Author Topic: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic  (Read 7362 times)

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« on: July 21, 2016, 02:19:01 PM »
After years of playing Dark Souls and it's sibling games I've found myself fond of the way shields are handled in the series and have been considering a mechanic similar to it. Specifically, in addition to the shield's innate AC bonus, shields would provide a round-to-round "temp HP" pool that helps deal with incoming attacks.

The issues I've come across stems from the nature of 3.5 combat:
  • At the lowest levels setting this pool to a number as low as 5 dramatically increases the sluggishness of an encounter if the enemies use shields, even for an optimized melee character.
  • The above point makes being a low-level non-Martial Adept worse, unless there were a reliable way to bypass the shields.
  • Doing the above makes shields less valuable for melee PCs, as even the most basic of sentient creatures would know to do it (depending on AoO penalties).
  • At the higher levels, even with a good scaling mechanic behind the shields' pool, they would eventually be outclassed by the raw damage output of high-CR enemies.
  • I'm having difficulties addressing how shields like this would help against spells, if at all.
  • The rocket tag nature of high-level play makes this option a bad idea, as it detracts from melees' ability to deal damage.
  • Currently, the best use for a shield is as a weapon itself.

Ideas are welcome, I could really use them.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 02:21:03 PM by Sinfire Titan »
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2016, 02:29:57 PM »
Maybe grab the cover mechanic and let people use an immediate action to break LoE/LoS using their shield? In terms of how they can help with spells. Also having them grant Evasion/Mettle, etc. The knight holding off a dragon's breath with his shield is an iconic image back to George and the Dragon, if not before.

Offline Samwise

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2016, 03:23:28 PM »
I've considered revising shield and armor a lot for D20. The question is, how far do you want to go?

Depending on how far you want to go, I'd suggest:
1. Shields are made of wood. They can have metal trim, but they are primarily made of wood and function as such, with no other distinctions.

This is mostly for "realism", and is not particularly critical except perhaps for druids. It also connects to option 6.

2. Shields come in 4 sizes:
Very Light (Buckler) AC +1, +2 vs arrows
Light (Light) AC +2, +4 vs arrows
Medium (Heavy) AC +3, +6 vs arrows
Heavy (Extreme) AC +4, +8 vs arrows

Tower shields are the actual portable barriers described, providing cover. You may not use one in melee.

With this, shields contribute significantly to defense, which they should.

3. Shields have two grips:
Hand: Ready as move action, drop as free action; grants improved shield bash
Arm: Ready with your armor, drop as move action; grants improved bull rush

This enhances the weapon function.

4. (big) With some feat, shields provide arrow deflection with extra uses based on shield size and Dexterity.

Even more defense. Shields walls were a tactic for a reason.

5. (very big) With some improved shield feat, shields can provide outright concealment. If you do this, regular armor should provide DR, particularly plate armor.

Still more defense. Never mind a hit point pool, shields mean you just plain don't get hit.

6. (very big) Shields are "consumable", like ammunition. They last 4 encounters then you need to replace them. You get 10 shields per individual magic item creation, and must make provisions to carry replacements. (Don't forget to adjust masterwork price.)

More realism. It also has the effect of opening shields up for "cheap" power ups like ammunition, especially if combined with make whole and the like. Get one shield with a +5 total enhancement then repair it after every battle.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2016, 12:48:23 AM »
I've considered revising shield and armor a lot for D20. The question is, how far do you want to go?

Depending on how far you want to go, I'd suggest:
1. Shields are made of wood. They can have metal trim, but they are primarily made of wood and function as such, with no other distinctions.

This is mostly for "realism", and is not particularly critical except perhaps for druids. It also connects to option 6.

Sorry to say this, but I have no interest in "realism" in D&D. This is a game where a psychic brain-eating tentacle man reproduces by sticking a leech in someone's ear and we have literal gods walking the world on a regular basis.

Quote
2. Shields come in 4 sizes:
Very Light (Buckler) AC +1, +2 vs arrows
Light (Light) AC +2, +4 vs arrows
Medium (Heavy) AC +3, +6 vs arrows
Heavy (Extreme) AC +4, +8 vs arrows

Numbers are numbers, not fully meaningful in such small quantities.

