Author Topic: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter  (Read 7734 times)

Offline Argent Fatalis

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[3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« on: April 18, 2016, 09:56:01 AM »
This entire ordeal below is mostly to hear your opinions as to what I should do with a 4th level Fighter I now have based upon the general ideas at hand.

How this came to be is really quite simple - the Dungeon Master was under the assumption psionics are overpowered and found that my Energy Mantle focused Ardent was too powerful. The rest of the party has little to no combat competency or focus, one being solely a social focused Rogue, another being a multiclass Cleric-Several-Random-Things who forgets she has spells at all unless told to use them, a traditional Druid player who is almost never present at a game, and a Crusader focused on a lockdown build who I helped. After discussing with the Dungeon Master at length, again, about the nature of the system itself (he is the sort who handwaves anything and everything in the game, and I feel as though we might as well just ignore the rules in the books when he is in control) and what it means to be a "caster" other than the traditional sorts or stereotypes.

In the end, I got nowhere with him and to make a point I would retire my previous character and only use core SRD, Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual I material to make a Fighter. Based on our discussion we had an agreement that he would stick to the material in the books (not tampering with or making special abilities, Armor Class, hit points, et cetera, up at whim) if I opted to make something less "overpowered", specifically a Fighter - with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization included by name.

It did not take him long to break his agreement; a session and a half.

Apparently sundering, tripping or disarming your enemy is inherently much too powerful versus just slashing them to death.

This leads me to where I am now, which is that I intend to set upon a few paths if possible. I enjoy the character, who is a Chaotic Good, and it ties in with the mostly Neutral-something-with-Evil-leanings party being the only way to meet the ends of the campaign's objectives. I just wish to no longer be tied to the Fighter class any further. I have no real ambitions of caring if he or the rest of the party thinks something is overpowered or not anymore.

(click to show/hide)

Consider anything fair game, but the only real limit is to keep the theme of a "crusading, divinely empowered zealot" and do more than swing a greatsword at it. Assume any retraining is not an option as the characters almost never have downtime short of being aboard a ship at sea.

Current Class Considerations
Cleric: There are no undead, at all, in the campaign but Turn Undead is still excellent for all the reasons we are aware. The buffs such as Bless, Shield of Faith, Shield Other, Divine Favor, Spiritual Weapon and the sort are all classic go to options. I intend to take a second Flaw in order to acquire Practiced Spellcaster to compensate for the lost levels. Then there's the general utility of it all and the thematic combination of a holy warrior aspect.

Crusader: There's another Crusader in the group but solely devoted to a lockdown build and defensive abilities. While there would be some overlap, I would specialize much more in the White Raven aspect and the auras, attack buffs and damage maneuvers. The notable resiliency of the class is a major draw because the rest of the party is outright terrible at disabling enemies or focusing the ones us two in the front are with.

Warblade: I really needn't even mention why this is an option between the mixture of the aforementioned White Raven maneuvers, Iron Heart school itself, and then the thematic option of Desert Wind being appropriate to the character. I am not building a charger or pouncer - not this time at least. It does have a bit of synergy with the Fighter levels and Intelligence options, but as you can see I am not wedded to any.

Prestige Classes: Any recommendation - sooner is better in terms of reward. Pious Templar is a major consideration as an example, as is Divine Crusader or Hellreaver.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 10:04:52 AM by Argent Fatalis »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2016, 05:30:14 PM »
It sounds like you'll have to be the party buffer and/or very "sneaky" batman.
Marshal comes to mind, even if it isn't one of your (=his) options.
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Offline Solo

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2016, 06:28:40 PM »
Are you sure you don't have several very important projects and assignments coming up over the next few months?
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Offline altpersona

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2016, 07:22:17 PM »
i suggest Expert.

effectively put your whole character in low gear while the rest of the party catches up to your power level.

or

bard, and sing rude songs about the other members.

or like Solo says.... wander off into mirkwood
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Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2016, 09:29:52 PM »
It sounds like you'll have to be the party buffer and/or very "sneaky" batman.
Marshal comes to mind, even if it isn't one of your (=his) options.

Generally my intent to provide martial or divine based benefits to help make the rest of the party slightly more valid while still pulling most of the combat weight. Marshal I was not too heavily considering because my Charisma score is just so low, but I will look it over for this character.

