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Messages - Bronzebeard

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41
Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) / Re: The Problem With Skills
« on: April 19, 2016, 04:08:12 AM »
All of what I read are valid points. Problems are being pointed and missing features are mentioned.
There's also the relation of skills - spells, like sleight of hand vs. knock, that represents how spells are such a huge cacophony of a thing. But that's besides the point.


I think that in order to make this a benefiting initiative we'll have to turn this all on it's head: Instead of highlighting the mistakes of previous tries let's make a checklist of what we do want the skill mechanic to be:

  • we know that the 'roll 20 add bonus is paramount to d&d, it's in the beginning of the every edition books. So we'll want something that gives the same framework.
  • I would love to keep ranks as a thing (The introduction of trained/not trained really irks me - I really really really don't like it). There a few options to treat "gaining" them, but in general - ranks!
  • For each class there are skills that are crucial: Wizards use Spellcraft and Arcana, front Wizard also use Concentration, Psionics use Autohypnosis and Psicraft, Warriors use Tumble, arguably also attack bonus (every level they "invest" 1 rank in it). All classes have option to take skills such as Ride and Climb, etc'

By setting a starting line and going forward we, I think, will get a better result. I hope.


(P.S. I love lists  :D )

42
Min/Max 3.x / Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« on: April 19, 2016, 03:17:58 AM »
For some reason, I'm thinking about the feat battle blessing.

Maybe play something else? Settlers of Catan sounds lovely.

43
Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) / Re: Chargen Houserules.
« on: April 14, 2016, 06:51:55 AM »
I know it' s not the subject of the thread. And I know it's a complex item.

But I'd like to take the opportunity to delve into it - as you eloquently said it yourselves: "skills scale like a drunken monkey drives".
As the system is based around rolling on a scale of 20. I think that's the goal we should strive to. Accommodating to a group of players whereby the weakest person has a +5 points bonus tops, and the biggest caliber got a +53 bonus makes skill checks unusable.

I read a few attempts where a solution was tried by things like capping skill ranks/bonuses by level or escalating ranks cost to former ranks (buying 4th rank cost 1+2+3+4 = 10).

44
Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) / Re: Chargen Houserules.
« on: April 13, 2016, 08:10:54 PM »
If I had to do BAB into a skill check, I'd...

0. Fix skill scaling; seriously, skills scale like a drunken monkey drives - too erratically and too quickly.
Yeah... can you go into more detail? Like place numbers?

45
Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) / Re: Chargen Houserules.
« on: April 13, 2016, 07:06:23 PM »
Question:
If you had to translate BAB into skill check - how would you do it?

Also, what is the skill list?

46
Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) / Re: Tri-class Gestalt
« on: April 12, 2016, 12:19:51 PM »
Can you give a character example? (You don't have to)

47
   •  Codes of conduct are roleplaying guides. Played properly, it means that a cleric needs to act like a cleric, which isn't hard to do. Played improperly, it is the DM looking for an excuse to remove a party member, which will satisfy exactly no-one, including the nonmagical party members.
I had an idea regarding this:
What if the Code of Conduct had an in game manifestation. Specifically in the form of Affiliations (PHB II, page 163).
Doing things according to the guild's laws would give fuel to power class's abilities. Sort of. Just an idea.


The root of the spellcaster's power is his spells. Changing everything but the spells themselves is missing the point.
Yea... I completely agrees with Maelphaxerazz's excellent analysis. Unfortunately.


(bronzebeard's thread is amusing)
I'll take that as a compliment.


This is exactly what everyone should want. But of course (queue whiny voice) it's hard. So they don't. They instead put the cart before the horse and try to add unecessary layers of complexity by (poorly) reinventing the wheel.
I'd love to do that - even if it's difficult. I started the threads in order to gain insight as to how to fix it. Yet, I still think that there are missing components from the basis to the game which makes changing it impossible and needs to be address. I'm willing to heard otherwise.


Have you looked into my 3.5 Metacompendium? The character building resources include my minimalistic homebrew fixes.
Have I seen it? Is it from your sig.? Can you link what you refer to?
Please?  :flutter

48
Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) / Re: Tri-class Gestalt
« on: April 12, 2016, 08:41:32 AM »
What, exactly, would the idea accomplish?
What problem does it address?

