Author Topic: Another Reason Feats Seem Underpowered  (Read 9286 times)

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Another Reason Feats Seem Underpowered
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2016, 07:26:33 PM »
Try not to project motives onto me and then argue against the projected motives.  Avoid "you seem like" arguments and it won't sound like edition wars.

I actually have genuine interest in what in 3.5 would be worth converting without being redundant, referencing non-applicable rules to 5e, and doesn't just add pluses.  WotC has little interest in doing that because they don't see a profit margin in doing that.  They aren't going to steer 5e in a way that makes it more comparable to PF because there's no need to compete.  Better to have a more distinct product and leave the conversions to homebrewers and the DM's Guild so it won't affect perception of "default" play.

5e feats give players new options but very few of the feats are optimal in a numerical sense.  There are tactically optimal choices like Sentinel on a defender-style player with a polearm or Mage Slayer on a class that gets really big single hits in a spellcaster-heavy campaign or Shield Master on anyone using a shield with an open feat.  Sentinel is noteworthy for having a couple features of the 3.5 lockdown package in one feat.  Similarly, Great Weapon Master is Power Attack + Cleave for heavy weapons with a little more flexibility in triggering the Cleave part.  Magic Initiate covers a variety of feats in 3.5 no one ever took except in edge cases to qualify for something in a roundabout way, except it's actually a good choice in 5e because of the usefulness of cantrips.

Feats that tack on numbers beyond proficiency and an ability score are generally outside 5e's design focus.

Skill Focus has no need to exist in 5e.  The Skilled feat is there to gain proficiency and 5e skills scale themselves up via the proficiency mechanic.  Same argument applies to the +2/+2 skill feats.

Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will/Great Fortitude are obsoleted by the Resilient feat.  Resilient is numerically superior to what those feats do in 3.5 past level 5.  The only valid argument in 5e's context would be to get more saving throw bonuses.

Extra Turning wouldn't be a 5e feat at all because 5e moved away from class-specific feats.

Widen Spell would be valid on a short rest recharge and/or with a resource pool.  Since spell range can be affected by a feat (Spell Sniper) there's no huge problem with increasing spell areas.  There's more raw power in increasing areas though, so it needs a limiter.

There's an actual Counterspell reaction spell in 5e, and a feat would clash with the Abjurer wizard's proficiency bonus to the spell and the bard's Jack of All Trades giving half proficiency to the spell.  A check isn't even necessary if the spell being countered is equal to or below the level of the Counterspell.

There's no such thing as 3.5's SR in 5e, so you need to map that to a 5e mechanic before deeming it worth porting.

Leadership is valid, but the designers have outright said players should rarely ever control more than one character.  This the only feat you mentioned that could be replicated in 5e that's not redundant with an existing feature and doesn't blatantly contradict the system's design goals.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 07:31:40 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Another Reason Feats Seem Underpowered
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2016, 07:18:11 PM »
then argue against the projected motives.  Avoid "you seem like" arguments
I wasn't. That first part had nothing to do with the rest of it. Actually, I specifically didn't continue the "I like that feats don't affect balance" line of thought because I wasn't sure if you really meant it. Do you? Instead what I did was repeat my earlier general argument in a new way (since you had a lot of questions), and then give examples to specifically answer your questions.

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They aren't going to steer 5e in a way that makes it more comparable to PF because there's no need to compete.  Better to have a more distinct product and leave the conversions to homebrewers and the DM's Guild so it won't affect perception of "default" play.
That's called "abandoning your product" or perhaps admitting defeat to the ability to compete effectively with Piazu. Saying it's better to abandon the old material and just make new stuff is like saying you as a customer want the next version of windows to not work with any of your old programs. Only new, distinctive programs will work now! This would be a disastrous business move in a market that expects better. For WotC it would be a great business move if it really held such low expectations.

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Extra Turning wouldn't be a 5e feat at all because 5e moved away from class-specific feats.
Ew. What if you wished your class features were better? Don't play that class?

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There's no such thing as 3.5's SR in 5e, so you need to map that to a 5e mechanic before deeming it worth porting.
Just to be clear I wasn't saying all of the feats could be easily plopped into 5e, only that they were "worth it" in 3e. I would hope the general idea of a resistance to magic isn't too alien in 5e.

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Leadership is valid, but the designers have outright said players should rarely ever control more than one character.  This the only feat you mentioned that could be replicated in 5e that's not redundant with an existing feature and doesn't blatantly contradict the system's design goals.
In 3e that's still the case aside from fringe builds like beastmaster. Ironically Leadership is the only one mentioned that requires nerfs for anyone set on optimizing it.