Quote
Tower shields are the actual portable barriers described, providing cover. You may not use one in melee.

This is what I'm talking about. Why can't a mundane warrior, capable of literally kill a Great Wyrm in under 6 seconds (and yes, we have done the math on this; it's very easy if he can get it into melee combat) not use a tower shield in melee combat?

Quote
3. Shields have two grips:
Hand: Ready as move action, drop as free action; grants improved shield bash
Arm: Ready with your armor, drop as move action; grants improved bull rush

Decent idea.

Quote
This enhances the weapon function.

4. (big) With some feat, shields provide arrow deflection with extra uses based on shield size and Dexterity.

I don't feel everything needs to be a feat. Parrying, even ranged attacks, is something a trained warrior should be able to do.

Quote
Even more defense. Shields walls were a tactic for a reason.

5. (very big) With some improved shield feat, shields can provide outright concealment. If you do this, regular armor should provide DR, particularly plate armor.

Armor providing DR is something else I've been working on.

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Still more defense. Never mind a hit point pool, shields mean you just plain don't get hit.

The point of a shield was two-fold: Deflecting blows, and stopping direct hits. If you've ever seen staged combat, blocking any sort of hit with those prop shields isn't what you're supposed to do; they train you to deflect it to keep the props from getting too damaged.

In real combat shields softened direct hits, but didn't negate it outright. Arms could be broken very easily regardless of how well-made the shield was.

Quote
6. (very big) Shields are "consumable", like ammunition. They last 4 encounters then you need to replace them. You get 10 shields per individual magic item creation, and must make provisions to carry replacements. (Don't forget to adjust masterwork

This is an idea, but not one that plays very nicely with D&D. WBL is stretched thin for front-line characters (a weapon is already 1/5 of the GP you get), and it replenishes very slowly. Back in the old days of GiantITP there was a huge debate about if WBL was an effective means of substituting for class features (the rundown is that it can be, provided you don't use consumables to do so).

If there were a cheap (IE free) way to repair broken shields this would be more viable. I'll keep it in mind.

Maybe grab the cover mechanic and let people use an immediate action to break LoE/LoS using their shield? In terms of how they can help with spells. Also having them grant Evasion/Mettle, etc. The knight holding off a dragon's breath with his shield is an iconic image back to George and the Dragon, if not before.

Good ideas. Cover kinda already does that (improved cover effectively grants improved evasion to you), but having shields do that is a nice idea if a little tricky to implement.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2016, 02:13:12 AM »
What if shields "upgraded" Evasion, in addition to giving an AC bonus?

Shield, but no Evasion: Make a Reflex save as if you had Evasion, but the Shield takes the damage on a successful save.
Shield, with Evasion: Make a Reflex save as if you had Improved Evasion, but the shield takes the damage too on a failed save.
Shield, with Improved Evasion: Your shield takes the damage on a failed Reflex save instead of you.

Maybe make it take an Immediate Action unless you pay the feat tax?

That, plus letting you turn attacks made against you into Sunder attempts against your shield, would really make shields worth it. Now, making Sword & Board more viable is a bit harder...
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Offline altpersona

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2016, 09:54:51 AM »
in the irl 1e osr game im in, we use a 'splinter' rule.

if your are using a shield, you can choose to 'splinter' the shield to negate A hit.

its now common to carry a spare...  iirc, it can only be done once per encounter.

would be totally pointless at higher levels, but no one has made it past 2nd level yet...
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2016, 10:02:35 AM »
in the irl 1e osr game im in, we use a 'splinter' rule.

if your are using a shield, you can choose to 'splinter' the shield to negate A hit.

its now common to carry a spare...  iirc, it can only be done once per encounter.