49
I'm going back for this as I've seen I need this to be successful but I'm having a hard time processing it.

I like:
The way initiative is on an infinite meter instead of fixed forward list (zero to some high starting number).
Delayed and Waiting have a more meaningful implementation.
Actions speed have n attribute.

I don't like:
Using abstraction.
The possibility of negative numbers.
Duplication of both numbered initiative and delaying round actions.

Is there a way to improve on this?

50
Game Design / You roll what and add how much?
« on: March 22, 2016, 05:23:41 PM »
As theoretical as it goes -

I'm looking at this page, and out of it comes the question of what resources are available for d&d players? And as a bonus question, even thou it's not really a resource as per the example provided, what method exists in d&d? The basis was always roll d20 and add a modifier (written in the first introductory part of the book), and latter was added a roll twice and discard one of the results. What can you think of?

51
switch the bonus to trained in a skill to penalty in untrained skill - however, instead of a flat numerical, pick the lowest out of two rolls (2 x d20 and pick lowest).

52
I'm adding two more. From abjuration school - counter and dispel.

KeyEffectSlot CostRepetitionPHexample
countercancel a spell being cast or concentrated upon of the same level or lower1this counterspell is treated as 1 level higherBattlemagic Perception
dispeldispel 1 ongoing, non concentrated upon spell effect of the same level1this dispel is treated as 1 level higherDispelling Touch

There's always the question if a mage should exert the same energy (same level of spell slot) to negate a spell?



If I separate the keys then we get something like so:

KeyEffectSlot CostRepetitionPHexample
1stinflict a condition on Str.1Ray of Enfeeblement
slowinflict a condition on Dex.1Ray of Clumsiness
exhaustinflict a condition on Con.1
deludeinflict a condition on Int1
afflictinflict a condition on Wis1Touch of Idiocy
Compelinflict a condition on Cha1
Bane-1 for ability modifier2additional -1
Boon+1 for ability modifier2additional +1

But now we find ourselves with new questions:
Shouldn't the ability modifying Keys should be separated for each of the 6 as well? The idea of a necromancer saping strength seems right - while the same caster hampering charm doesn't sit with me that well. It also worth noting that it might fall to the same trap of having some characters that can do everything (meaning that they have a large enough toolbox to apply to almost anything).
And what happens if two persons cast the same spell twice? Would double Boon equal a 2 level Boon use? Or casting twice the Exhaust option, one after the other,  will make the target fatigued and then exhausted?



As for bloated laundry list - There are close to 3K spells in the system already. No way I can come up with unique Keys of half that number.

53
@Amechra:
The state of the Vancian Spellcasting is a result of growing 'organically' so to speak. Over time the spells and spell lists and casting classes got out of hand. The problems are threefold and already been mentioned by others:
For starters - the schools, the differentiation between divine and arcane, and even the classes themselves (see Wizard vs. Sorcerer) have no impact, whatsoever, for the game itself. The names change but nothing else.
Moreover, more likely then not, new casting classes will draw power from the giant-massive-all-encompassing Wiz/Sor spell list. Even ones like the Warmage class are getting a specific list of spells (that are from the same mentioned giant list) and can be expanded by choosing some spells from, once again, the same exact list.
The only exception to this are Classes that arrived later and brought their own, new and shiny spells. The binders and vestige, Incarnium, Truename. Each of them had a different flavor, but they all seem to be doing the same thing (apart for Tome of Blades IMHO).
Which brings me to the last point: You can wave your hand differently, shout words or not, wave a magical wizardly wand, or paints runes on your body. Bottom line is that they all carry the same punch, all having the same panache. I don't fault the classes - I blame the framework with which they exist within. You see, doing 1d6 damage is the same as doing the same 1d6 damage, even if they are from different spells. Grappling an opponent (and thus nulling his Dex) is the same as penalizing his Dex to 1 or 0. At least by my experience.
The conclusion I reached at the last chapter of the "Vancian Discussion" is that There's a need for a unified and easy to grasp rules for spells. They all need to be based on the same meter, same components and same power gauge with comparable stairs like vancian levels. The limiting factors will be built into the classes themselves, where not one character can gain all spells and only excel at certain field.


