Author Topic: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder  (Read 285136 times)

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #160 on: April 19, 2019, 11:53:25 PM »
Bard has a finite number of attempts but a Succubus can spam till someone rolls a 1. I'll settle for a good tier 3 though.
Bard has a finite though large number of attempts, yes, unless he's going fullblown diplomancer, but that's generally been a T2 stunt. Charm Person does have more trouble with charming a whole room, a more limited list of targets, and I think there's only so long a Succubus can spam Charm Person before it gets suspicious. Not to mention that Charm Person can get detected, dispelled, noticed by Sense Motive, and once it expires people may recognize they weren't quite being their usual selves. But spamming endless Charm Person and Suggestion is still very abusable. I guess part of the question is how much will at-will Charm Person and Suggestion be abused beyond what a normal character could do in a day and how likely is that to bite you in the ass?

Quote
How is Magic Jar as an SLA supposed to work anyways? Not that it matters for Shadow Demon since there's a bit of pseudo-errata in Occult Adventures that says to replace all magic jar SLAs with (Greater) Possession SLAs.
The shadow demon jumps in and takes over the target's body until the spell expires or he is evicted. There is no actual magic jar used (the target's soul stays in the body) nor does the shadow demon have a corporeal body he leaves behind.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 02:44:55 PM by Power »

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #161 on: December 04, 2019, 07:11:47 AM »
Monster Tactician Inquisitor has been added as a red T2. The reason why Monster Tactician is red but Unchained Summoner is not is that Unchained Summoner still has access to Planar Binding, Gate, Lesser Create Demiplane, Teleport, Stinking Cloud, Create Pit, Wall of Ice/Stone, etc.

May be up to revision depending on how much spell access the Inquisitor gains through Summon Monster, considering the massive amount of ways you can expand the Summon Monster list.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 05:43:51 PM by Power »

Offline Nanashi

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 358
  • it means "he who has no name" in a foreign tongue.
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #162 on: February 02, 2020, 08:08:09 PM »
If Magus and Warpriest are red/weak for its tier, I think Mesmerist and especially Medium ought to be too.

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #163 on: February 12, 2020, 01:19:53 PM »
Magus is a red T3 because it has a very big slant towards being played as a bruiser or blaster, in T4 fashion, except with wizarding tricks on top. His own spell list is a bit too limited (with a zealous focus on blasting and martial stunts, and a small smattering of invisibility, teleports, minor illusions, and walls), missing most of the skill stunts, divinations, crafting, and spells to handle social situations. He has number of solid 1st through 3rd level spells, but after that it starts to fall off, although the Spell Blending arcana will give the Magus access to choice Wizard spells (it uncomfortably penalizes you for trying to get access to Wizard spells of your highest spell level though) for regular T3 status. The main reason I regard it as low T3 is really because people tend to go very martial on the Magus and tend not to develop the breadth of solutions that typify T3, although even without that it is still T3, just on the lower end.

Warpriest I guess I'll move back to regular T3, although I generally feel that Bard and Inquisitor do much better and that it is a shitty Cleric minus on the whole. It has no discounted spells, no domain spells, shitty blessings instead of domain powers, and a slew of buffs in places it doesn't really need. There is honestly no good reason to play a Warpriest over a Cleric unless that reason is "I think Clerics are overpowered." There's little reason to play a Warpriest over an Inquisitor either. Still the class works fine and it does get a decent selection of spells for a variety of situations.

Mesmerist is T3 because it has a solid versatility in its abilities. It might not be as potent as a martial but it has a solid variety of problem-solving tools thanks to its divinations, illusion series of spells, enchantment series of spells, and it has access to many of the best early spells (grease, sleep, color spray, obscuring mist, glitterdust, invisibility, pyrotechnics, silence, blur),  plus tricks, stares, and touch treatment. So basically it stays useful in a good variety of circumstances. Even against mindless enemies it can still use its stares (psychic inception stare power) and tricks to contribute as well as spells like grease, alter self, glitterdust/pyrotechnics/obscuring mist, defensive illusions, teleportations, solid fog, and shadow evocation/conjuration (mindless enemies tend to have shit will saves). If it's not PFS then Draconic Malice lets him hit anything living with mind-affecting fear spells and even without that he can use Psychic Inception to cast mind-affecting spells if desperate. The Mesmerist is also not brought down by psychic casting as much thanks to the fact that he has a solid bunch of spells that do not have an emotion component and he gets a bonus on will saves and he can remove shaken from himself as a swift action, giving him decent countermeasures against the usual weaknesses of psychics. Basically the Mesmerist isn't always strong (although he can do some very silly things with Mind Swap or trivialize an entire encounter with Confusion) but he does have the tools to consistently be a significant asset to the party, played right.

