I am interested. Probably would build a "how many followers can I get" build, because it is pretty rare to see Leadership even allowed, let alone encouraged.
While we are on this topic, I could use some clarification.
1. You have two class lists, A and B. "Base character classes will be chosen from a pair of lists as seen below." Does that mean one from A and one from B, or that one must choose A or B and get both from that list?
2. "No templates greater than LA+1". How does this interact with Savage Progressions, which divide up templates into one-level increments?
3. "average per level, rounded down". Does this mean that a d6 hit die produces 3 hit points, or does it mean that a d6 hit die produces 3.5 hit points, and if you have a .5 after adding your hit points, you round down? In other words, is it rounded down for every hit die, or is the final total rounded down?
4. What is an "anti-feat"? We cannot take Chicken-Infested as Commoner is not on the class list, and I don't think there are any other flaws that give a benefit to the PC, so I am wondering what you mean by this.
Alternatively my "one allowed homebrew item" could just be, like, one of Oslecamo's lycanthrope racial classes to make it easier by not having to deal with LA.
Probably Druid/Beastmaster/Beast Heart Adept. Maybe more, but those are all I know off the top of my head for animal companion purposes without researching. Cohorts would be awakened animals, likely using incarnum to save me some trouble in equipping them.
...Probably Druid/Beastmaster/Beast Heart Adept...
This looks really interesting.
I would like to see about joining.
Initial build plan would be Swordsage//Dread Necromancer
or maybe a Bard//Dread Necromancer
Question: If a Dread Necromancer makes a skeleton and has room in his undead leadership pool for it, could he transfer it from his animate dead pool to his leadership pool?
Remember that BHA doesn't stack w/ Druid/Beastmaster, and druid ain't on the gestalt list. Try to get BHA on the other side of the gestalt from the beastmaster.
Perhaps the Simple bard (http://dndsrd.net/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-bard) variant would be a good base? Have Variant chained barbarian with Wild Shape (Trade Fast Movement for Pounce (CC), Trade Rage et. al. for Fav Enemy and Archery Combat Style, then Trade Combat Style for fast movement and Wild shape Small and Medium only) opposing the Bard/Beastmaster? 9th gestalt: Simple Variant Bard 5/Beastmaster 4//WS Barbarian 5/BHA 4.
No lycanthropy required, per se, if Drammor doesn't balk at the Variant chaining.
I thought that class list was what the followers/cohorts were restricted to?
I'm on the fence about throwing my hat in, but for consideration I'd like to put this Marshal homebrew overhaul (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=13687.0) under consideration.
One homebrew item? Well... (https://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior) :p
Having the class without its supporting material wouldn't work for me unfortunately, I just hate the base Marshal class.
Anything that I would want would involve homebrew upgrades to the tier 4 classes or extensive Pathfinder material so I'm going to bow out and leave this to people who are more easily inspired by the constraints.
- Optimization Level: Moderate. No broken/clearly overpowered combinations, infinite loops or...
Step 1: take the Dragon Cohort feat. Dragon cohort is treated as -3 ECL for the purpose of cohort level restrictions.Don't work w/o DM fiat in your favor; the feat uses a closed list of dragons that you can get.
Step 2: get a Dragonwrought Kobold as your cohort (or any other LA+0 Dragon-type creature). He will, in fact, be higher level than you are.
Step 3: have the Dragonwrought Kobold take the Dragon Cohort feat
Repeat ad nauseum
It sure would be nice to see someone really focusing on their army.
I could play an Orc Warlord instead with Extra Followers and a Cohort as a Savage Bard-barian and/or Warrior Skald dip (to deal with that pesky after-Rage fatigue) and Dragon Cohort for an appropriately fear-inducing mount? Maybe throw in Improved Cohort and if you'd allow it, Pathfinder's Extra Cohort? Having x4 the usual number of followers may require extra generals to keep the ranks from getting too unruly. Maybe put a Warchanter somewhere in those cohorts... And Dragon-Fire Inspiration..... Would the Bloodlines variant you're letting us use count for fulfilling DFI's prereq? :D
Yes, I can play a Warhammer orc horde if you need more army stuff :p
Edit: Would Power of Faerun's Leadership variant stuff be cool? Off the top of my head it's got stuff for not being capped at a 25 leadership score, pre-epic, exclusively in regards to your access to followers.
Edit: My 1 homebrew item request is Os' Savage Trait (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=526.0) :devil
But here's a question... which church are all of you representing?
It sure would be nice to see someone really focusing on their army.
Baboons? Iiieeyyyessss? Why does this feel like a trap?
Okay, how about Paragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?)?
I just have to give up my flaws :(
Umm... I'm reconsidering my Interest Check roll: I can get about 5 Cohorts/sub-cohorts, with tons of followers, and if I can (ab)use Necropolitan, I don't have to feed (*some of) them...
Although I failed my Int check regarding the fact that many Leadership affecting feats require... Leadership. What's the time-frame on game start?
Also, what's the stat value for followers, 32 PB, the NPC Tables from the DMG, or what?
Okay, how about Paragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?)?
I just have to give up my flaws :(
Alright, then if this were to get off the ground, we'd need to agree on the Church.
Anyone interested in re-fluffing to 'Team Good' since Drammor said this is a 'Save the World' campaign? How about the church of the Ruby Lady? Wee Jas seems like she'd want to oppose an invasion, is likely fairly pragmatic, and she's OK with undead ain't she?