@faeryn:
Well, yeah. There are a lot of Keys missing still:
In addition to what you already stated there's also Counter/Dispel, Contact, Transform, Slay, Reflections And I'm pretty sure there are more.

Regarding illusion - the school itself divides into 5 (or 6) items. There's figment and glamer and shadow, phantasm and pattern and everything in between. So does that mean 6 more Keys? I think that before that I need to establish what each of this things does exactly and then I would know.

When I went over this groups I intended on grouping the abilities with certain capabilities. e.g. the 12th Key, debuffing charisma, encompass the line of spells that Charm a person. So, whoever gets charmed is actually have his Charisma attacked and vice versa. (I built it after trying to revitalize the whole ability damage rules).
On the flip side - enhancing your int grants you insight and knowledge. Therefore, reveal Key (bonus to Int) is the basis for Detect spells.
Still not sure that it is wise to combine them.
See what I'm getting at?

54
errrrrrr...
alright.
Here's a rought initial draft:


KeyEffectSlot CostRepetitionPHexample
1st-2 penalty for str based rolls and a condition1additional -2Ray of Enfeeblement
slow-2 penalty for dex based rolls and a condition1additional -2Ray of Clumsiness
exhaust-2 penalty for con based rolls and a condition1additional -2
delude-2 penalty for int based rolls and a condition1additional -2
afflict-2 penalty for wis based rolls and a condition1additional -2Touch of Idiocy
Compel-2 penalty for cha based rolls and a condition1additional -2
bolster+2 bonus for str1additional +2
haste+2 bonus for dex1additional +2
9th+2 bonus for con1additional +2
reveal+2 bonus for int1additional +2
11th+2 bonus for wis1additional +2
12th+2 bonus for cha1additional +2
rust-2 for AC1additional -2
ironskin+2 for AC1additional +2
harmdeal 8 hp damage1additional 4 hpinflict light wounds
healrestore 8 hp1additional 4 hpcure light wounds
summonsummon 1HD creature1the creature's hd increase by 1Summon Monster I
banishremove 1HD of creature from battlefield1may remove a creature bigger by 1 additional HD
transportcaster teleport up to 10 feet2teleport range extend by 10 feetdimension leap
energydeal 5 points of elemental damage and a condition1additional 3frost touch
wardabsorb 5 points of element damage1additional 5resist energy

55
Your point being?

Also, have you seen my threads regarding arcane spellcasting?

56
I had the revelation of maybe going at it the opposite way. Instead of trying to 'fix' based on current systems - build something primary and then fix course.
For that I need to decide what are the basic forms of each spell form. If anyone knows the answer It would greatly help me:

I'm trying to establish the most basic forms of spells for each path. A crude grouping comes up with:
  • healing (probably cure minor wounds
  • harming (inflict minor wounds
  • some sort of fear effect spell
  • charming or compulsion spell
  • dazing
  • armor or physical protection
  • summon (I guess number one on that list, no?)
  • banish type (arcane anchor, IIRC)
  • hiding spell
  • detecting spel
  • dispelling or countering (is there a mechanic difference?)
  • energy spell
  • force based spell
  • slaying spell
  • teleportation spell
  • movement spell
  • transformation or shape-shifting spell

And any other spelltype that is absent from the list.

I am working on it still. It's just that any outside contribution is greatly welcomed.

 :)

57
I wanted to add the list of seeds from epic spells design. I thought that SorO_Lost's remark was spot on, and I think it's wise to study every information available before trying to create something (especially if it dismiss the need to create out of nothing).

Unfortunately, it seems to be so much work and I just finished processing FrDave's work. I feel kinda exhausted. Maybe I'll get to it at a later date. Maybe.

@Amechra
If you have anything to show, I'd be willing to take a read.

@SorO_Lost
Without some kind of reference to a projected damage output per level - I can't really tune the damage output of spells to be balanced. Big part of this whole do-over was to address the potential of wizards vs. that of martials. It's less of a question of 1 dice or 2 dice and more of a question for the nature of the mathematical function. There's a difference in how the math behave when the underlying numbers are calculated in each of the following:
 - 1d6 + level
 - 1d6 per level
Or other types of functions.

