive Bonus, Weapon Proficiency
        • Desharis (Cityscape Web Enhancement) - City Dweller, Infinite Doors, Language of the City, Smite Natural Soul, Spirits of the City
        • Zceryll (Class Chronicles web article) - Alien Form, Alien Mind, Bolts of Madness, Summon Alien, Telepathy
        7th Level
        • Eligor - Chromatic Strike, Eligor’s Skill in the Saddle, Eligor’s Strength, Eligor’s Resilience, Heavy Armor Proficiency
        • Marchosias - Death Attack, Fiery Retribution, Smoke Form*, Silent and Sure
        • Ansitif (Dragon 357) - Blaspheme, Divine Resistance, Fire Immunity, Thrall to Demon
        8th Level
        • Ashardalon (Dragon Magic) - Ashardalon's Greed, Ashardalon's Presence*, Ashardalon's Vigor, Fiend's Heart
        • Halphax - Damage Reduction, Halphax’s Knowledge, Imprison, Iron Wall*, Secure Shelter*
        • Orthos - Blindsight, Displacement, Whirlwind Breath*, Whispering Wind
        • Abysm (Mind’s Eye WotC article) - Psionic Boon, Overpower
        * useable once every 5 rounds




        17
        Min/Max 3.x / Re: [Pathfinder] Daze Immunity?
        « on: August 11, 2013, 05:54:00 PM »
        I didn't mention what it was for, because the thing in question is houserule city.  Basically, my character is able to take an immediate action in order to attack and/or move.  It then dazes me for one round (no save) so that it's a "Go now" ability, rather than a free turn.  I thought being immune to daze might be helpful here.

        18
        Min/Max 3.x / [Pathfinder] Daze Immunity?
        « on: August 09, 2013, 12:11:15 AM »
        I need immunity to Daze.  Feats/Traits are best, even creature types/subtypes are Okay.  If it requires Class Levels, telling me is fine, but probably won't be workable.  Level 20 Capstones that make you immune to Daze are useless to me.

        19
        D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: [3.P] Summoner help?
        « on: September 14, 2012, 01:43:31 PM »
        Thanks for the replies!

        Yeah, I was worrying about the action economy with synthesist, which is why I had to ask about it, in case there was something I was missing.

        So the wild caller is a good choice then?  The loss of those evolutions won't hurt compared to the gain?  If so, I think quadruped is the way to go, since weapon training won't be available...

        I've played Synthesist, the action economy is obviously worse, which is one of the main reasons to play Summoner, on top of the fact that you're constantly putting yourself in harms way.  If you want to put yourself in harms way, play a Charger and make your Eidolon your mount with pounce or something.

        20
        D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: Pathfinder tier system
        « on: August 24, 2012, 09:01:27 AM »
        Paragon Surge on its own would have done it to any spontaneous caster for sure. Should this get a qualified T1(with Surge vs without) or unconditional though?

        I'm quite fine with replicating the days of old

        Tier 1
        Sorcerer (Paragon Surge), Oracle (Paragon Surge)

        Tier 2
        Sorcerer, Oracle

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