I could play an Orc Warlord instead with Extra Followers and a Cohort as a Savage Bard-barian and/or Warrior Skald dip (to deal with that pesky after-Rage fatigue) and Dragon Cohort for an appropriately fear-inducing mount? Maybe throw in Improved Cohort and if you'd allow it, Pathfinder's Extra Cohort? Having x4 the usual number of followers may require extra generals to keep the ranks from getting too unruly. Maybe put a Warchanter somewhere in those cohorts... And Dragon-Fire Inspiration..... Would the Bloodlines variant you're letting us use count for fulfilling DFI's prereq? :D
@Drammor: Are Cohorts actually allowed to take Leadership? If so, that's not something I'd have ever realized. I'd love to give my bard Undead Leadership and his own legion of gravediggers :lmao
Yay, thank you for Paragon~ I made that post on my phone so I guess the linking stuff didn't work out right >.>
I'll figure out a build order when I get home tonight.
Heh, that sounds fun. I was only considering risking one extra layer of leadership.
I realized I dont have levels for side b before paragon kicks in...Since you have ToB on side b list, would path of war be acceptable as well? Likely a warlord
The real question is if followers can take Leadership. There isn't any rule against it anywhere, but technically, followers having Leadership could lead to an infinite Leadership chain (where "infinite" is "until the DM throws a book at you", of course).
...another suitable undead-themed deity is the Evening Glory, from Libris Mortis page 17, the goddess of undying love.
(http://www.colton3d.com/syrawiki/images/thumb/e/eb/Evening_Glory_Symbol.jpg/200px-Evening_Glory_Symbol.jpg)...
The real question is if followers can take Leadership. There isn't any rule against it anywhere, but technically, followers having Leadership could lead to an infinite Leadership chain (where "infinite" is "until the DM throws a book at you", of course).
I know there's no rule against it, but I'd appreciate it if you could refrain. I'm fine with you having "lieutenants," but followers with leadership creates a kind of political environment that I am not prepared for.
Unless you can get a 6th level follower's leadership score up to 21 (and they don't gain levels, so it has to be built-in), then they don't get 6th level followers, so don't loop to infinity.
...Therefore, you can in fact have a Leadership score of 21 at level 6.
you should note that taking UL has a negative impact on your living Leadership score.How does that work? Do we apply Undead Leadership's modifiers to both the leadership scores (i.e. taking Leadership and Undead Leadership is like Undead Leadership x2)?
So how's the adding templates to PC work here? We get up to +2 for free or something?
One question: approximately how long, level-wise, do you plan the campaign to be? It is important for planning ahead for prestige classes: some are worth pursuing mostly for their capstone, and thus the choice depends on what level we expect to finish on.
I read the sentence to say that the penalty should impact only if your followers are living; undead followers, which should be available under Leadership too, would not be diminished, but bolstered. Effectively 2 sets of Undead (say, Necropolitan) followers at +2. Or are you saying that Leadership can't attract intelligent Undead followers/Cohorts, so would be automatically diminished?
My stated plan has been to have Necropolitan (+0 LA), Magic Blooded (+0 LA), Lesser Aasimar (+0 LA) Cohorts and followers. For those starting above 2nd level, I was planning on having Draconic Templated (+1 LA) Cohorts and Followers.
[Edit] Upon consideration, the Half Nymph Template (DR 313, p95, +2 LA) instead of the Draconic Template looks rather promising for my PC and any Cohorts (and Followers who begin play at 6th or higher); +2 to Dex, Int and Wis, +4 to Cha, minor version of Nymph's Blinding Beauty (causes shaken in Humanoids). Loses +2 to str, but that's not necessarily too bad, and allows reflow of the PB chars' stats around it (dex & wis, mostly)...
My PC and Cohorts would have any un-bought-off LA on the Marshal/Legendary Leader side of the Gestalt, so PC is at full, Cohorts at LA 1 until 9th.[/Edit]
Having undead followers is why I have L. of the Dead on my char and my Cohorts over 6th level; it boosts Turn resistance for the character, and also bolsters Turn Resistance for 'Undead allies within 30 feet...'
Semi-relatedly, what are you guys planning to do for healing? Leave it up to the bard?Healer (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/healer/index.html) is considered Tier 5, and thus can be taken by followers. Thus, our followers can take care of healing.
How does buy-off interact with gestalt?
...the XP cost would cause him to drop a level. So a Fighter 3//Ranger 2/Divine Minion 1 who buys off his LA would become a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 that works like a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 Divine Minion.
How does buy-off interact with gestalt?
One of the wonderfully undefined things in 3.5, here it works just as Maelph described....the XP cost would cause him to drop a level. So a Fighter 3//Ranger 2/Divine Minion 1 who buys off his LA would become a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 that works like a Fighter 2//Ranger 2 Divine Minion.
I'll accept that backup :V I love the Bone Knight. But Undead Battery is, as you yourself have said, a bit insane. How about capping it at your HD/day?I figured it might have been banned, the cap is fine.
[Edit] Since they're weenies anyway, my 1st-4th followers (not the 4th Cohorts) will likely be warlocks with Eldritch Spear (250'), Summon Swarm (only 25-35' range, but can cause bleeding or poison), and See the Unseen(?). I'm considering Necropolitan Sparrow Hengeyokai as the race, unless you object to Fine Sized 23 Dex sharpshooters. Otherwise Necropolitan Anthropomorphic Ravens would work. [/Edit]
...I'd prefer the ravens over the swarm of fine-sized warlock death, if you don't mind. :)Ah well, I was hoping that it'd be otherwise, but not very realistically.