Are you sure you don't have several very important projects and assignments coming up over the next few months?

In a way, I wish it were so, but we all work together in the same location and see one another daily.

i suggest Expert.

effectively put your whole character in low gear while the rest of the party catches up to your power level.

or

bard, and sing rude songs about the other members.

or like Solo says.... wander off into mirkwood

The issue lies in the players themselves, not so much the classes. The Rogue - who has their highest in Intelligence and Charisma scores - is always fighting from afar and thus rarely getting Sneak Attack, the "Cleric-Whatever-Classes" after a year and some months still has no idea what they should be doing ever and refuses to take advice or read anything we tell them to, the Druid is usually hungover or drunk but is competent in either situation if he is present, and the Crusader fulfills his role very well, being the only player to even try to employ practical optimization.

So I am trying to find a way to provide auras, bonuses and buffs to make them all a bit more effective without changing too much.

As for Bard, possibly Divine Bard, simply because I am not going to be casting anything with a Difficulty Class anyway if I can help it and since my Charisma score is so weak. If I opted for such a thing, would it be that bad in this case?

Offline Solo

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2016, 11:25:38 PM »
In a way, I wish it were so, but we all work together in the same location and see one another daily.
You're not obligated to be in a game if you aren't enjoying yourself. If you really don't want to be there, let them know and withdraw.

It'd probably end better than playing a character the DM considers overpowered (again) and getting labeled a disruptive player.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2016, 12:56:21 AM »
Bard/Warblade with Song of the White Raven.  Deal your HP damage, get a few other nifty abilities via maneuvers, and buff your allies into competency. 
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Offline zugschef

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2016, 01:48:33 AM »
How is the druid not overpowered when the player is competent?

Offline ketaro

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2016, 01:58:44 AM »
I mostly agree with Solo. Enjoying the game and enjoying hanging out with those people are two different things that don't always coincide with each other. Forcing yourself to do one thing just so you can enjoy the other usually doesn't equal....a fun experience? :/

Otherwise, though, Bard would probably work out great for ya. Maybe dabble Swordsage a bit rather than Warblade. You've better Wisdom than Int and more maneuvers available *shrugs*

Offline Solo

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2016, 02:04:45 AM »
A +1 to attack and damage, plus a +2 to resist fear would break the game wide open.
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Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2016, 02:42:31 AM »
In a way, I wish it were so, but we all work together in the same location and see one another daily.
You're not obligated to be in a game if you aren't enjoying yourself. If you really don't want to be there, let them know and withdraw.

It'd probably end better than playing a character the DM considers overpowered (again) and getting labeled a disruptive player.

I have posed it in the past, but it leaves me without a game sadly. My reputation has always been that I "break the game", as the first ever character I played was a 5th level cleric who focused on the War and Law domains and quickly realized how ineffective healing was. I was supposed to be the party's healer, but at most I stabilized them and just went back to doing the same thing the two Fighters were.

How is the druid not overpowered when the player is competent?

Because the Dungeon Master just has an expectation that druids, sorcerers and wizards just "are powerful classes", clerics are "meant to heal", fighters are to "sword and shield tank", rangers always swing two weapons, only barbarians should Power Attack, bards are supposed to be magic jesters who are disruptively chaotic, rogues are only for skills and the rare flank, monks are too good when they Flurry of Blows, and paladins must be Lawful Stupid to not fall. If it came from a book that isn't the Player's Handbook, "it is probably too powerful".

It is just excused that the druid can end encounters with Entangle or Summon Swarm or that his badger can and does face tank small groups of monsters.

I mostly agree with Solo. Enjoying the game and enjoying hanging out with those people are two different things that don't always coincide with each other. Forcing yourself to do one thing just so you can enjoy the other usually doesn't equal....a fun experience? :/

Otherwise, though, Bard would probably work out great for ya. Maybe dabble Swordsage a bit rather than Warblade. You've better Wisdom than Int and more maneuvers available *shrugs*

I enjoy the players, barring the cleric who refuses to ever listen to anyone, and the Dungeon Master as a person is not the issue - just his style of play and being rooted in the perceptions above. There's almost nothing I can do but play a class he just attributes to being "just powerful" in order to get away with the typical "gimmicks" of doing more than hitting things.

