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Meta Board => Off Topic Fun => Topic started by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 01, 2016, 05:16:30 PM

Title: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 01, 2016, 05:16:30 PM
Wired's write-up (usually positivist about)
http://www.wired.com/2016/01/googles-go-victory-is-just-a-glimpse-of-how-powerful-ai-will-be/

A real expert's review of the "GoBot" :  (warning this is very long go-specific)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHRHUHW6HQE

(edit flipped the two links)


Discuss ...

Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: bhu on February 04, 2016, 01:33:17 AM
personally I look forward to the day they learn to play Halo and call us all noobs
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: Amechra on February 04, 2016, 04:12:21 AM
Probably not within our lifetimes, to be honest.

Success in Chess and Go boils down to predicting what your opponent is going to do next. You have a limited (if really large) set of moves you have to analyse and check. Ultimately, developing a good AI for Chess or Go involves developing a more efficient algorithm for picking out "good" moves.

D&D... well, first you run into the fact that D&D has no actual victory condition, so gauging competency becomes much more difficult. Then you run into the fact that RPGs in general hinge on several things that computers are terrible at.

1) Interpreting natural language. Seriously, this is a big area of research because computers are shit at it, due to being utterly incapable of resolving ambiguities on the fly.

2) Social interaction. Oh, sure, we can pull all kinds of magic tricks to make it look like a computer is talking with you... But that's all those are.

3) Improvisation. I mean, the whole reason we have a DM and not just Friend Computer is because the DM can make value judgements for those times when the rules fall short. You'd have to code each new on-the-fly ruling and houserule into the AI every time you ran into one.

4) Bringing the Cheetos. I mean, have you ever seen a Cheetos delivery robot?  ;)

I mean, you probably could write an AI that could play a Fighter in combat pretty well? Or one that played some other relatively straight-forward character? But I can't really see one that plays any kind of character outside of combat (OK, the computer can just be that one dude that shows up just for combat, and naps through everything else).

The real problem with coding the AI would be dealing with all of the edge cases monsters introduce. Compared to developing a strategy to defeat (or flee from) an arbitrary encounter, making an AI that wins every single Go game it plays would be like making one that wins or draws every game of tic-tac-toe that it plays.

For reference, you can build a learning AI for tic-tac-toe from matchboxes and beads. (http://makezine.com/2009/11/02/mechanical-tic-tac-toe-computer/) Technically, you could do it for chess too, if you had enough matchboxes (you don't have enough matchboxes.)
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 04, 2016, 05:04:54 PM
 :) halo

I've read about some learning programs used
for de-bugging and eventually they get good at it.
Provided some of the hurdles you mention have
some sort of intro-work-around, said debugging
could be used the other way around, to locate
the nifty C.O.-ish points.

Personally, I think the d&d rule-set(s) is (are)
way bigger than the Bible and they've been
arguing about that one for a really long time.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: FireInTheSky on February 04, 2016, 09:30:13 PM
(you don't have enough matchboxes.)
:lol
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: JohnnyMayHymn on February 05, 2016, 12:16:08 AM
Reminds me of this http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/12/super-mario-solved (http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/12/super-mario-solved)

Here, the AI ends up stacking Tetris blocks as fast as possible, only to pause the game right before losing, to avoid losing.

Maybe we just don't tell the AI about the 'rocks fall, everybody dies' thing.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 06, 2016, 04:06:27 PM
Heh.
That's ~like Data trying to not lose
against the world champ of wtf game
and winning that way. (Star Trek ng)

Driverless cars are way more important
than d&d ... not to me they aren't, but duh.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: Solo on February 06, 2016, 06:09:32 PM
Heh.
That's ~like Data trying to not lose
against the world champ of wtf game
and winning that way. (Star Trek ng)
Strategema. And it was third level grandmaster Sirna Kolrami, thank you very much.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 11, 2016, 05:33:13 PM
... enjoyed that episode, still memorable.
Rope-a-dope is a workable strategy (sometimes).


Computer beats race car driver :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11410261/Driverless-car-beats-racing-driver-for-first-time.html

and some minor Legal issue about driverless cars got cleared up within the last few days.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 19, 2016, 03:45:40 PM
Oh here we go ... Billion years+ long data storage.
Aliens are gonna be so confused by my kitty avatar  :pout
http://www.orc.soton.ac.uk/962.html

... and hey shout-out to the aliens that did find this 10 billion years in the future.  How's it hangin' guys?
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on March 13, 2016, 02:40:04 PM
It's just an evolution model, really. It's sort of like splicing videos together of other people doing well at something. Then when you line up the video so the motions don't look edited, you say "Look how well I continuously score!" Well, yeah.