Wow, I am gone for a few days and the Optimization level goes crazy. :pChemus sort of started it on page 2 :p
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?
Feel free to swipe Bone Knight build if you like.
Death(Storm) Giant Blooded (Major) Paragon Orc Orc Warlord Warlord :lmao
@Vlad: I was looking at it just to get rid of my Light Sensitivity :lmao
Necropolitan usually costs a life level, but that gets confusing, so I'll just skip over even thinking about that part for sanity's sake.
Hit Points: Max at 1st level, average per level, rounded down.
Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?
Wow, I am gone for a few days and the Optimization level goes crazy. :p
Since Aasimar Paragon is not a thing I would like to know if either I would be allowed to use Human Paragon or this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Aasimar_Paragon_%283.5e_Racial_Paragon_Class%29) to count as my homebrew allowed.
Ah well, I was hoping that it'd be otherwise, but not very realistically.
Honestly, thematically, the ravens fit better, but I mis-remembered how bad their flight is. Necropolitan Anthropomorphic Bats, though they get no Dex bump, might be better. I'd prefer to re-fluff to ravens, they fit the death theme better and are 'prettier' (a la evening Glory).
Chemus sort of started it on page 2 :p
Here is the current status.
Ketaro: Major Red Dragon Blooded Orc, Barbarian 5 / Orc Warlord 4 // Warlord 5 / Paragon 4
Chemus: Evolved Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar, Paladin of Slaughter 9 // Draconic 1 / Marshal 2 / Fighter 2 / Evolved 1 / Legendary Leader 3
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?
Vladeshi: Lesser Aasmir, Aasimar Paragon Dread Necromancer ? // Bard or Swordsage ?
Maelphaxerazz: ?
------------------------------
Nanshork: Marshal Homebrew X // ?
SorO_Lost: Likely Magic-Blooded Human, Mystic Ranger 4 / Bone Knight 5 // Dread Necromancer 8 / Fire-Souled(?) 1
Feel free to swipe Bone Knight build if you like. Maybe Drammor will allow a Dread's Lesser Undead Battery (as undead battery but 1 use per hd per day, requires 4th level spells & dread necro 6th) or something. Then you can Persist Fireshield(cold) so really you only have to worry about Acid damage from hurting you, plus all of thosepaperworknightmarelovely undead that get 12.5hp/hd should last awhile.
@Drammor: I just looked at the NPC Gear Value chart and is that really the chart that Cohorts use for their equipment? I can understand for followers but....7,200 gp for a 7th level Cohort? -_-'
@Drammor again: I know OP only said some Pathfinder and I guess I'm looking at a bit of some Pathfinder...Anyways I get a bonus teamwork feat (which can also be granted to nearby allies) and I wanted to check and see if I needed to keep getting "okays" on each specific instance of PF content? :tongue
I was looking at picking up Phalanx Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/phalanx-fighter-teamwork/) but was wondering how'd it work since you kicked alignments to the curb for this game. I was also looking at literally my entire army running this feat.....
Can Cohorts & Followers also have bloodlines?
Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?
As yet another question, am I allowed to start with undead in my Animate Dead pool or will I have to fill it as we go?
Does this apply to followers and undead I make as well?
Close enough, thank you xD
Further question.
Does Protection from X not work in this game then?
(Added 2 CL, when Paladin failed to?)
(I'd like to pick haste, and the Template says you can pick or roll...)
Text is supposed to trump table; should I use that here? If so, I'd like to keep the ravens...
QuoteI was looking at picking up Phalanx Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/phalanx-fighter-teamwork/) but was wondering how'd it work since you kicked alignments to the curb for this game. I was also looking at literally my entire army running this feat.....
Can Cohorts & Followers also have bloodlines?
Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?
We have no alignment. Die, Alignment, die.
When battling terrifying hordes of enemies, you find strength in your shield brothers and sisters.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3,good alignment.
Benefit: You gain a sacred bonus to your ACagainst the attacks of evil creaturesand a sacred bonus to saves againstthespells and abilitiesof evil creaturesequal to the number of adjacent allies who also have this feat.
I only feel lucky that it does require BAB +3, meaning that thousands of troops won't have this ability.
The PCs are Special. Cohorts and followers may not have bloodlines.
Yeah, you're good on the executioner's mace.
Close enough, thank you xD
Further question.
Does Protection from X not work in this game then?
Right. Spells and effects dependent on alignment, such as Protection from Evil, simply do not exist in this version of the game. There's no alignment for them to protect you from, and no alignment for them to have.
Since Aasimar Paragon is not a thing I would like to know if either I would be allowed to use Human Paragon or this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Aasimar_Paragon_%283.5e_Racial_Paragon_Class%29) to count as my homebrew allowed.
And wow, something on dandwiki that isn't crazy broken. Sure, go for it.
As yet another question, am I allowed to start with undead in my Animate Dead pool or will I have to fill it as we go?
Fill it as you go.
I'll just steal a giant flying monster to ride on for thematic purposes instead~ Maybe the necromancer can build me a zombie dragon in exchange for giving him a bard with Requiem & an Alphorn :devil
Here is the current status.Gosh, I am way behind everybody else, aren't I :o
Ketaro: Major Red Dragon Blooded Orc, Barbarian 5 / Orc Warlord 4 // Warlord 5 / Paragon 4
Chemus: Evolved Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar, Paladin of Slaughter 9 // Draconic 1 / Marshal 2 / Fighter 2 / Evolved 1 / Legendary Leader 3
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?
