Author Topic: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)  (Read 31798 times)

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« on: November 22, 2011, 03:13:56 PM »
I keep seeing it said that the Alignment Rules for D&D 3.5 are "unusable" "unworkable" "self refuting" "contradictory" and/or "broken" in some fashion.

(1) What exactly is so unusable about them?

(2) If you see them as tendencies, except in the case of Paladins and the like, aren't all problems swept aside in one swift stroke? Sure if you want to define lawful, neutral, chaotic, evil, good with mathematical precision then you run into the same problems the philosophers have been having since the dawn of thinking. 

But we are talking about human beings right? So alignments are typically tendencies and trends, except in those people who are completely un-conflicted or the fanatical.

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Offline Bozwevial

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 03:25:47 PM »
The problem with alignments is that they are involved in the mechanics.

I would honestly be much happier if every single alignment-specific thing was scrubbed from the rules. If you really have to restrict something, give it a code of conduct, but let's not keep going with the thing where devotion to one's profession is described as being lawful and not lawful within a page and being lawful means you can't become a great cellist.
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2011, 05:10:24 PM »
The problem with alignments is that they are involved in the mechanics.

Where besides spells and feat reuirements?
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 05:13:48 PM »
The problem with alignments is that they are involved in the mechanics.

Where besides spells and feat reuirements?

Class restrictions are probably the biggest one. 

Offline Bozwevial

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 05:59:13 PM »
The problem with alignments is that they are involved in the mechanics.

Where besides spells and feat reuirements?
Class abilities, class requirements, magic items, all over the place.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 08:03:49 PM »
Not to mention Alignment-obsessed DMs with a tenuous grasp on them, arguing things like "Joker's ability to plan the robbery in the movie means he must be a Lawful character."   :shakefist
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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 09:12:33 PM »
Not to mention Alignment-obsessed DMs with a tenuous grasp on them, arguing things like "Joker's ability to plan the robbery in the movie means he must be a Lawful character."   :shakefist
That's not the rules fault. That kind of thing can happen with the best of systems.

Offline Kajhera

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2011, 09:19:48 PM »
A Lawful Neutral person who casts Deathwatch 9 times is damned to hell. Lawful Good, too, though it's harder since a cleric simply couldn't in that case.

Now, you can view this as an unfortunate and nonsensical oversight, or you can see it for what it really is.

One of the greater tragedies in the planar spheres, an insidious little thing slipped into Hell's agreement to keep creation intact, and get souls that *don't* deserve to be there...

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2011, 09:31:33 PM »
A Lawful Neutral person who casts Deathwatch 9 times is damned to hell. Lawful Good, too, though it's harder since a cleric simply couldn't in that case.

Now, you can view this as an unfortunate and nonsensical oversight, or you can see it for what it really is.

One of the greater tragedies in the planar spheres, an insidious little thing slipped into Hell's agreement to keep creation intact, and get souls that *don't* deserve to be there...

Oh?  There are rules for casting spells with alignment descriptors that force alignment changes?  Then I guess all those evil wizards using Magic Circle Against Evil to bind demons to their will must be pure of heart...
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 09:44:46 PM »
A Lawful Neutral person who casts Deathwatch 9 times is damned to hell. Lawful Good, too, though it's harder since a cleric simply couldn't in that case.

Now, you can view this as an unfortunate and nonsensical oversight, or you can see it for what it really is.

One of the greater tragedies in the planar spheres, an insidious little thing slipped into Hell's agreement to keep creation intact, and get souls that *don't* deserve to be there...

Oh?  There are rules for casting spells with alignment descriptors that force alignment changes?  Then I guess all those evil wizards using Magic Circle Against Evil to bind demons to their will must be pure of heart...