Don't get me wrong. It is an achievement, and one that took a lot of work. But its not something inherently special. It's not real AI

personally I look forward to the day they learn to play Halo and call us all noobs
Clearly you've never played against max perfect dark or UT bots. It's simple: maphack, locate closest sighted opponent, run straight there while aiming, aim to anything gaining sight, shoot first.

Seriously. It's painful. You have to play in slow-motion to have any hope of fighting back. It's also kind of beautiful to see the laser efficiency. Now, coding the above without the maphack is actually challenging but no longer brutal in efficiency.

Aliens are gonna be so confused by my kitty avatar  :pout
... and hey shout-out to the aliens that did find this 10 billion years in the future.
We don't understand that kitty, and we're people. But nice acknowledgement of the time-depth before any kind of intelligent interstellar travel would make it here. That's far more realistic than zooming by casually for some butt-probing, cow slaughter, and grass patterns.

@Amechra with enough code, you could make a program that played DnD as a simple PC. What you couldn't do is make a program that DMd. That's the difference between making routines for a new DotA hero's AI and asking a programmer to make a program that programs sufficiently interesting new dota mechanics (heroes, items, terrain features, etc). The first is doable, if incredibly tedious. Yes, it won't be perfect, but it will usually perform decently well. 2) is up in the air and 3 is right out. You could only sub a computer bot for 1 player. You couldn't, say, run a whole party of them and expect anything beyond simple combat.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on March 13, 2016, 03:11:06 PM
by-the-way, Lee Sedol the Go champ lost 3 straight before getting a resignation from AlphaGo.
Amazing.


Aliens ... yeah I have no idea, let's say maybe 1 per Billion years, and we wouldn't see anything except for broken down tech.  And similar for whatever comes after.  But oh what fun you'll have in an undistinguishable-from-our-reality simulation with my kitty avatar's Tail  playing the Dr.Suess + Cthulhu combo.  Oh what fffphl-fun !!
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: JohnnyMayHymn on March 24, 2016, 03:24:16 AM
maybe if 'D&D' is being used loosely, we could make a game like D&D which is easier for an AI to DM
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on March 25, 2016, 04:31:05 PM
DM-ing is hard, I won't guess as to when.

I know one of the AI's solved Poker, but the program is way too complicated for a Human to try to play.


Monopoly could be their next real target.
The #'s have been known for quite a while.

Programs couldn't handle the social side of bluffing,
and wheeling/dealing with the other players, but
one of the AI Psych-bots might figure some of this out.
What's the magic word :  heuristically? (idk)

The really fancy maths of the mortgages and
the official rules that most people don't actually follow,
are right up Wall Street's alley.  They could probably
get this part long before the Psych-bots work.

 :??? :D
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on April 29, 2016, 04:00:20 PM
 :D
Grandma ... versus ... Driver-less Tesla

(2 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlF2d9E0gB4
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: Jackinthegreen on May 17, 2016, 10:05:09 AM
Getting AI to optimize D&D would take a significant amount of rewriting the rules into something a computer can understand and process efficiently.  I'm somewhat looking forward to that possibility because then it might be something rules creators can look at to make for less ambiguous rules that players don't get into petty squabbles over.

Of note is computers are already getting proficient at analyzing legal documents for various discrepancies and other such things.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on May 17, 2016, 06:22:29 PM
Niiiice.
But it feels rather spirit-of-the-law.
Patent Trolls are doing the same thing, but exclusively for the money.

Apply both ideas to the horrendously convoluted legal situation(s) in India.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on July 07, 2016, 05:08:07 PM
wtf  :???


AI beats top U.S. Air Force tactical air combat experts in combat simulation

source article ---> http://www.omicsgroup.org/journals/fuzzy-logic-based-intelligent-agents-for-unmanned-combat-aerialvehicle-control-2167-0374-1000139.php?aid=67461
~ lite version ---> http://www.kurzweilai.net/ai-beats-top-u-s-air-force-tactical-air-combat-experts-in-combat-simulation

Hey I want one of those $35 compooters, now !!
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: altpersona on July 07, 2016, 05:21:51 PM
Quote
According to IBM, the cloud-delivered enterprise-ready Watson has seen its speed increase 24 times over—a 2,300 percent improvement in performance, and its physical size shrank by 90 percent—from the size of a master bedroom to three stacked pizza boxes.


that was two years ago. next year is should half that...

with luck my grandkids will have a bot as the wage earner for the family.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on July 08, 2016, 04:18:21 PM
Heh don't be that optimistic.
There are jobs that are not Robot-able.
But lots of jobs will fall by the way side soon.