Vladeshi: Lesser Aasmir, Aasimar Paragon Dread Necromancer ? // Bard or Swordsage ?
Maelphaxerazz: ?
------------------------------
Nanshork: Marshal Homebrew X // ?
SorO_Lost: Likely Magic-Blooded Human, Mystic Ranger 4 / Bone Knight 5 // Dread Necromancer 8 / Fire-Souled(?) 1
QuoteI was looking at picking up Phalanx Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/phalanx-fighter-teamwork/) but was wondering how'd it work since you kicked alignments to the curb for this game. I was also looking at literally my entire army running this feat.....
Can Cohorts & Followers also have bloodlines?
Edit: I came across a weapon in Dragon Magazine (I think...113?) called the Executioner's Mace and can I have this?
We have no alignment. Die, Alignment, die.
When battling terrifying hordes of enemies, you find strength in your shield brothers and sisters.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3,good alignment.
Benefit: You gain a sacred bonus to your ACagainst the attacks of evil creaturesand a sacred bonus to saves againstthespells and abilitiesof evil creaturesequal to the number of adjacent allies who also have this feat.
I only feel lucky that it does require BAB +3, meaning that thousands of troops won't have this ability.
The PCs are Special. Cohorts and followers may not have bloodlines.
Yeah, you're good on the executioner's mace.QuoteClose enough, thank you xD
Further question.
Does Protection from X not work in this game then?
Right. Spells and effects dependent on alignment, such as Protection from Evil, simply do not exist in this version of the game. There's no alignment for them to protect you from, and no alignment for them to have.
Which is it? Do things that function against a specific alignment do nothing or do they apply against everything? Is it a case-by-case basis thing?
Here is the current status.Gosh, I am way behind everybody else, aren't I :o
Ketaro: Major Red Dragon Blooded Orc, Barbarian 5 / Orc Warlord 4 // Warlord 5 / Paragon 4
Chemus: Evolved Necropolitan Magic Blooded Draconic Lesser Aasimar, Paladin of Slaughter 9 // Draconic 1 / Marshal 2 / Fighter 2 / Evolved 1 / Legendary Leader 3
Rekmond: White Dragonspawn Dvati, Crusader ? / PF's Invulnerable Rager Barbarian ?
Vladeshi: Lesser Aasmir, Aasimar Paragon Dread Necromancer ? // Bard or Swordsage ?
Maelphaxerazz: ?
------------------------------
Nanshork: Marshal Homebrew X // ?
SorO_Lost: Likely Magic-Blooded Human, Mystic Ranger 4 / Bone Knight 5 // Dread Necromancer 8 / Fire-Souled(?) 1
You can put me down as a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum 9 // Dragon Warlord* 5/Chameleon 4 for now.
*that'll be my one homebrew. It is actually just Orc Warlord without me being an orc, with Dragonblood replacing the Rage prereq, and with the Final Rage capstone replaced with Dread Pirate's "Pirate King" capstone (except it is renamed Dragon King). Because why use somebody else's one homebrew when I can (lazily) homebrew something myself?
(If you are wondering how I put nine levels of prestige class in the other side, consider the interaction of PHBII's class rebuilding rules with gestalt. As written, you could lose one side's classes and use the other side's classes to meet the prereqs.)
I contradicted myself?? Of all the continuity errors possible in this wide, wide internet, how could I have fallen victim to this one iconic blunder? :sobbing :p
And now shoving eight levels of Bone Knight on the second side sounds awesome.You can put me down as a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum 9 // Dragon Warlord* 5/Chameleon 4 for now.Sounds good to me.
(If you are wondering how I put nine levels of prestige class in the other side, consider the interaction of PHBII's class rebuilding rules with gestalt. As written, you could lose one side's classes and use the other side's classes to meet the prereqs.)
I'll likely have other points later, but those are the foremost of the things I need Yes/No answers to so I can get more work done.
I guess someone will have to build an actual crafter if you want those discounts.Possibly. However, one could also just say they used to have a crafter, then later dismissed the crafter and found a different follower in its place. It depends on whether we want a crafter coming with us to this campaign.
It depends on whether we want a crafter coming with us to this campaign.
Despite this, the PCs will be isolated for most of the campaign,
A pair of dvati twins shares all class abilities and spells slots between them. For example, a 3rd-level dvati bard can use bardic music three times per day in total, not three times for each twin. Personal spells (those with a target of "you") affect both twins as long as they are on the same plane. Otherwise, they affect only the caster. Other spells function as normal. For example, a touch spell normally affects only the specific twin touched. The spell conductor ability (detailed below) allows the dvati to share some spells.
A mind-affecting ability or spell that affects one twin affects both of them. If a single such ability targets both twins at the same time, they make only one save between them. Dvati twins share one mind.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Hopefully I can squeeze in requiem. My cohort is going to be a bard/warlock and at least have craft arms and armor
I won't be starting with one, but I can earmark the first dragon we kill for you. :D
Hopefully I can squeeze in requiem. My cohort is going to be a bard/warlock and at least have craft arms and armor
That cohort setup seems familiar......
*looks at half built cohort*
hmm, yeah...I guess that'll point me to Craft Wondrous instead.
I don't know how to judge it sorry -_-'
@Drammor
I've gotten to the point of browsing spells for my Cohort's bard side atm. I may edit this before you respond. I'm exhausting D&D sources for interesting stuff before browsing Pathfinder >> Yes, whatever is linked below is me asking for a PF spell...