I think I already mentioned it before; the warlock (and Dragonfire Adept, and others) suffers from extreme of the other side of the scale. They gain balanced, or less of a discrepancy between levels of power by having an extreme lack of choices and a very limited decision making or room for improvisation.
I'd much rather tackle head on the balancing of spells and have them available for every character.
Now, it has already been pointed out that in the short term (and quite possibly, the long term as well), having the DM use ad-hoc solutions and decisions to solve the horrible layout of the rules and give answers for problems as pointed by players, would be better.
Maybe.
Could be.
Probably true.


I still think this is something that is worth the effort. I really truly believe that bunch of forums goers with a clear mind and experience in RPG could come up with better framework.
Hell, I'm finding more and more posts and blogs and writings with solutions that have some common ground. Most of them phrase the same problems/mistakes with the system.
I think that it's safe to say that there is demand. And we can provide supply.
Possibly.

58
    I went over FrDave's dozen blog posts about deconstructing and breaking down the spells and spell groups. I tried to scrutinize the lines to a better view of the results.
    I restate that the following is not something that I created or deem as a fitting solution. Only as a decent start.
    ________________________________________________________________________________


    Each bullet has a price in {} at the end of the line.

Damaging spells
base spell is 1d6 + level, single, touch attack.
  • damage of 1d6/ level {1}
  • area effect (total of 4 one inch squares) {1}
  • turn touch to ranged {1}

Buffing spells
base spell is touch spell for 6 rounds.
  • add any two of the following vs. specific source: {1}
    • +1 Save
    • +1 AC
    • +1 Morale
    • +1 Attack
  • generalize the source from which the spell defends {1}
  • affect area of 10 feet {1}
  • turn touch to ranged {1}
  • double movement speed {1}
  • halve movement speed {1}
[li]immunity to 1 physical attack type {2}[/li][/list]

Healing
base spell is 1 full round cure 1 out of:
    • 1d6+1 hp
    • disease
    • curse {require base level of 2 for arcane spells}
    • poison {require base level of 2}
  • turn touch to ranged  {1 - double for arcane}
  • make the spell take effect immediately {1 - double for arcane}
  • cure additional 1d6+1 hp {3}
  • "cure" death — requires one other modifier {3}

Detection
base spell is range of 1"/level and an instantaneous duration.
  • add 6 turns duration {1}
  • add range of +6"  {1}
  • 3"r. Area Effect {1}

Transform
base spell is Gain one non-combat trait (i.e. infravision). Duration = 6 + caster level turns. Range = touch. only affect living creatures
  • Duration = 1 day {1}
  • Range = 12" {1}
  • Affects 2-12 targets in a 6x6" area {1}
  • Gain all non-combat traits — you look like a dragon and can fly like a dragon, but you don't have a breath weapon and you use the same combat dice you always do. {1}
  • Traits affect combat (requires Gain all non-combat traits) — you look like a dragon and fight like one too {1}
  • Ability to transform non-living inanimate objects into living objects or vice-versa. (requires Gain all non-combat traits) — when a caster turns himself into a non-living object this is not an instant kill; however, when cast upon another target, it is {1}
  • Duration = permanent {2}

Conjuration/Summon
base spell is 2nd level spell. Summons 1 extant creature of a specific type with 1-6 (d6) HD. Duration = concentration. Range = none. Area Effect = none. Caster has control of the summoned creature.
  • Duration = fulfillment of a single task (no concentration necessary). {1}
  • Range = 24" (the creature can appear/be anywhere within 24") {1}
  • Number of Creatures = any number totaling the HD summoned (If 3HD are summoned, the base spell summons one 3HD creature. This allows those 3HD to be divided among a number of smaller HD creatures — three 1HD creatures or six 1/2HD creatures, for example). This is a general area effect (sewer, swamp, lake, etc.). {1}
  • Creature Type = extra planar (creature does not need to already be available) {1}
  • Creature HD = 7-12 (d6+6) HD {1}
  • Duration = permanent {2}
  • Creature HD = 12-18 (d6+12) HD {2}