As for Swordsage, I am mostly trying to still do some enabling of the party, hence why I was leaning toward White Raven based initiators. I love all of the classes in Tome of Battle, but I am still attempting to not make them entirely useless in combat. I had not really been considering Bard, but the sheer number of responses about it have made me certainly second guess discounting it.

A +1 to attack and damage, plus a +2 to resist fear would break the game wide open.

In previous games I have Iron Heart Surge'd the plot away when I broke free of a single boss' enchantment. Those bonuses are just too much in the hands of an entire party.

Offline Solo

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2016, 02:50:10 AM »
I have posed it in the past, but it leaves me without a game sadly.
Is the strongest argument to make for being in this game that you would otherwise have no game?
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Offline Kerrus

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2016, 03:01:57 AM »
My suggestion is for civil disobedience. Take a vow of nonviolence. It doesn't have to be an actual VoNV from the BoED or anything, but like, don't contribute to combat at all. If your GM asks you about it, claim not to know anything about it, or that you 'didn't want to make the other players feel bad'. Maybe your character's backstory includes a bit where apparently he pissed off an evil god, and now he's afraid to get involved in conflicts because he knows they'll smite him given the chance.

How much gold do you have? A boar (monster manual 1) is 10 gp. You can probably make the handle animal checks to train one, so buy like, ten of them and use them for combat. With light leather barding, a boar has AC of 18, even at 4th level that's pretty decent, and with ten of them you can basically maul all your enemies to death with a unstoppable tide of pig, and there's no reason you can't, with sufficient dosh, get like, chain shirt barding for your pigs, giving them absolutely ridiculous AC for their level.

And if any of them die you can butcher them for meat earning back your investment and more (seriously, one pig's worth of meat produces something like 250 gp).

A pig can know up to six tricks, which lets you cover attack, defense, stop berserking, and the follow me trick and so on, and they can carry a fairly decent load.

Remember to stock up on ropes and grappling hooks- maybe some pulleys so if you're spelunking you can rappel your army of pigs everywhere.

Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2016, 03:06:00 AM »
I have posed it in the past, but it leaves me without a game sadly.
Is the strongest argument to make for being in this game that you would otherwise have no game?

Short of being friends with them and the rest of the group, yes.

My suggestion is for civil disobedience. Take a vow of nonviolence. It doesn't have to be an actual VoNV from the BoED or anything, but like, don't contribute to combat at all. If your GM asks you about it, claim not to know anything about it, or that you 'didn't want to make the other players feel bad'. Maybe your character's backstory includes a bit where apparently he pissed off an evil god, and now he's afraid to get involved in conflicts because he knows they'll smite him given the chance.

<Amazing use of boars goes here.>

Between civil disobedience and pig invasions, both routes I had not considered. Thank you though.

Offline ketaro

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2016, 03:12:09 AM »
I change my vote to seconding being the pig herder.

Make your DM realize how silly he is being when the tactics available to a 4th level Commoner is outdoing a whole party of PCs <3

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2016, 03:17:58 AM »
For some reason, I'm thinking about the feat battle blessing.

Maybe play something else? Settlers of Catan sounds lovely.

Offline nijineko

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2016, 01:46:41 AM »
I change my vote to seconding being the pig herder.

Make your DM realize how silly he is being when the tactics available to a 4th level Commoner is outdoing a whole party of PCs <3

Chicken commoner.

Tell 'em the pigs sent ya.

Offline muktidata

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2016, 03:54:51 AM »
Are you sure you don't have several very important projects and assignments coming up over the next few months?

I believe this is the first post I have upvoted.
I appreciate the logical, cool-headed responses and the lack of profanity displayed by our community.

Offline muktidata

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2016, 04:01:15 AM »
I'd just give the DM what he wants:

CG Human Fighter 4

Human: Iron Will
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Level 1: Great Fortitude
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus: Longsword
Level 3: Power Attack
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: Longsword

Equipment:
+1 Longsword 2k
+1 Heavy Steel Shield 1k
+1 Breastplate 1k
Cloak of Resistance +1 1k
x2 Potion of Cure Light Wounds 100g
x1 Potion of Bull's Strength 300g
I appreciate the logical, cool-headed responses and the lack of profanity displayed by our community.

Offline Solo

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Re: [3.5e] Salvaging a 4th Level Fighter
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2016, 10:34:08 PM »
Power Attack? Munchkinry.
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