0th Level Signal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing-3rd-party-spells/s/signal/)
2nd Level Lay of the Land (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lay-of-the-land/)
3rd Level Arcane Concordance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-concordance/)
That is all please & thank you~
Edit: Hmm, not counting a few more spells (above), yay I finished my cohort. With a very appropriate spell selection for largescale war :p
God damn is he both squishy and easy to hit...
@Drammor: If a character takes the Improved Cohort feat, it still abides by the Cohort XP rules. Thus, an existing cohort can't catch up unless the PC gets more XP than he can use (more than 2 level's worth). Will that be addressed, or am I somehow incorrect?
Oh no, I have 18 AC as a frontline dps that drops to 12 when I rage :lmao
Can't you use other nonfeat cost reduction to make that BBB cheaper? Like making it x class only.Um... it can require a DC... 15? ...21? spellcraft, or ...forgery, check to scribe... that knocks off 10% (~350gp), But I can't see a way to get a 'specific class' (and alignment is right out!) requirement in there well (which could knock off 30%) Unless they meant a class feature (such as arcane casting) in which case, the book only functions for those who prepare and scribe spells as a wizard does... if I could do that it would get it to 2214gp.
The Spellcraft skill lets you memorize spells from another person's spellbook. The DC is 15 + spell level for each spell, one check per day. IIRC, Complete Arcane lets you permanently work from someone else's spellbook with a DC 25 + spell level Spellcraft check, too. It's a little unreliable without a high Spellcraft modifier, but it should help cut down costs for having large numbers of spellcasters around.
@Drammor: If a character takes the Improved Cohort feat, it still abides by the Cohort XP rules. Thus, an existing cohort can't catch up unless the PC gets more XP than he can use (more than 2 level's worth). Will that be addressed, or am I somehow incorrect?
No, you're right.
We could just fix cohorts at their maximum level and give them an XP pool that puts them "halfway to their next level", and have them gain/lose a permanent level when you do. Their pool could gain or lose XP as it was gained/spent but it wouldn't affect their level. And I'm not majorly concerned about what that means for cohort crafting.
I can appreciate doubling down on the followers aspect of the game, but that really is going too far with the concept.Could you clarify this? My current also has a similar horde of followers (and more), so I would like to know how many followers is too many, so I can guide my choices.
Could you clarify this? My current also has a similar horde of followers (and more), so I would like to know how many followers is too many, so I can guide my choices.
That's what I thought, but once I saw the possibility, I kinda had to check. I'll limit the followerness-ness of my feat picks then.
Since alignment ain't in the game, would an item in MIC that's limited to Turn undead (Not Rebuke Undead) still have that limit, and would it be homebrew to have the same item in reverse? (Ephod of Authority, Part of Vestments of Divinity (Set for 'fightingevilcreatures'), MIC 215, +1 Turn Undead).
could I see a breakdown of those rosters, by leadership score?You could, but it might take me some time to run up the numbers. Until now, the build was entirely in my head, with all the things I was thinking of putting in it (pending DM's discretion, of course.) Now that I actually start working through the implications, it is a bit overwhelming
It might not be as bad as it looks from first blush.ha, ha Hahahahaha HAHAHAHAa ahaHAHAHAHAHAHAA
have you somehow found a way to give a single PC 12 different cohorts?Five. Dragon Cohort + Undead Leadership + Great Diplomat (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Great_Diplomat) + Mentor + Leadership.
9th (PC) | 8th | 8th | 7th | 7th | 7th | 7th | 7th | 6th | 6th | 6th | 6th | 6th | 6th | 6th | 6th | 6th | 6th | 6th | Total | |||||||||||||||||||||
Lshp | 37 | 28 | 28 | 26 | 26 | 26 | 26 | 26 | 25 | 25 | 25 | 25 | 25 | 25 | 25 | 25 | 25 | 25 | 25 | |||||||||||||||||||||
1st | 2960 | 880 | 880 | 640 | 640 | 640 | 640 | 640 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 520 | 13640 | ||||||||||||||||||||
2nd | 296 | 88 | 88 | 64 | 64 | 64 | 64 | 64 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 52 | 1364 | ||||||||||||||||||||
3rd | 148 | 44 | 44 | 32 | 32 | 32 | 32 | 32 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 704 | ||||||||||||||||||||
4th | 76 | 24 | 24 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 380 | ||||||||||||||||||||
5th | 40 | 12 | 12 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 192 | ||||||||||||||||||||
6th | 20 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 164 | ||||||||||||||||||||
7th | 12 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 84 | ||||||||||||||||||||
8th | 8 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | 8 | ||||||||||||||||||||
9th | 4 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | 4 |
Regarding Great Diplomat: Oh MY. I hadn't seen that in the update (But it is in the update!)have you somehow found a way to give a single PC 12 different cohorts?Five. Dragon Cohort + Undead Leadership + Great Diplomat (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Great_Diplomat) + Mentor + Leadership.
Sub-Sub-Sub-Cohorts: Level 5, 320 persons. Have Leadership, Mentor.
ha, ha Hahahahaha HAHAHAHAa ahaHAHAHAHAHAHAAWelp.
@Chemus, x4 followers? Are you using Extra Followers and Warlord to multiply 200% by 2? If so, please remember that in this system, two doublings equals a tripling.
...5th level Characters can't get Leadership usually; how are you making that work?Despot paladin variant, from Dragon 312. Has Leadership as a class feature at level 5.
