Author Topic: ways to cast epic spells pre 21  (Read 12306 times)

Offline Endarire

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2015, 12:15:07 PM »
Also, GM fiat!

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2015, 04:05:46 PM »
@Ly some of those are already mentioned (feat/savant) or blocked (kobolds), but there is also the the assumption that temporary Hit Dice can do that. Don't be a Link and invent thing or pose the rough argument of "didn't do the research" :p

Like Temporary Hit Points != Hit Points & Ability Damage != Damage, the extra or missing word significantly alters which rules are even being discussed. Temporary Hit Dice vs Hit Dice would be of no exception, and Epic rules uses the term Level so the question posed is Temp HD count as a level?

Now there is a lot of precedence for no and the rules don't support any argument for saying yes. Which is crippling since per Teaching the Game you must translate what you want to do into the game rules, IE prove you can is the default requirement. But to go into the concept if you houseruled it don't forget to look for collateral damage caused by the repercussions of the ruling. Like saying Bardic Music can increase your level may let you select Epic Feats, but it also means your level is higher for the purposes of determine XP. A +2 level difference is a huge 1/2 XP rate against the same CR so wanting the Feat options of say a Wizard 10 / Temp 2 means you've double the play time needed to actually be a Wizard 12.

Another thing to remember if either the group has said no Epics, that doesn't mean they've said yes to Epics and only the specifically method of progression based on XP is banned. That's actually pretty stupid and munchkin-like since you're obviously attempting to cheat and gain what's not agreed upon as not allowed.

Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2015, 04:27:03 PM »
@Ly some of those are already mentioned (feat/savant) or blocked (kobolds), but there is also the the assumption that temporary Hit Dice can do that. Don't be a Link and invent thing or pose the rough argument of "didn't do the research" :p
There's nothing blocking kobolds from taking epic feats, if they're Old or older and take the Dragonwrought feat. They're dragons and can be Old, which is literally all that matters. They even have age categories corresponding with the "normal" true dragons.

Like Temporary Hit Points != Hit Points & Ability Damage != Damage, the extra or missing word significantly alters which rules are even being discussed. Temporary Hit Dice vs Hit Dice would be of no exception, and Epic rules uses the term Level so the question posed is Temp HD count as a level?
Levels are levels, and several of the levels I mentioned are permanent, though they can be altered and removed. Even if they aren't actual levels, they're close enough for counting as far as max skill ranks and BAB go (as you gain both for temporary levels just fine).

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2016, 12:41:35 AM »
Congrats and just plain ignoring the earlier discussion and totally missing the point now.  :eh

Offline linklord231

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2016, 02:17:03 AM »
Lycan, Soro is still acting under the assumption that "dragon" within the context of Draconomicon always means "one of the 10 MM dragons" unless otherwise noted. The only citation he's made so far doesn't actually support him at all though, so take that for what you will.
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Offline faeryn

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2016, 05:53:28 AM »
He's not incorrect in his assessment. I just finished reading through every chapter of the Draconomicon that even mentions Epic Feats, and outside of the brief description that you've already quoted, it is only used in direct reference with True Dragon progression. Under the section of Advanced Dragons is where the epic feats for dragons above Old age comes into play. Dragonwrought Kobolds do NOT get epic feats from being old age as they are not true dragons and do not progress as dragons. The access to epic feats is part of the Dragon RHD advancement. Try actually reading the chapters in the book in full rather than simply pulling a single quote to support a theory. The rule is intended for dragons as monsters not dragons as players, as a tool for the DM to create truly epic encounters involving dragons.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2016, 12:52:30 PM »
I just finished reading through every chapter of the Draconomicon that even mentions Epic Feats,
So I like pretty much never hit that +1 button but that right there is worth one.

Awesome job Faeryn.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2016, 03:56:37 PM »
Why not do a Tauric Magical Beast-ified Petitioner (epic creature w a negative LA).

Now your HD is much higher than your level and grants you the ability to meet the skills and spell requirements quicker maybe via monstrous epic feat rules?

*slight edit
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 11:22:13 PM by zook1shoe »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2016, 12:32:55 AM »
Why not do a Tauric Magical Beast-ified Petitioner (epic creature w a negative LA).
What's the LA on Petitioner again?