There isn't equal distibution of computing power
and people who have it and can use it productively
are obviously better off.


I mean this is an off-the-cuff old school grumble, but
most phone calls and texts, have no economic value.

I went in to get my final paycheck from Pizza Dorks.
They were having their record busiest hour.
I hopped on the phones for 1 hour. 
Manager couldn't figure how to pay me since I'd already quit.
Decided to give me $35 free food.
I knew that usually they did worker food at 1/2 off.
It was still about 5 times minimum (at the time I though awesome!).
I took about 70 calls, each one about $10 of food = $700 of business.
My labor rate was barely above 2%.
I much later found out, that high teens % was normal.
5 * 5 = 25
I worked at 1/25th the wage I deserved.  Or worse.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: altpersona on July 08, 2016, 04:33:04 PM
i got a side gig that i do just to get out of the house.... it pays 10 to 25 $ for upto about 5 hours. costs me about 5 - 10 $ to do the job... (gas and snacks)

as i pointed out in a recent facebook argument, i have previously been 'responsible for the east coast' (this is both  exaggeration and accurate)... now i work for 2$ hour for 'fun' :/

Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on July 09, 2016, 02:47:01 PM
Dude !


I figure in a very abstract way, that the average
American is worth about $ 1,000,000 .
(given the news of the last few days is upsetting) 
Now hear me out on these two points.

Thing 1
Some kid gets shot by the police.  Nobody cares.
His neighborhood protests (and a smidge violently)
and a local business suffers $ 1,000,000 loss.
That loss inspires the various moneyed interests
to change what they're doing.  As in :  Dang I just
lost a lot of money, something musta gone wrong.

Thing 2
Current minimum wage as a full time job with
bare bones obama-care attached, is worth
approximately $20,000 a year.  If you got an
investment grade Annuity on a cool million
the yearly payout would be $20,000 .
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on July 14, 2016, 03:45:00 PM
Couple of benchmarks got tagged ...

I was in a McD's and an elderly couple were trying to get work info for their grandkid serving overseas.  Manager said "We don't do applications online anymore."

And a 15 year old walked out into rush hour traffic  while playing Pokemon Go and died.
The game is a type of thing similar to something Vernor Vinge wrote about in Rainbows End.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on August 02, 2016, 05:18:25 PM
Website builder that builds itself, with a.i. ---> https://firedrop.ai/
I wonder if it works with this kind of Forum/Boards.

Pokemon Go deserves it's own entry, as the #1 all time launch and world wide.
Not just the dead 15 year old above.
Dude runs into cop car sitting on the side of the road, inverted non-rubbernecking.
62 year old gets stuck in the mud, has to call 911 to be saved from playing.
Pokemon at Auschwitz.
Couple abandons 2 year old, to play.
Player bit by snake he thought was a stick, d&d-ish sticks to snakes eh?
Exercise app records more steps because of playing.
Paroled Sex Offenders barred from playing in NY State.
Olympic gymnast runs up too much roaming in Brazil.
Israeli Army (!) identifies it as a security risk.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on August 15, 2016, 04:15:54 PM
This is pretty darn awesome reality intervention ...

What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physicists
short link w/ cartoon http://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2016/08/13/4521/
slightly longer original https://aeon.co/ideas/what-i-learned-as-a-hired-consultant-for-autodidact-physicists


 :tongue for the record, I took freshman physics 3 times
before the t.a. took me aside and said :
"You know this class has the biggest curve in the whole school, right?"
I got a B minus , time number 4.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 07, 2016, 04:23:55 PM
1 last thing about Pokemon Go
http://www.politico.eu/article/norways-prime-minister-caught-playing-pokemon-go-in-parliament/


(edit --- for a timeline-ish set)
This is what a real Black Swan event looks like
... I guarantee there are some very smart people in the US Military
who are near apoplectic that they don't know where this storm is going.
AccuWeather , PSU Meteorology , the Brits , NOAA , Geico and Hedge Funds too.