I am strangely okay with ~60 cohorts, and maybe even upwards of 75, but 1067 cohorts is around a thousand too many. I mean, I appreciate your passion for the system, but there's just a limit to the number of military-capable people/corpses in a nation.That's fair. I did not realise how many it was until I sat down to do the math. D&D 3.5 is the sort of game which has enough different ways to do the same thing that if any character specialized completely, that person warps the universe around their specialty.
Objectively, though, wow. That's just insane. Congratulations on what you did there.It's what I was trying to do that one day in chat. Using a 6th level Follower as an artillery commander, a 5th level cohort bard to inspire the crew, their leadership pools to secure the wealth to buy several siege engines, and still have enough lower level followers to act as a defensive meat grinder.
Gosh, I have only a humble horde of just under 500. But I suppose it'd show that there aren't many orcs following undead gods :pThe followers can't take Leadership, per Drammor's ruling.
Unless anybody recommends putting more Leadership's into my 6 lvl 6th & 7th followers :v
Hmm.... Heh, that'd be funny. Nongestalt followers with gestalt cohorts.
D&D's additive multiplication only applies for abstract quantities, like damage. Real-world units, like distance, multiply multiplicatively, like in reality.
Gosh, I have only a humble horde of just under 500. But I suppose it'd show that there aren't many orcs following undead gods :p
Unless anybody recommends putting more Leadership's into my 6 lvl 6th & 7th followers :v
Hmm.... Heh, that'd be funny. Nongestalt followers with gestalt cohorts.
Which, of course, means that I also have to recalculate my follower count, because I have the horde and Extra Followers. This may become a bloodbath of Mongol proportions :coolD&D's additive multiplication only applies for abstract quantities, like damage. Real-world units, like distance, multiply multiplicatively, like in reality.
Uuuugh. This is like... the 6th time I've had to recalculate followers for these villains. Thanks though, that's good information.
May I take Racial Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage/) feat?
- Sources Allowed: ... some Pathfinder (ask).
May I take Racial Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage/) feat?
- Sources Allowed: ... some Pathfinder (ask).
EDIT: also, I want to modify my homebrew. Chameleon basically needs to be human (or changeling, or doppelganger), so the "dragon" theme of my not-orc-warlord prestige class isn't fitting very well. So, I'd like to rename it to Human Warlord, changing the prerequisites appropriately. It will look less silly when the leader of the army is not a four-foot-tall lizard.:thought
Can anyone think of any good names for a creepy little girl and her bodyguard? :bigeyes
I already have one for the other cohort. This is always one of the hardest parts for me.
...Can anyone think of any good names for a creepy little girl and her bodyguard? :bigeyes...
On Dvati: what happens when one Dvati twin dies and, while the other is still alive, a friendly druid casts Last Breath (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell-compendium--86/last-breath--4336/index.html) on the slain twin. Does the Dvati retain its twin connection if he or she becomes, say, a Changeling?
(I'm basically thinking of also being Dvati, but not exactly a Dvati. A +1 LA for a PC in two bodies)
On Dvati: what happens when one Dvati twin dies and, while the other is still alive, a friendly druid casts Last Breath (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell-compendium--86/last-breath--4336/index.html) on the slain twin. Does the Dvati retain its twin connection if he or she becomes, say, a Changeling?
(I'm basically thinking of also being Dvati, but not exactly a Dvati. A +1 LA for a PC in two bodies)
Does it have to list an LA for the template? :tongueDunno, but prolly.
crypt spawn (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/cryptspawn.shtml) (MoF, exactly like necropolitan, except that the +2 to saves vs control undead is replaced with Nat AC by HD (+1), and a +4 Intimidate, created with a 7th level Initiate of Bane divine spell (Undeath after Death), 50gp/HD) +2 LA after the FR Update in the PGtF WE (dammit)
The crypt spawn is the best, but for that NAC and LA. *mumble mumble WotC*
what if
we follow Tem-Et-Nu (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/sandstorm--85/blessed-by-tem-et-nu--219/index.html)
I know you guys liked the idea of following Evening glory, but guys
what if
we follow Tem-Et-Nu (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/sandstorm--85/blessed-by-tem-et-nu--219/index.html)
If that LA was not there I would be using that over Necropolitan in an instant.
Because my Intimidate check is already +30.
The phrase "Oh yes, we worship the Holy Hippo!" comes to mind. :lmao
@Drammor: In that vein, how serious do we want this campaign to be?
Sources Allowed: ... some Pathfinder (ask).An army of Russians (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rasputin_Must_Die!) armed with machine guns, flamethrowers, and rifles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/firearms/modern-firearms/). Yea or nay?
I've been using a spreadsheet to set-up the PC, cohorts, Mounts, followers and equipment.I can imagine the mess of paperwork, it's the main reason I didn't sign up as a primary player :p
That bloodline would interact... interestingly, with the campaign rules. I mean, it would open up the PC classes for NPCs, but they wouldn't be able to gestalt, and they would be able to take PrCs, but they'd naturally still be subject to approval.
Hi Sirp!
Since it's been a while, we should double check on who's still able to and interested in playing. So, a roll call of sorts. And I'll talk to someone about getting a board.
Did you also notice the 1 approved homebrew per person rule?Gah! Reading fail. I notice that base classes aren't on the example list, though...
This setup was quite interesting to build for lemme tell you.
Lets see.
I was building a Fey Blooded White Dragonspawn Dvati. Crusader/Barbarian with Paragon as my allowed homebrew. Though I was very close to using the Rage Powers from Pathfinder instead of Paragon.