Looking over the Medium class, I'm listing a Medium that can't seance well as T4 and Mediums that can are kept as T3. I'd say that the Medium archetypes that do not have problems channeling spirits (Fiend Keeper, Uda Wendo, Relic Channeler, and Rivethun Spirit Channeler) are probably the best. The Medium does have the weaknesses of psychic classes and if you have trouble channeling spirits it nosedives hard. It's not even full BAB to compensate for its 4th level spellcasting.

Both Mesmerists and Mediums should probably invest in a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Logical Spell though.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 07:18:39 AM by Power »

Offline Nanashi

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 358
  • it means "he who has no name" in a foreign tongue.
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #164 on: February 16, 2020, 01:39:12 PM »
Amnesiac Psychic looks like it should be tier 1.

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #165 on: February 16, 2020, 07:51:29 PM »
That's an unreliable T1 that requires you to burn your swifts in combat for a decent chance at getting the spell you want. I suppose it's technically T1 but I'm not sure I'm comfortable listing something that janky as T1. Even red T1 seems to be a bit of a misstatement. The point of a T1 is that it's a combination of extreme power and extreme flexibility that enables the player to take care of any problem by himself, but a 35% chance of not getting the spell you need at the moment you need it introduces a bad element of unreliability in a tier that is typified by its ability to make a sure thing out of any challenge by pulling the perfect tools out of their hat. I think I'll pass on listing it.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 08:00:24 PM by Power »

Offline Nanashi

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 358
  • it means "he who has no name" in a foreign tongue.
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #166 on: February 16, 2020, 08:08:49 PM »
You missed two critical points to the archetype

Quote
Each day, for each spell level the amnesiac can cast, she retains a number of spells known equal to half the number listed on Table 1–8, rounded up. These spells must be selected from spells the amnesiac knew the previous day (including any spells she remembered using spell recollection; see below). The remainder of her spells known (half the number on Table 1–8, rounded down) become amnesia slots, which the amnesiac can use with her spell recollection ability (see below).
Quote
Once a spell has been remembered in this way, the amnesiac can cast it as one of her spells known for the rest of the day (even if she failed to cast the spell during the round in which she remembered it), unless spell recollection allowed her to cast a spell of a higher level than she would normally be able to cast.

Basically you can keep the spells you need for combat remembered as normal spells known and keep Amnesia casting for situational stuff. The penalty (lose action and 10% chance to lose spell slot) for failing amnesia casting out of combat isn't that painful compared to the gain (near spontaneous access to the entire Psychic spell list). Human alternate FCB also helps here since those spells aren't subject to being amnesiaed.

(it's also slightly lower than 35% in combat.
Quote
Because the mental stress of combat brings memories to the surface more easily, the amnesiac adds 1d10 to this roll’s result if she’s in combat when she attempts to recall a spell.
)

It is indeed very weird, and takes a few re-reads to understand. I'm surprised this was from a hardcover and is PFS legal.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 08:13:09 PM by Nanashi »

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #167 on: February 17, 2020, 05:33:33 AM »
And this only applies to the highest two spell levels the amnesiac is capable of casting. Well, it's a jank archetype, but it's true that using spell recollection out of combat to add it to spells known the next day is a dependable T1 stunt. Listed.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 06:24:52 AM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4930
  • Feeling the Bern
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #168 on: February 18, 2020, 02:59:49 PM »
these people have created a list of all the class archetypes, and rated them in a pair of ways (power and versatility).
add me on Steam- zook1shoe
- All Spells
- playground

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #169 on: February 18, 2020, 03:23:27 PM »
Yeah, seen it. Don't really agree with the list. I have a very different take on a number of the archetypes it lists.

I already posted a basic list of what I view to be the best archetypes for each class here.

Offline Nanashi

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 358
  • it means "he who has no name" in a foreign tongue.
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #170 on: February 18, 2020, 06:36:15 PM »
Most of those seem solid, but Magical Child is the best Vigilante archetype?!? It explicitly says Unchained Summoner.

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #171 on: February 18, 2020, 08:47:13 PM »
Unchained Summoner is still largely a discounted Wizard list with a few perks on top. Nowhere as good as the regular Summoner (which is an 8th level caster in disguise, really), but still solid.

Offline zook1shoe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4930
  • Feeling the Bern
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #172 on: February 18, 2020, 09:14:27 PM »
yeah, some of their choices are a little interesting. but it can be nice to see what everyone says and go from there. not to mention getting an opinion on ALL the archetypes, not just the older ones or best ones

@power, what's your pick for best unchained summoner archetype?
antipaladin archetype?

there's a couple more classes not on there, like most of the psychic casters.

has there been any archetypes to add to the list since mid-2018?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 09:23:27 PM by zook1shoe »
add me on Steam- zook1shoe
- All Spells
- playground

Offline Nanashi

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 358
  • it means "he who has no name" in a foreign tongue.
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #173 on: February 18, 2020, 11:43:25 PM »
I don't think there are any anti-paladin archetypes that aren't in some way a downgrade. They either loses spells, nerf the powerful Fiendish Bond (even if unintentionally from making them lawful) or, (in the case of fearmonger) are just plain old broken in the sense it doesn't work.