No, it won't force an alignment change. But it will cause Corruption points to accrue, if unrepented for. A Lawful character with 9 or more is doomed to Baator despite how much good they may have done. (Fiendish Codex II)

Next time you're wandering Hell, detect good and some poor damned soul lights up, you know one possibility.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 10:53:41 AM »
There are a lot of issues, some minor and some not. Some are bigger deals with certain groups of people:
  • Class restrictions. There's no good reason you shouldn't be able to make a barbarian/paladin, so long as you adhere to your CoC.
  • Arguments at the table: this depends on the group, but the descriptions are vague enough that it could stall a game for no good reason.
  • Forced objective morality that doesn't necessarily make sense. In this world, Good and Evil are somewhat quantifiable and predictable forces. They can be Detected with near certitude. Holy weapons do more damage to Evil people. Yet, there's nothing to really say what happens if a paladin kills someone simply on the grounds that they're Evil and nothing else (this potentially leads to arguments).

Another issue is some odd assignments and assumptions. Some are specifically alignment based, and some are hinted at:
  • Animating the dead is evil, even if you use your skeleton's only for good. The system doesn't care about intentions or results, but rather adherence to bizarre cosmic laws.
  • Poison use is evil, for some reason. This includes tranquilizers and other non-lethal poison (actually, all non-Con damaging poison is non-lethal by definition).
  • BoED has some stupid rules for ravishes and afflictions (diseases and poisons that only affect evil creatures), and these aren't evil for some reason. Although, limiting yourself to only poisoning evil creatures is still evil...
  • BoVD strongly implies that icky things are evil, like piercings and what not.
  • The rules for the afterlives get really crazy. There's no concept of redemption. If you're a good exemplar of your alignment, you get the good ending in your afterlife. If not, you get a bad ending. So, it's better for an evil guy to be really evil than it is to try and convert to good and not do a good enough job. He runs the risk of not being some badass in Hell and instead becoming a tortured slave in hell, or maybe a tuft of grass in Celestia, or something stupid.
  • The system (especially in the splat books) has a strong Judeo-Christian leaning while at the same time being polytheistic. This can lead to weird side effects (like the lack of redemption and some of the weirder stuff in BoVD/BoED).
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2011, 11:08:39 AM »
I'm sure I read in a Sage Advice column one time that using poisons is not inherently evil, it's the manner in which you use it.  If you use the poison in an underhanded fashion, such as dosing someone's food, it is evil, whereas if you poison your weapon for a stand-up fight, it's not, because you are already intending to kill with the weapon, so making it a bit more lethal with poison is no different than casting a spell that increases its damage.  Usage of poisons is still generally socially unacceptable, and is most commonly used by and associated with assassins and other evil types far more often, but as far as actual good or evil, it is neutral.  Otherwise, animals with natural poison would automatically shift to evil just from hunting food or fending off predators.

Dammit, it's hard to keep using the word poison when it's used so poorly.  A toxin that's ingested is a poison, one that directly enters the bloodstream is a venom.
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2011, 11:09:31 AM »
There is a concept of redemption. It's a sidebar in Complete Champion. Repenting, is quantified in Fiendish Codex, though I am hoping no one calls me on the Atonement spell being necessary - trying to redeem a CE person anyway, not a Lawful person, so it should be simpler. Why is use of the Atonement spell a problem? His prison is a no-magic demiplane, and best case he's sentenced there for life.

The fact my paladin is pseudo-catholic enough to believe in purgatory or becoming a ghost-spirit (okay, this second is based on actually knowing one) if you can't complete the process in life makes this easier. Hoping that my DM will be lenient with what exactly they need to convert to, because frankly I just want to keep him out of the Abyss, and I could care less if his alignment is within one step of LN or if he worships an emerald dragon. Going with the ideal of good would be preferable. You know, using my role as a paladin, not a cleric.