Yeah, I'm pretty excited for a Leadership campaign. :D And hey, those are some great questions you have there. Let's see if I can knock any of them out.
1. Sorry about that. To clarify, each player will select a base class from list A, and another base class from list B. For players, no other base classes are allowed.
I'm reading the Bladecraft system now, but it's going to take me at least a half hour to absorb what I'm looking at.No worries :)
I forgot, but were we doing cross crafting?
My companion has Craft Wondrous and Extraordinary Artisan. If we have someone bardlike taking Requiem that'll free her up for Craft Magical Arms and Armor as well.
I forgot, but were we doing cross crafting?
My companion has Craft Wondrous and Extraordinary Artisan. If we have someone bardlike taking Requiem that'll free her up for Craft Magical Arms and Armor as well.
My main is a bard. I can take requiem if I retrain a lower level feat slot for it.
Crafting sounds good. Can I put in a commission for +4 cha and str gear? I really need that, but it's a big chunk out of 9th level wbl.
Actually -. How does crafting XP work for followers. They don't have XP totals, but I have plenty of mid-level adept and warmage followers who could do lots of useful crafting.
Gah! Reading fail. I notice that base classes aren't on the example list, though...
EDIT: Drammor, would you approve the Bladecraft (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=245.0) subsystem as my one piece of homebrew? I've been wanting to give it a try. If so, then I'll go Fighter // Binder.
(There are a couple of edits I made during the Interregnum which haven't been back-ported yet. It'll be a quick fix, and then writing the special combat rules is priority 1.)
AWESOME. OK, one fighter/binder coming up. :DGah! Reading fail. I notice that base classes aren't on the example list, though...
EDIT: Drammor, would you approve the Bladecraft (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=245.0) subsystem as my one piece of homebrew? I've been wanting to give it a try. If so, then I'll go Fighter // Binder.
(There are a couple of edits I made during the Interregnum which haven't been back-ported yet. It'll be a quick fix, and then writing the special combat rules is priority 1.)
I'm still not perfect on how Bladecraft works, but I believe I have a rudimentary understanding, and would also like to see how it goes in practice. You can use the subsystem, sure.
Upon careful consideration of the rules and many math. I have decided to drop the Siege Weapon idea for my mooks. It simply won't work 80% of the time.Improved Aid Another improves the bonus to +4? The Superior Team Effort teamwork benefit from PHB2?
the DC 10 Str part of the reloading check, I can get an Orc with +2 str and a +1 from a Marshall support...and for people to aid him requires a DC 10 profession check which can't be done untrained. +5 to this check at best without tooling them up.
and that doesn't even go into the dc 15 profession checks to Aim and reload. Much less if you ever need to repair the weapon.
I just can't see it working with a group of Level 1 characters.
Upon careful consideration of the rules and many math. I have decided to drop the Siege Weapon idea for my mooks. It simply won't work 80% of the time.Improved Aid Another improves the bonus to +4? The Superior Team Effort teamwork benefit from PHB2?
the DC 10 Str part of the reloading check, I can get an Orc with +2 str and a +1 from a Marshall support...and for people to aid him requires a DC 10 profession check which can't be done untrained. +5 to this check at best without tooling them up.
and that doesn't even go into the dc 15 profession checks to Aim and reload. Much less if you ever need to repair the weapon.
I just can't see it working with a group of Level 1 characters.
I just realized - you've okayed Bladecraft, but does that include the feats/ACFs/Blademaster PrC which make up the supporting material?
OK, no worries. I probably wasn't going to use the ACFs anyway, and the PrC (while awesome) would only have contributed one level to the build anyway.I just realized - you've okayed Bladecraft, but does that include the feats/ACFs/Blademaster PrC which make up the supporting material?
The feats are fine, but the ACFs and PrC will have to wait for another occasion, I'm afraid.
Okay, so currently my build is looking like this: (Sorry for the terrible formating)
target leadership score of 31 (Now 36)
9 (Level) + 9 (Natural Leader) + Cha +Str (Might makes right) = 36
Okay, so currently my build is looking like this: (Sorry for the terrible formating)
target leadership score of 31 (Now 36)
9 (Level) + 9 (Natural Leader) + Cha +Str (Might makes right) = 36
The Leadership feats you have (aside from leadership itself) increase your score by 1 apiece. So Improved Cohort and Extra Followers add another +2 to your score.
Okay, so currently my build is looking like this: (Sorry for the terrible formating)
target leadership score of 31 (Now 36)
9 (Level) + 9 (Natural Leader) + Cha +Str (Might makes right) = 36
The Leadership feats you have (aside from leadership itself) increase your score by 1 apiece. So Improved Cohort and Extra Followers add another +2 to your score.
Do they? I didn't know that. That's really good. I'll start integrating the extra troops. No extra high levels, but another two companies doesn't go amiss.
I have enough new troops for a third new company - I might make that siege, once I have read the rules. How effectively could 90 level 1-2's do siege, do you think?
Otherwise, it will be rouges and factotums, set up for infiltration.
Also, speaking of NPC WBL, each of my 1500+ soldiers is contributing 100gp to the diamond fund, in exchange for a chance at getting resurrected out of it if they die in battle. (since my 9th level healers knows raise dead, this gives us a good fund to keep the main party members, and the better followers going even in hard times). And its good for morale, if the prize for "Most Glorious death that left a reasonably intact body" is being brought back to life.