Offline zook1shoe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4930
  • Feeling the Bern
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #174 on: February 20, 2020, 01:48:48 AM »
thanks for the update to your archetype list through that link :)
add me on Steam- zook1shoe
- All Spells
- playground

Offline unmitigated

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • (she/they)
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #175 on: May 02, 2020, 10:37:59 PM »
Out of curiousity, I know that Unchained and Chained Rogues keep the same tier, is the same true for Unchained and Chained Eldritch Scoundrels?  The reason I ask is that with things like Skill Unlock (Heal) and Healer's Hands you can be N times per day healing N*floor(2N/5) hp and floor(2N/5) ability damage starting at 5th level as a full round action (where N is your level and ostensibly your heal and knowlege (planes) ranks in this case) for nearly no resources (or actually no resources with a 3000gp surgery vest), which while all unchained rogues can do it and it's not enough versatility to push to Tier 5 from Tier 5, I'd be curious if, once you combine it with magus-progression sor/wiz casting, it adds enough of an additional role to push from regular T3 to Blue T3
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 10:40:36 PM by unmitigated »

Offline zook1shoe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4930
  • Feeling the Bern
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #176 on: May 03, 2020, 03:26:19 AM »
with a single feat, you can get skill unlocks for any class.
add me on Steam- zook1shoe
- All Spells
- playground

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #177 on: May 04, 2020, 07:05:28 AM »
Heal optimization builds can be handy, but if you have sorc/wiz casting you can already just use wands of Infernal Healing for your regular healing needs. So what you're really getting out of this is the ability to treat ability damage with a full-round action and heal regular damage without needing to buy or craft wands. With a plain Heal skill you can already heal 4 ability damage in 1 day using long-term care for complete rest. All you need is a heal modifier of 5 (3 with healer's kit giving +2 circumstance bonus) and you can take 10 for that. That said, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue can easily hit T2 with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Dazing Spell and maybe a Planned Spontaneity feat. Planar Binding alone can be used to bind beings capable of granting wishes and go T1. Simulacrum, Mind Swap, and Possession spells can be similarly abused.

There are plenty of ways to raise a class into a higher tier simply by being more capable with the tools already at your disposal. Even a plain Paladin that uses a bow, gets a Skill Focus in UMD, trait for UMD as a class skill, and has a high cha modifier plus solid Diplomacy skill can end up in T3 just by carrying a wide swath of useful scrolls and wands. Because then you've got a character that's a solid party face, a strong damage dealer, a solid healer, and a capable spellcaster for the majority of your needs. Whatever the situation, he's probably going to contribute well. Actually with UMD alone you can break into T2 easily enough. Even something like playing a Core-only Monk can perform above the normal tier if you turn into a Shuriken tossing build, develop your skills carefully (stealth optimization, heal optimization, clever profession skill selection, getting diplomacy and/or bluff as wis-based skills, etc.), and start running around with adventuring items like an adamantine arrow to use as an improvised dagger to break down walls, grappling hooks with knotted ropes to trivialize climbing checks for the whole party, a +1 ghost touch net, ten-foot pole, various handy magical trinkets and alchemical items, and a number of potions and oils. This can contribute significantly above his tier and let him become a surprisingly useful and valued member of the party.

Generally speaking, a sufficiently skilled player will raise a class's performance by at least 1 tier. Kaelik earlier on in this thread demonstrated a high power Rogue build by using Eversmoking Bottles with the right means to see through smoke (ie. Ifrit race) so that you can full attack for sneak attacks by producing your own total concealment and performing full attacks with ranged weapons. Getting clever with UMD will typically also raise just about any class to a decent tier and even destroy campaigns depending on how far you take it. Optimizing bluff and diplomacy checks can also destroy campaigns outright. And so on.

That said, achieving tier shifts should generally not be a goal in and of itself as much as your goals should be covering your party's deficiencies and making sure that your character can stay relevant and useful in a wide variety of adventuring situations.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 11:17:11 AM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4930
  • Feeling the Bern
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #178 on: May 04, 2020, 01:02:04 PM »
The reverse is true, making bad choices can drop a class down.
add me on Steam- zook1shoe
- All Spells
- playground

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #179 on: May 05, 2020, 11:34:20 AM »
Most certainly. In fact a bad Wizard often operates around a T3 or even T4. Although with PF rewarding Sorcerers with extra damage per damage die, playing a blaster Wizard ceased being popular.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 03:12:01 PM by Power »