" REDEMPTION
In general, evil beings with "always" in their alignment descriptions cannot be redeemed, but any other—however unlikely the prospect—can be. Exceptions to this rule might exist in a given campaign or setting, and at the DM's discretion. The process of redemption requires that the being make full recompense or atonement for each evil act, shift its alignment to within one step of your deity's, and convert to the worship of your god. "
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 11:14:35 AM by Kajhera »

Offline SneeR

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 12:56:45 PM »
Yeah, redemption rules made me want to play a good succubus, but aren't demons made of the stuffs of evil? That's why you can't raise them outside of their home plane. right? So, I suppose theres that problem with the fluff, at least.
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Offline Ryu Hayabusa

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2011, 03:02:50 AM »
Yeah, redemption rules made me want to play a good succubus, but aren't demons made of the stuffs of evil? That's why you can't raise them outside of their home plane. right? So, I suppose theres that problem with the fluff, at least.

It can happen, in theory:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

These sort of things should be the exception to prove the rule.

If you're going to use alignments, I'm of the opinion you need to sit down and figure out what's good, evil, lawful and chaotic for you. Read the sources, figure out what you like and don't like, and change to taste. Alignments can be used, but do your homework as a DM and tell your players how your view the alignments.

Quote
No, it won't force an alignment change. But it will cause Corruption points to accrue, if unrepented for. A Lawful character with 9 or more is doomed to Baator despite how much good they may have done. (Fiendish Codex II)

I'd recommend ignoring those rules from the FC2, they're not well done at all.

Offline veekie

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2011, 11:52:59 AM »
Alignment, mainly causes problems on the requirements end.
These largely weaken and cheapen the alignment, especially for the arbitrary(barbarian, bard, monk) restrictions. Classes that directly draw upon aligned forces are exempt from being arbitrary of course, they do make some degree of sense.

Inconsistent and conflicting definitions of aligned actions:
-The strong bent towards equating Good with Lawful Good(a good number of dishonorable acts get binned in Evil arbitrarily, like poison)
-The bent towards icky = evil(a relic of past editions, where icky = smite-ok).

Shallow interpretations of aligned behavior.
-Assuming characters would be aligned caricatures. Alignment should dictate motivation, and preferred means. Only actual aligned exemplars would be that extreme.
-Law = Stick up the ass. Obeys the law in all things even where laws would conflict. What laws do you follow when your god says one thing, your nation says another, and your current location says a third? What about a code of honor?
-Chaos = Derp, randomness yay! Freedom and individuality are not the same as statistical chaos, and people playing them as Chaotic Insane are doing the whole alignment a disservice
-Good = Shackles. People have a perception that Good bars 'easy' solutions, and it is often used by DMs that way(DMs finding their games spinning out of control would seize at anything, and many characters have Good alignments). So Good acquires a restrictive cast to its stereotype.
-Evil = Psycho. Again, Evil can't have things it cares about, or lesser evils, or social norms.
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Offline radionausea

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2011, 03:19:51 PM »
Alignment in D&D is deontological bullshit.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2011, 09:55:10 PM »
Dammit, it's hard to keep using the word poison when it's used so poorly.  A toxin that's ingested is a poison, one that directly enters the bloodstream is a venom.

No, you're wrong.
http://i.word.com/idictionary/poison
http://i.word.com/idictionary/venom
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2011, 10:23:24 PM »
Dammit, it's hard to keep using the word poison when it's used so poorly.  A toxin that's ingested is a poison, one that directly enters the bloodstream is a venom.

No, you're wrong.
http://i.word.com/idictionary/poison
http://i.word.com/idictionary/venom

The first paragraph in wikipedia clarifies my argument.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Alignment Rules (D&D 3.5)
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2011, 10:56:15 PM »
Dammit, it's hard to keep using the word poison when it's used so poorly.  A toxin that's ingested is a poison, one that directly enters the bloodstream is a venom.

No, you're wrong.
http://i.word.com/idictionary/poison
http://i.word.com/idictionary/venom

The first paragraph in wikipedia clarifies my argument.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary pulls much more weight than Wikipedia ;)

As for alignment, the cool alignment pictures about alignments, such the muppet one, tell a better story on alignments
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