The "spaghetti plot" for Matthew, is the various public forecasting services' best models :

Haiti = straight up the coast of the US
Cuba = hook at North Carolina
Miami = chaos
https://i1.wp.com/a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_hurricane_matthew_spaghetti_model_01_mt_161006_4x3_992.jpg
Daytona = loop + chaos
https://localtvwtkr.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/hurricane-stats-spaghetti8.png
Jacksonville = loop
http://www.conservativedailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Hurricane-Matthew-computer-models-10-8-16-0800.jpg
Charleston = hook + chaos
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFfgToduMq-TCWuM6RaFG-3nnaO6r49XDbY9TWSPx0ct9F-NIy
off Outer Banks = direct east then Bahamas to Iceland to Azores to UK to Nova Scotia = they have no idea !!
Turns out, it became Post-tropical while still over North Carolina, they totally on missed that.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4_Pq0LXbeT8v1-6uNBA1ofyBjKqR3CgZDCeDWswl2BDZq4HNdCg
... and dropped off much faster.  The "eye" is (was?) between the 2 black spots directly east of the NC/Va border.
http://i1.wp.com/www.athensgaweather.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/wv-animated.gif?fit=225%2C150

Meanwhile Hurricane Nicole is about 1000 miles east, just sitting there, spinning this whole time and going no where.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 10, 2016, 05:26:25 PM
Editted above into a timeline.

Weather Channel even did a story on how far off the models were.
They haven't put it onto their video links page yet.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 10, 2016, 05:37:57 PM
Meanwhile Hurricane Nicole is about 1000 miles east, just sitting there, spinning this whole time and going no where.
I told it to take a Ready Action and see if anything survived first.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 10, 2016, 08:26:16 PM
Meanwhile Hurricane Nicole is about 1000 miles east, just sitting there, spinning this whole time and going no where.
I told it to take a Ready Action and see if anything survived first.
:lol :clap
Title: Re: 1st Chess , now Go , when D&D ?
Post by: oslecamo on October 10, 2016, 11:44:47 PM
personally I look forward to the day they learn to play Halo and call us all noobs

Trivia, but FPS is actually something AIs are already darn good at.

Too good actually, since an unrestricted bot would land perfect headshots with every bullet faster than any humie could react. We would never win.

The challenge in making a FPS AI is actually dumbing it down to humie levels, which is much harder than it sounds as you need both to hit that sweet humie reflexes spot while adding some random behaviour to look "natural".

Ditto for fighting games AIs.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 11, 2016, 04:58:30 PM
hmm ... I'm remembering something about Robots that look too closely like Humans, but that it freaks people out too much.  (might be able to find a source if I looked)  ... I wonder if having a Robot do other things ultra close to "humie" capacity, would also be too freaky.

Meanwhile Hurricane Nicole is about 1000 miles east, just sitting there, spinning this whole time and going no where.
I told it to take a Ready Action and see if anything survived first.
:lol :clap

 :lmao


**

'Nother anomaly, some people got evacuated from the NC coast
and where they got evac'd to, ALSO had to be a rescue evac.

C'mon North Carolina, South Carolina didn't have that  problem !


**

1 more spaghetti plot, technically still about Matthew, not Nicole spinning down there.
http://cdn.tegna-media.com/wltx/weather/spaghetti_plots.jpg
... right now they can't agree where it is, let alone where it's going.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 11, 2016, 08:51:51 PM
hmm ... I'm remembering something about Robots that look too closely like Humans, but that it freaks people out too much.  (might be able to find a source if I looked)  ... I wonder if having a Robot do other things ultra close to "humie" capacity, would also be too freaky.
Uncanny Valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley) (or if you prefer going down the tvtropes rabbit hole (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UncannyValley))
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 12, 2016, 04:20:58 PM
Bingo !

Thanks  :cool
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on November 22, 2016, 05:53:50 PM
Svck on this , Scottie !!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/this-rocket-engine-breaks-a-law-of-physics-but-a-nasa-test-says-it-works-anyway/ar-AAkDdUL?li=BBnbcA1

(https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/scotty1.jpg)
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 08, 2017, 05:00:22 PM
Shorty update ...

Alpha Go 2.0 is the #1 rated Go player already.  It's over.


A very specific version of Poker was solved in early 2015.
A related very restricted version of Poker the TV tournament style, has been beating the Poker pros that are helping Carnegie Mellon U program it.
It can't handle 3+ players yet, too many combinations.
And it has a hard time with uncertain info ... which it bypasses by being way better at random behavior than people.
Right now, it pretty much can beat anybody in the late stages of a hand, so the pros respond with more aggressive style early in a hand.
Who knows if this might work with other types of poker.