would be totally pointless at higher levels, but no one has made it past 2nd level yet...
Hmm... that's an interesting idea. To make it work at higher levels, maybe say that the shield isn't destroyed but is instead damaged, rendering it unusable for a second "interception", but allowing it to be repaired with a skill check or Mending spell later. It would still be more useful at the lower levels, but that's when you're more likely to die from a random crit anyway... so that's a fine result to me. I'd limit this to working only for light shields and up, to prevent the arcanists from strapping on mithril bucklers for some "free" defense. :p And yeah, make it an immediate action, giving those non-casters something to do with those (and incurring an opportunity cost for everyone else to use it).
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2016, 11:00:46 AM »
in the irl 1e osr game im in, we use a 'splinter' rule.

if your are using a shield, you can choose to 'splinter' the shield to negate A hit.

its now common to carry a spare...  iirc, it can only be done once per encounter.

would be totally pointless at higher levels, but no one has made it past 2nd level yet...

Aww, I was going to bring up Shields Shall Be Splintered!

My favorite variant is in combination with an abstracted henchman system:
• In combat, henchmen either give you an AC boost or an attack boost.
• If they're really loyal, you can splinter them like a shield.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2016, 12:06:03 PM »
love it

im bringing the 'henchmen splinter' up at our next session  :lmao
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2016, 01:24:00 PM »
This is what I'm talking about. Why can't a mundane warrior, capable of literally kill a Great Wyrm in under 6 seconds (and yes, we have done the math on this; it's very easy if he can get it into melee combat) not use a tower shield in melee combat?

Because what is called a "tower shield" is not built or used like a regular shield.
It is usually carried by a separate person for a crossbowman, who sets it up, then hides behind with the crossbowman and a loader as all three work as a team to fire.

http://myarmoury.com/feature_shield.html
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2711

A large shield that covers a good portion of the body, like a Roman or Spartan shield, is closer to what is defined later as an "extreme shield", which requires an exotic weapon proficiency, and cannot be used to shield bash. It shouldn't require the feat, and should be able to bash.

Certainly you could "use" one in melee combat, but it would better be covered as an improvised weapon than a standard piece of equipment.

Quote
I don't feel everything needs to be a feat. Parrying, even ranged attacks, is something a trained warrior should be able to do.
Quote

Actually, I agree. I thought giving it for free might be a bit too much.
For that matter, the same with having them provide a miss chance. They just should from basic training.

Quote
The point of a shield was two-fold: Deflecting blows, and stopping direct hits. If you've ever seen staged combat, blocking any sort of hit with those prop shields isn't what you're supposed to do; they train you to deflect it to keep the props from getting too damaged.

Thus having them provide a miss chance rather than an armor bonus.

Quote
In real combat shields softened direct hits, but didn't negate it outright. Arms could be broken very easily regardless of how well-made the shield was.

Which would be a damage pool as you initially asked about.
Of course a hand grip means not getting your arm broken because you don't take impacts braced on your arm to begin with.

Quote
This is an idea, but not one that plays very nicely with D&D. WBL is stretched thin for front-line characters (a weapon is already 1/5 of the GP you get), and it replenishes very slowly. Back in the old days of GiantITP there was a huge debate about if WBL was an effective means of substituting for class features (the rundown is that it can be, provided you don't use consumables to do so).

Well, as I regularly note - use more NPC-equipped creatures in encounters, and WBL will "replenish" VERY rapidly. The hard part will just be carrying all the replacement shields.

Quote
If there were a cheap (IE free) way to repair broken shields this would be more viable. I'll keep it in mind.

Beyond magic, I wouldn't expect any free way to repair a broken magic shield.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2016, 01:40:46 PM »
Because what is called a "tower shield" is not built or used like a regular shield.
It is usually carried by a separate person for a crossbowman, who sets it up, then hides behind with the crossbowman and a loader as all three work as a team to fire.

http://myarmoury.com/feature_shield.html
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2711

Let's be honest here - that warrior can probably carry that tower shield one-handed without really feeling the weight.
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2016, 03:13:38 PM »
Let's be honest here - that warrior can probably carry that tower shield one-handed without really feeling the weight.

*shrugs*

And yet they didn't.
To the point of paying, and feeding, someone to do it.

Perhaps it is just plain heavier and clumsier than it looks?