Dispel
base spell is Cancels out a specific spell or spell-like effect instantly and permanently. Range = touch
  • Affects all magic {1}
  • Range = 12" {1}
  • Area Affect = 3" r. {1}
  • Duration = 6 turns {1}
  • Affects summoned creatures (a missed saving throw = banishment; save = morale check failure) {2}
  • Duration = 12 turns {2}
  • Creates a shield that blocks spells in and out {2}

Communication
base spell is Read or speak a language otherwise unknown to character (fauna only). Duration = 3 rounds/caster level
  • Duration = 6 turns {1}
  • May communicate with creatures that do not have obvious means of communicating (flora, for example) {1}
  • Targets are predisposed to do what the caster asks of them (bonus to the reation roll) {1}
  • Target is from a higher plane of existance (requires communication with non-fauna creatures and a Duration = 6 turns). This comes in two forms, depending on the spell caster. Clerics get 3 questions that will be answered honestly. Magic Users get up to 12 questions, but these must be "yes" "no." In addition the caster runs the risk of not only being lied to, but of going insane. The fewer the questions, the more likely they answers are false. The more questions asked, the higher chance of insanity. Maybe used no more than once/week. {2}

Change Environment
base spell is Make a minor change in the surrounding environment (light, temperature, etc.). Duration = 6 + caster level turns. Area Effect 3" diameter. Range none
  • {1}
  • Duration = permanent {1}
  • Area Effect = 30" sq./a single small geographic feature {1}
  • Range = 12" {1}
  • Effect = affects a specific group mechanically {1}
  • Spell effect may be moved independently of the spell caster {1}
  • Range = 24" {2}
  • Effect = affects a general group mechanically {2}

Sustenance
base spell is Purify poisoned/spoiled food and water enough for 12 men.
  • {1}
  • Quantity adds (caster level x2) men {1}
  • Quantity adds mounts {1}
  • Substitute "create water" for "purify poisoned/spoiled food and water." {1}
  • Substitute "create food" for "purify poisoned/spoiled food and water." {2}

Movement
base spell is (teleportation): Duration = instantaneous. Range = self. Teleport 6" with no chance of misjudging.
  • Teleport 12" with no chance of misjudging {1}
  • Range = 1" {1}
  • Teleport 36" with no chance of misjudging {2}
  • Range = 3" {2}
  • Range = 2" per caster level {3}
  • Teleport anywhere as long as destination is known. Any uncertainty might result in death. {4}
base spell is (axial): 0 level (must purchase at least one addition) Duration = 3 turns. Speed = 6". Range =self. Medium = Air. Axis = Vertical or Horizontal
  • Duration = 1d6 + caster level turns {1}
  • Speed = 12" {1}
  • Range = 2" per caster level {1}
  • Medium = Liquid {1}
  • Axis = Both Horizontal and Vertical {1}
  • Speed = 36" {2}
  • Medium = Solid {2}

Enchant
base spell is Target must make a save or be compelled to carry out one command by the caster. Target is free to carry out this command in a manner that reflects their basic personality and alignment. Duration = until the task is complete. Area Effect = 1 person of 4+1 HD or less. Range = 3". Target = humanoid.
  • Duration = 6 + caster turns (and thus possibly more than one command). {1}
  • Range = 12" {1}
  • Area effect = 1 person/creature of any HD {1}
  • Save at penalty -2 {1}
  • No save for creatures with less than 1/3 of caster level (1/2HD at 2nd level, 1 HD at 4th level, 2 HD at 7th level, etc.) {1}
  • Target = monster {1}
  • Target's basic personality & alignment are subject to change at the will of the caster {1}
  • Duration = until dispelled {2}
  • Range = 24" {2}
  • Area Effect = 2d6 creatures + 1 per level above 8 {2}
  • Save at penalty -4 {2}
  • Some kind of withering disease or curse affects the target when they do not fulfil the command(s) of the caster. {2}



(click to show/hide)

I have a few gripes with what is written above.
Mostly that the decomposing is based off of spells that initially wasn't constructed with any order or reason. Also, the groupings used above doesn't always appear by rules and influences but rather by themes.
Lastly, it doesn't give any room for more inventive cross-group spells (enchant+healing, for example).