Poker is on NOTICE.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on March 13, 2017, 05:30:32 PM
U of Alberta's Cepheus poker a.i. has expanded into No-Limit ... but
2 players only and 4 rounds only.  Interestingly their approach is quite different from CM's.
idk any  details of how a Nash Equilibrium style works , vs. CM's pile of algorithms.

Anybody wanna chime in with a Nash Equilibrium for Freshman Calc 1"dummies" explanation?

**

EMOJI's   :( don't work.  I'm sad.
I'll have to refrain until a much simpler and platform (!) shared batch, are mustered.
Different email feeds and boards and graphics, change the appearance of smileys enough,
that people will often misjudge say the happy to sad scale on a 1 to 10, by an Average of 2.

No wonder nobody understood what my kitty avatar was saying ...
(except my kitty avatar's Tail  which obviously has it's own agenda).

Go to sleep  :hide  :flirt
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on August 04, 2017, 05:09:43 PM
Facebook A.I. creates it's own language.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley/2017/07/31/facebook-ai-creates-its-own-language-in-creepy-preview-of-our-potential-future/#2ebe4713292c

It's too bad they decided to shut it down, instead of trying to figure out what it was doing.  Or learning how to "talk" to it, and ask it itself what it was doing.
etc
Of course the dude writing this took the Terminator will kill us all angle (as I suppose FB did perhaps reluctantly idk).

I just finished a short story about Dogs being awakened, and they figure out that dogs are being euthanized at shelters, so they start being dog-errists (if you catch my drift).  And they didn't all live happily ever after.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: Nanshork on August 04, 2017, 05:28:45 PM
I just finished a short story about Dogs being awakened, and they figure out that dogs are being euthanized at shelters, so they start being dog-errists (if you catch my drift).  And they didn't all live happily ever after.

There's a Rick & Morty episode about that, except it's about dogs getting fixed instead of euthanized.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on September 08, 2017, 03:15:05 PM
late Ha! response to that Nansh.

**

Alpha Go as it turns out, had a bug they discovered something like 5 days before the big roll-out, and it was only fixed after in Alpha Go 2.0.   There's a documentary film about it somewhere ...

**

Since I paid a lot of attention last year, to that major Hurricane ... Irma is really bad.  The forecasts have been way better, like nearly spot on.  Don't know if it's luck that the steering was much easier to figure out, or a whole bunch of Somebodies got a big algorithm + processing upgrade.  Barclays (!) said this would be their largest loss ever very early on and probably others too, and they've got all that wall street money processing and forecasting access before everyone else.  Of course the forecasters missed the 1.5x World record max winds timespan.  Still have some 86oF / 30oC water to power the thing.
I have a rarely interacted with Cousin, who'll get a few hours of 100+ mph wind no matter which way the storm goes, and an old bff's ex + kids who'll get perhaps worse maybe storm surge too.  Sweating small bullet here, hopefully their faux McMansions were up to codes.  Bunch of totally wrecked islands as a prelude, is no comfort at all ... Sint Maartens, Barbuda, Caicos, Brit Virgins.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on October 15, 2017, 03:54:09 PM
Skeptical Inquirer mag had an article on ditching Argument Fallacies.
It isn't available online yet, perhaps another 3 or 4 months.
The authors did get a more officially serious version published, idk where or access.

Here's a kernel of it random find :
http://dailynous.com/2017/06/15/philosophers-care-much-fallacies/
(just noticed there's a link in there to a longer post)
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 07, 2017, 05:06:22 PM
here We GO


A generalized version AlphaZero just got put out.
It learns on it's own, without previous human sources.
It beat the best a.i. versions of Shogi in 2 hours , Chess in 4 hours , and "AlphaGo Zero" in 8.

Fancy paper ---> https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.01815
News writeup A ---> https://venturebeat.com/2017/12/06/google-deepmind-repurposed-its-alphago-ai-to-beat-the-best-chess-and-shogi-bots/
News writeup B ---> https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16741106/deepmind-ai-chess-alphazero-shogi-go

I don't pretend to understand ... but ... anything "quantize-able" (to paraphrase PLZ) about d&d, it'll get'r done.  Maybe soon too.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: Archon on December 08, 2017, 09:09:33 AM
Interesting. I wonder how much these systems invent their own internal meta-game, and if that effects how good they are at dealing with some more human-intuitive scenarios? Independent of the different strengths and weaknesses of the human and computer player.