Also, speaking of NPC WBL, each of my 1500+ soldiers is contributing 100gp to the diamond fund, in exchange for a chance at getting resurrected out of it if they die in battle. (since my 9th level healers knows raise dead, this gives us a good fund to keep the main party members, and the better followers going even in hard times). And its good for morale, if the prize for "Most Glorious death that left a reasonably intact body" is being brought back to life.
And suddenly I'm wondering if I can use a catapult launch as a springboard for me to get to the battlefield faster. I do have flight, but well...a little assistance never hurt.
Trained Followers: There's nothing worse than incompetents. They're useless and hardly worth the effort of subjecting them to the aura of command which the Noble-Blood emits. They're weak-willed enough to follow on their own, anyways. The Noble-Blood seeks more skilled followers. The followers attracted by the Leadership feat all have PC class levels instead of NPC class levels, at no level penalty. Followers with levels in prestige classes are treated as three levels higher than they actually are for terms of Leadership instead of five levels. Cohorts may freely have prestige classes.
And then half-orcs to lead? that avoids the hit to wisdom, if firing is a profession check, and the fluff works better that way that suddenly switching to anthropomorphic toads or something.
And then half-orcs to lead? that avoids the hit to wisdom, if firing is a profession check, and the fluff works better that way that suddenly switching to anthropomorphic toads or something.
Firing is actually 1d20 + BAB + Int mod with other modifiers as normal. Against the AC 15 square you are aiming for. (-6 if it is say, over a wall) You still need Siege Engineer with the crew chief for the loading and aiming though.
Otherwise, it will be rouges and factotums, set up for infiltration.
Otherwise, it will be rouges and factotums, set up for infiltration.
Oh good. I was starting to worry no player would bring this up.
And suddenly I'm wondering if I can use a catapult launch as a springboard for me to get to the battlefield faster. I do have flight, but well...a little assistance never hurt.
Oh, you think we need infiltrators? I can reassign one of the Shock Troop companies, I don't need 180 orc barbarians.
(also, I am going to have so many low-level NPC's to build. I will have to do pretty rough sketches. Do we get to pick feats and flaws for the followers?
I feel a grin stretching across my face. Hey Drammor, what is your opinion on Exotic Pets?
I think my cohort can quite effectively keep a few animals trained, so what kind of options might I have?
It would be hard to fluff it that way, since it wouldn't be lootable gear. I'm afraid if that's what you want to do, you'll have to go about it head on.
Quick poll: Do I use spellscales or lesser assimar as the race for the Cha-needed followers. Currently my marshals and bards are spellscales, and my healers are lesser aasimar. (the only two +2 cha, LA 0 races I can find. )
But fluff-wise, spellscales are kinda chaotic, and aasimar are kinda good. What to do, with regard to having officers in the army of darkness which we seem to be forming here?
Oh yeah, that's fine then.
Edit: Okay, to get this, I had to combine rules from the PHB, MM2 and A&EG.
If you want pets/exotic pets/et cetera, you'll need someone who can train them. This means either maintaining a hireling, or build followers for the purpose of training your pets. I think it's probably fair to say that a follower can train as many HD of pets as they have HD, themselves (so particularly HD-heavy pets would require multiple trainers all on their own).
If you want an exotic pet, you must pay the cost of training and rearing it. If you want it to be battle-capable, then it needs to be a warbeast (otherwise it will flee unless it makes a DC 15 Will save every time it feels threatened).
The market price of a warbeast is a function of its Hit Dice: 50 gp/HD for a warbeast of 3 HD or less, or 100 gp + 75 gp/HD for one of 4 HD or more.
There are no rules listed for what to do if you don't want a warbeast, other than to look at the various creatures that have specific costs listed, so I'd just say halve the cost/HD for a non-warbeast.
You also need to take these surcharges into account:
Handle Animal DC: 15–19 125 gp
Handle Animal DC: 20–24 250 gp
Handle Animal DC: 25–29 500 gp
Handle Animal DC: 30–35 1,000 gp
Unusual movement: 500 gp
(fly, swim, burrow)
Difficult special ability: 500 gp
(per special ability)
Vicious creature: 1,000 gp
Assistant required: 100 gp
(per assistant)
Charm monster scroll: 700 gp
And you should take this into account: Creatures with alien mindsets or ecologies (such as those from other planes) or those requiring unique equipment, can drive the price up even farther.
As I dive into building this character for serious, can I have a quick rundown of what we already have? Including some basic army setups?
Awesome. Infantry & cavalry I shall provide.
Hey Drammor, since there's no alignment, can I have a substitute class feature for Knight of the Sacred Seal's Aligned Strike? It's basically the only real class feature at KoSS 1.
EDIT: Is it kosher to build our own bloodlines (since the bloodline building rules are right there in the SRD)?
EDIT EDIT: Similar to the KoSS thing, how does Smite Evil/Good/etc. work?
EDIT EDIT EDIT: And aligned damage reduction?
Is everyone still agreed on worshiping Evening Glory?
"LEADER FEATS
This book introduces a new type of feat called leader feats.
Leader feats augment or alter the effects of the Leadership feat
(as presented on page 97 of the Player’s Handbook and described
in more detail on page 106 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide). Typically,
a leader feat affects your cohort and/or your followers but
has no effect on other allies.
Since all leader feats include Leadership as a prerequisite,
their presence in the game is subject to the DM’s approval. If the
DM prefers not to include the Leadership feat in the campaign,
then all feats of the leader type are similarly off limits.
In addition to their listed benefits, each leader feat taken by a
character improves his Leadership score by +1."
Bottom paragraph on page 96 of Heroes of Battle.