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2016, 03:27:20 PM »
Let's be honest here - that warrior can probably carry that tower shield one-handed without really feeling the weight.

*shrugs*

And yet they didn't.
To the point of paying, and feeding, someone to do it.

Perhaps it is just plain heavier and clumsier than it looks?

Nor did they fight dragons. History is nice and all, but this is D&D, not Medieval Europe Simulator.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2016, 04:42:41 PM »
Let's be honest here - that warrior can probably carry that tower shield one-handed without really feeling the weight.

*shrugs*

And yet they didn't.
To the point of paying, and feeding, someone to do it.

Perhaps it is just plain heavier and clumsier than it looks?

Well, that's because those people in real life had maybe Strength 14, at a stretch? Meanwhile Mr. Dragonslayer is rocking superhuman strength and toughness, and can dodge bullets.
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2016, 07:24:01 PM »
Nor did they fight dragons. History is nice and all, but this is D&D, not Medieval Europe Simulator.

Well, that's because those people in real life had maybe Strength 14, at a stretch? Meanwhile Mr. Dragonslayer is rocking superhuman strength and toughness, and can dodge bullets.

Point: The world record for deadlifting is about 1,000lbs. An Orc can do that as early as 1st level if he puts 18 into Str (although he can only stagger around). By the time his Str hits 27 (4th Level + Rage, if he goes Barbarian) he's able to carry that as a heavy load. Tower shields weigh 45lbs; that orc can use one as a light load and still have room for other equipment and that weight isn't realistic at all: the heaviest shields weighed around 22lbs at most. The shields in the PHB are horribly overweight (Bucklers weigh as much as a Light Wood, but the Light Steel is only one pound heavier and the Heavy Wood is 10lbs!).

Applying realism to D&D makes no sense if you assume that mid-level characters are doing things even remotely realistically, as the shenanigans start at 1st level and keep getting worse.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2016, 07:46:44 PM »
move along, post in the wrong thread...  :bigeyes
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2016, 09:59:58 PM »
Applying realism to D&D makes no sense if you assume that mid-level characters are doing things even remotely realistically, as the shenanigans start at 1st level and keep getting worse.

Well, that's because those people in real life had maybe Strength 14, at a stretch? Meanwhile Mr. Dragonslayer is rocking superhuman strength and toughness, and can dodge bullets.

There is a point at which holding that much weight on your arm for a battle is simply unreasonable, no matter "gamist" you get.
The same for using a minigun as a longarm and expecting not to be blown off your feet by recoil, despite what happens in movies.

If you don't want to be "that" simulationist, fine.
But past a certain point, saying you don't want "realism" in a game because "fantasy", and you break not just the ability to have any baseline for discussing any rules material, but any level of suspension of disbelief and immersion.

As it goes, looking to improve shields with some damage absorbtion mechanic IS looking to make them more simulationist, because they were not designed to be "that" realistic in D&D in the first place. That's why so many people always wind up looking for ways to "make them better".

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2016, 11:59:02 PM »
Applying realism to D&D makes no sense if you assume that mid-level characters are doing things even remotely realistically, as the shenanigans start at 1st level and keep getting worse.

Well, that's because those people in real life had maybe Strength 14, at a stretch? Meanwhile Mr. Dragonslayer is rocking superhuman strength and toughness, and can dodge bullets.

There is a point at which holding that much weight on your arm for a battle is simply unreasonable, no matter "gamist" you get.
The same for using a minigun as a longarm and expecting not to be blown off your feet by recoil, despite what happens in movies.

If you don't want to be "that" simulationist, fine.
But past a certain point, saying you don't want "realism" in a game because "fantasy", and you break not just the ability to have any baseline for discussing any rules material, but any level of suspension of disbelief and immersion.

As it goes, looking to improve shields with some damage absorbtion mechanic IS looking to make them more simulationist, because they were not designed to be "that" realistic in D&D in the first place. That's why so many people always wind up looking for ways to "make them better".

You are using realism as an excuse to limit the system, whereas the simulationism I'm looking for is meant to improve a mechanic widely regarded as underpowered. Acceptable breaks are what they will be, but nerfing one aspect of an underpowered system just because "that's how it works IRL" isn't good design.