Offline linklord231

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2016, 01:58:19 AM »
Why not do a Tauric Magical Beast-ified Petitioner (epic creature w a negative LA).
What's the LA on Petitioner again?

No LA listed*, but it sets your HD to 2.  You also lose all previous skills and feats, which somewhat defeats the purpose unless Tauric makes up for it. 

That being said, what happens if you have a character with an effective level less than zero?  For example, a Tayella has 34 HD and a printed ECL of 26, meaning a -8 LA.  When he dies and becomes a Petitioner, his HD get set to 2, but LA presumably doesn't change, so his final ECL is -6.  What happens?

*I'm looking at Manual of the Planes, by the way.  Not sure if it's been reprinted elsewhere.
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Offline kitep

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2016, 05:16:58 AM »
That being said, what happens if you have a character with an effective level less than zero?  For example, a Tayella has 34 HD and a printed ECL of 26, meaning a -8 LA.

I can't find the ECL of 26.  Epic Handbook, p156, has it 34.  Was it changed somewhere?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2016, 10:41:42 AM »
No LA listed*, *I'm looking at Manual of the Planes, by the way.  Not sure if it's been reprinted elsewhere.
In regard to LA if it doesn't have an entry it's not a Player Character and it's as simple as that.  And yes, since you've been on a terrible roll so before you even cause me a headache I do in fact know there are no LA entries in 3.0 and no bringing it up isn't rules proving you right.

Besides Petitioner has a 3.5 update. They appear in the Update Booklet (with no LA) and the SRD which says
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm (technically ran through google's Latin-to-English translation for proxy to bypass a firewall)
The template presented below is for NPCs, not player characters. If dead characters who are petitioners are later restored to life (once again becoming player characters), they forget any of their experiences as petitioners.

And minor tangent, could you like make it your New Year's resolution to read something before assuming what it does?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:48:08 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline linklord231

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2016, 12:42:22 PM »
That being said, what happens if you have a character with an effective level less than zero?  For example, a Tayella has 34 HD and a printed ECL of 26, meaning a -8 LA.

I can't find the ECL of 26.  Epic Handbook, p156, has it 34.  Was it changed somewhere?

Not sure what to tell you.  My copy of ELH definitely says 26.  First printing, published 2002. 

@SorO:  Dude, chill out.  All I was doing was answering your question, cuz you apparently couldn't be assed to do the research yourself.  I wasn't about to argue the case either way. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2016, 08:40:18 PM »
@SorO:  Dude, chill out.  All I was doing was answering your question, cuz you apparently couldn't be assed to do the research yourself.  I wasn't about to argue the case either way.
Says the man who brought it up like you could use it, didn't read the entry saying you cannot, and invented a word all in one post.  :rolleyes

Also my ELH matches kitep's. While that could be chalked up to an OCR error since it is a PDF, seeing how the entire net is utterly devoid of discussion of the subject and we know you can't read the books I'm inclined to think... Well I'm sure you know what I'm inclined to think. But I went ahead and found a different copy for sport and it also disagrees with you. Try licking the number and see if there is a bit of leftover food stuck to your page from the group that used it last before putting it up on ebay for you.

Offline linklord231

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2016, 04:14:43 PM »
@SorO:  Dude, chill out.  All I was doing was answering your question, cuz you apparently couldn't be assed to do the research yourself.  I wasn't about to argue the case either way.
Says the man who brought it up like you could use it, didn't read the entry saying you cannot, and invented a word all in one post.  :rolleyes

I didn't bring it up.  I answered your question about it. 

Also:  can't be assed.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2016, 10:17:19 PM »
Im dumb.... you need the negative LA for the torso, not the body. NVM my suggestion (unless it could have a diff work around)
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People people, be nice! Soro, i know thats hard for you, but please try :-)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 10:19:30 PM by zook1shoe »
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Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2016, 09:15:57 AM »
Also:  can't be assed.
I believe that's a British phrase, so shouldn't it be "can't be arsed"?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2016, 01:37:26 PM »
People people, be nice! Soro, i know thats hard for you, but please try :-)
Whaaat? I'm always nice.

@Lycanthro, well yeah if you wanted to use the British slang correctly instead of half-assed.   :drums

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2016, 11:09:46 PM »
 :looloo
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: ways to cast epic spells pre 21
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2016, 01:23:47 AM »
:looloo
I think the politically correct term is mentally hilarious according to Facebook.