59
5d6 averages 17.5 and 5th level Spells are ECL 9+.

To scale, 18 Str & Greatsword deals 2d6+6 (13/hit) and they get three attacks per round for 39 damage or 220% the damage of a spellcaster and the 'mundane' isn't even at par seeing how by the 9th level the game expects you to have stuff like a +2 level increase & an enhancement bonus to strength plus magical weapons. Damage is about the last thing you need to worry about nerfing. I mean even the Warlock's +1d6 per two levels is considered weak, it's why Hellfire & Glaive are musts, and even that thing lets you attach an area based Shape & debuffing Essence to it for free.

Take note that those numbers are temporary and not balanced at all. So, pointing them as faulty is kinda... only logical.
Can you mark up a table with numbers of expected damage output or the damage the warriors do for comparison.
That would greatly help.

And speaking of, ever consider expanding on Invocations?
Could you elaborate please?


Here's something that might be worth giving a butcher's.

Skip the first two posts - you want the OD&D Magic Champions Style posts.
That's an amazing catch. Greatly appreciated. It also shows that I'm (we're) not the only one feeling that way.
Would you mind telling me what OD&D stands for (I know what the abbreviation is. Just that there are many editions and I'm not sure what they're referring to).

60
On a more on-topic note: how are you thinking of combining blocks? Like, do I smash summon/ice/fright together to summon a scary ice monster or a terrifying blizzard, or would there be more structure and nuance in place?
This is for all of us to decide. But if you ask me personally then I would say that summon/ice/fright would create a spell that would summon a monster, inflict cold damage on enemies and force a save roll vs. fear. I think that the summon part encompass the monsters themselves and if a certain foe can fear or not should be reflected in the monster's CR itself.
The blocks all refer to the spell we create. That's what I think at least.


I'm not sure what the issue is with Magic Resistance. Do you mean overcoming it, or how some spells are SR: No?
Also, what is the issue with the obscurity of spellcaster checks? Do you mean that you want spells to fail more, or what?
Both.
Spell resistance brings to the table this type of binary nature that's really not fun to play with.
I don't think that it's that engaging.

The 15 minute workday is mostly a resource management issue. The obvious way to address it (outside of the DM contriving circumstances to discourage it) is to make it so spells come back faster. Imagine a scenario where the caster only gets a handful of spells in a combat, but they all come back in minutes. It's a paradigm shift, but it solves the problem.
That was the exact option that came up last time.


Were you planning on anything similar to Entangle, Web, Grease, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, or Solid Fog?
Were you planning on stuff like:
  • Soften Earth and Stone/Stone Shape
  • Polymorph
  • Zone of Truth
  • Alarm
  • Light
Some of these are pretty broad effects and some are pretty narrow. I like having options for all of them. You could easily throw Soften Earth and Stone/Stone Shape into "earth powers" or "transmutation", depending on how you divide it up.
As stated before – I didn’t write blocks for all of the options already exist. Mainly, because I don't know how. If you have a suggestion or otherwise then I'm all ears.
One thing I'm pretty sure about is that there are spells that can be separated to be in 'Ritual' group. I think that the move made at 4th edition, were they differentiated between in-combat and out-of-combat spells to spells and rituals, was a good one.

I'm also not sure if it's better to create the blocks as thematically grouped or balance grouped: Say wall of stone, stoneshape, and wall of force – is it Wall and molding blocks? Or force and earth blocks.



It might be a good time to start with some specifics on just a few of the blocks, to see how things work … Direct damage is probably one of the easiest to start with, because it's working with raw numbers,
I'll try.

I'm creating an offensive damaging spell called "BB's life leech".
The blocks I'm using are ray+necrotic+echo+echo+echo
The spell I created is now a ranged touch attack, dealing 1d6 damage (ray part), that is of the necrotic/necromancy type (necrotic part, maybe missing a special effect. Like wither type effect. Fire spells cause burning, necrotic spells cause what?), and for the next 3 rounds another bolt is fired at the same target once per round (3 times echo).
The spell is built from 5 blocks (3 types of blocks) so it is 5th level spell. That limitation exists so that you have some sort of power threshold.
Maybe because it's a 5th level spell then it deals 5d6 damage. One for each level?

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