Not allowing a tower shield in melee combat is one such nerf. Realistically speaking, when have you ever seen a player use a tower shield in your campaigns? There so little support for them that the only thing I've ever seen is theoretical abuse involving using their cover mechanic to make a Hide check, and the using Sleight of Hand to hide the shield itself.
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2016, 02:17:03 AM »
You are using realism as an excuse to limit the system, whereas the simulationism I'm looking for is meant to improve a mechanic widely regarded as underpowered. Acceptable breaks are what they will be, but nerfing one aspect of an underpowered system just because "that's how it works IRL" isn't good design.

No, I'm not.
I'm using realism to explain why a particular term in the game is silly, which combined with certain other elements in the game explains why certain things work the way they do. (That is, "Why does a tower shield have such restrictions on its use?")
I am using that, and other realistic elements, to suggest methods of improving an underpowered system, which to a large extent is so underpowered precisely because it is NOT realistic.

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Not allowing a tower shield in melee combat is one such nerf.

Read what I wrote again:
The "heavy" shield, formerly the "extreme" shield, takes the place of the tower shield in terms of AC, gains the ability to do pushes or punches, does not have an attack penalty, AND does not require a special weapon proficiency, free for some, exotic otherwise.
And that's not including adding in the additional arrow deflection and miss chance concepts.
In what way does that qualify as a nerf?

Is being able to get total cover from weapon attacks only at the cost of being unable to attack really that awesome an ability?
Is it not compensated for by everything else, plus the +4 to AC against arrows?

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Realistically speaking, when have you ever seen a player use a tower shield in your campaigns?

To avoid a trap by claiming full cover behind the shield.
And I think a spellcaster used one once to go "turtle" to avoid getting obliterated by an ogre.

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There so little support for them that the only thing I've ever seen is theoretical abuse involving using their cover mechanic to make a Hide check, and the using Sleight of Hand to hide the shield itself.

I never saw that one.

Of course if the tower shield is so irrelevant to use, why get so upset about deleting it from the equipment list? If nobody uses them, how can it be missed?

But . . .
What does that have to do with looking at shields, finding them underpowered, wondering why, looking as how shields were really used, and saying "well, tower shields as written really weren't for melee, but large shields should provide much more cover and still be usable as weapons"?

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Concept check: Shields with built-in DR mechanic
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2016, 02:41:12 AM »
But . . .
What does that have to do with looking at shields, finding them underpowered, wondering why, looking as how shields were really used, and saying "well, tower shields as written really weren't for melee, but large shields should provide much more cover and still be usable as weapons"?

Because I'm not looking at how they are used in real life. I'm using a video game as a reference point. I never said that tower shields would provide cover, just that Strat's comment was a decent idea and may be implemented. And I never stated that "tower shields as written weren't really for melee". In fact, the only class in the game that gets automatic proficiency with them is the Fighter and that the shields themselves were not given enough support to be worth a damn.

Now, onto a few other points:

Quote
Read what I wrote again:
The "heavy" shield, formerly the "extreme" shield, takes the place of the tower shield in terms of AC, gains the ability to do pushes or punches, does not have an attack penalty, AND does not require a special weapon proficiency, free for some, exotic otherwise.
And that's not including adding in the additional arrow deflection and miss chance concepts.
In what way does that qualify as a nerf?

Is being able to get total cover from weapon attacks only at the cost of being unable to attack really that awesome an ability?
Is it not compensated for by everything else, plus the +4 to AC against arrows?

Because you've taken the Tower Shield itself and given it different abilities that are worse than what you are suggesting for the heavy shield. IE, this line:

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Tower shields are the actual portable barriers described, providing cover. You may not use one in melee.

While your suggestion does have a "tower shield" substitute, you took the term and applied it to something else. You caused confusion to at least three people by doing so, all for the sake of giving tower shields a realistic representation.

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Of course if the tower shield is so irrelevant to use, why get so upset about deleting it from the equipment list? If nobody uses them, how can it be missed?

Because that defeats the point of fixing them.
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