The problem with getting a AI to play D&D is that D&D is fundamentally poorly defined. Both in rules (which often require rulings or disambiguations) and in objectives (which are kinda ??? in computation terms). Once computers have empathy and natural language and speech ect. down (i.e. notime soon), they will be able to take a crack at D&D.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 08, 2017, 04:50:13 PM
Stuff like i.p.proofing and anything simple math like a +1 blanket ability vs a +2 small use ability , is definitely fair game for a.i.

But yeah, so much of the game is semantics, english language logic + usage quirks, leadership, divinations, etc.


Chess based sites now have up longer write-ups about the AlphaZero games.
Tossing so much 1000+ year tradition aside, for tactics unimagined until these games happened.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on January 06, 2019, 03:37:56 PM
Star Talk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, had a good one.

His astro co-host Charles Liu said (~paraphrasing) :   "I do open book exams, I do open internet exams.  We have to be smarter than a google search."

I found this tweet :
Charles Liu @chuckliu 26 Nov 2018
Are my exams really open internet? Ask my students... https://www.nationalgeographic.com/tv/watch/57842686b7482a6c6684e8d534b838cb/ …
links to season 5 episode 3.


I'll pat myself on the back then ... because I'm at least as smart as his freshmen (the googling part).
 :D
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on July 19, 2019, 05:05:29 PM
Elon Musk's white paper about Neuro-link to the brain.

Pretty picture on page 7 is a rat/mouse with the 3072 channels connected.
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6204648/Neuralink-White-Paper.pdf
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on September 22, 2019, 02:24:32 PM
.
53 Qubits
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/rumors-hint-that-google-has-accomplished-quantum-supremacy
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: altpersona on September 22, 2019, 03:16:42 PM
already surpassed w. 72?
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on September 24, 2019, 04:58:50 PM
Maybe, sort of, not yet, idk.

“To our knowledge, this experiment marks the first computation that can only be performed on a quantum processor,” the Google researchers wrote.
Bolding is mine.  Curious milestone. 

This site claims to have snagged a copy of the original paper :
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=52862
... very dense with jargon and detail.

Subtleties are mostly lost on me (at this point),
but Math had a proof a few years back, that couldn't
be hand checked rather had to be computer processed.
I presume this is on the same conceptual trajectory.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: altpersona on September 24, 2019, 05:13:28 PM
yeah, the whole thing is up in the air
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: Keldar on February 29, 2020, 04:34:50 AM
When will then be now?  Soon. (https://www.wired.com/story/forget-chess-real-challenge-teaching-ai-play-dandd/) 
(soft paywall)

Ok, not soon.  But they are trying to make a computer play D&D.  Hopefully they don't teach it to play CN.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: Nanashi on February 29, 2020, 11:46:55 AM
The fundemental problem with teaching AI to play dnd is that, since there is a strong luck based element, it's not solvable like other games.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 29, 2020, 02:54:46 PM
 :love ... danka Keldar.


The various links pulled from the googlecache :

https://laramartin.net/

Dungeons and DQNs https://www.cc.gatech.edu/~riedl/pubs/int18.pdf

Story Realization https://aaai.org/Papers/AAAI/2020GB/AAAI-AmmanabroluP.6647.pdf

https://homes.cs.washington.edu/~nasmith/

better language models (with nifty graphic) https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/

https://twitter.com/nickwalton00?lang=en

https://aidungeon.io/


... well that's plenty for now.
 :)
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: Keldar on March 01, 2020, 02:56:10 AM
The fundemental problem with teaching AI to play dnd is that, since there is a strong luck based element, it's not solvable like other games.
Which is a good reason to work on it.
Title: Re: 1st Chess , then Go , now US Air Force , when D&D ?
Post by: oslecamo on March 01, 2020, 05:14:24 AM
The fundemental problem with teaching AI to play dnd is that, since there is a strong luck based element, it's not solvable like other games.

Although luck element is a problem, it's hardly the most fundamental one with teaching AI to play D&D. First you need to deal with:
1-D&D rules are full of holes. Our human minds will just unconsciously fill them in, but an AI would go "DOES NOT COMPUTER ERROR BSOD" at the drop of a hat.
2-If you somehow overcome the above, now you need to deal with all the infinite loops and borked combos. The AI will answer every D&D problem with "I use pun-pun lol" assuming they don't find something even more OP.