The more I talk about this version update the more I find myself wanting the equivalent of a "Change Log". In DotA, when there is a new version, every single change is logged so that players who are already familiar with the game don't have to pour over pages and pages of numbers/text to see what the game will be like. All they really need is a few well lines saying "x has become y. While x worked like that, y now works like this." Indeed, to just not make a change log at all would be seen as very disrespectful to the millions of players that had already invested a lot of time and knowledge into the game. It would be the equivalent of saying "I don't care about you, my loyal players. I just want new ones. You loyal people can go do all of your work over again, like I care."

You seem knowledgable enough in 5e, would you be willing to make a such a change log? You could call it "The 5e handbook for 3e players." Or maybe such exact guide/change-log already exists. I looked for them and only saw a few one page guidelines when 5e came out -- nothing easy, exact, or comprehensive.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Another Reason Feats Seem Underpowered
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2016, 12:13:49 AM »
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I specifically didn't continue the "I like that feats don't affect balance" line of thought because I wasn't sure if you really meant it. Do you?

Yeah I do I actually mean that.  Other than the outliers I listed, feats are mostly about gaining versatility rather that direct power.  Versatility is power in D&D, and a PC with feats is stronger than a PC without feats, but I don't have to concern myself with a series of feats turning a 5e GWM Fighter into the equivalent of a 3.5 ubercharger or a series of feats turning the cleric (a still high-tier class in 5e) into 3.5 clericzilla.  A lot of popular or powerful 3.5 feats are 5e class/archetype features so there's an actual trade off of power to acquire them outside on a different class than the one that's supposed to be defined by said features.  Besides the examples illustrated earlier in the thread, the Skulker feat comes to mind.  It does nothing numerically to stealth.  It's tactically optimal for a rogue or a goblin PC though because it increases the options available for a ranger (UA revision)/rogue/goblin to use stealth by allowing other PCs to act as cover for stealth.  Those 3 can use stealth as a bonus action.  Stealth helps to gain advantage, which increases the likelihood of an attack landing and for a rogue enables Sneak Attack.

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That's called "abandoning your product" or perhaps admitting defeat to the ability to compete effectively with Piazu. Saying it's better to abandon the old material and just make new stuff is like saying you as a customer want the next version of windows to not work with any of your old programs. Only new, distinctive programs will work now! This would be a disastrous business move in a market that expects better. For WotC it would be a great business move if it really held such low expectations.

I can only answer anecdotally so you may not be satisfied with this answer.  Where I am, pathfinder has almost completely lost market share to 5e.  I think it's worth stepping back and looking at what parts of PF actually drew people in.  Again anecdotally, but it seems like PF's hyper-customization is not what held people's attention.  Rather, people use it in the context of the system they're playing because it's there and the system is built for it to some degree.  As I transitioned into 5e, I realized that 3.5's level of customization was something I used because it was there.  It's an absolute blast to do in 3.5 because to some degree you need to master that aspect of 3.5 to survive, and it gives you a lot more to talk about.  However, playing with a multitude of players who did not even have a concept of minmaxing and little desire to look through multiple books showed me that 3.5's (and PF's by extension) ivory tower design in customization is an obstacle for growing the scene, and at least where I am, the majority of the players do not care that 5e doesn't have the same amount of material to pull from.  For a lot of them, giving them a fighter, rogue, or monk that actually does what it claims to do on the cover makes them forget all about 3.5/PF customization that ultimately puts a band-aid over the hatchet wound of their old design.

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Ew. What if you wished your class features were better? Don't play that class?

In the particular case of Extra Turning, the equivalent feature to turn undead in 5e is Channel Divinity.  Channel Divinity restores on a 1 hour short rest in 5e, and Clerics gain additional uses as they level.  Every Cleric can use Channel Divinity to turn undead, but each domain also gets a thematic ability that draws from the same pool of uses.  Most of these domain-specific Channel Divinity options are quite powerful in the context of 5e.  I need help remembering other class feature feats from 3.5.  Things related to Stunning Fist are near-pointless in 5e because of the number of times a 5e Monk can use the feature per short rest (and per turn) and the fact that a lot of the old feats for Stunning Fist are built right into the feature.  Natural Spell doesn't need to exist because 5e Druids get it as a high-level class feature.  I've already mentioned several other 3.5 feats that are 5e class or archetype features now.

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I would hope the general idea of a resistance to magic isn't too alien in 5e.

The 5e Magic Resistance trait on monsters uses the advantage mechanic for saving throws.  Monsters that had SR in 3.5 have that trait instead.  It's much less powerful than SR was because the value of advantage is dependent on what number the d20 needs to roll for a success or a failure.  A creature might have that trait, but if it only has a +1 Wisdom and no proficiency to Wisdom saves, it's still going to struggle with something like Hold Monster.  A sorcerer can use the Heighten metamagic option to apply disadvantage, which in this case would negate the advantage of Magic Resistance and any other source of advantage the monster might have.  A diviner wizard can also just use their portent feature and say, "This creature uses this 3 I rolled at the beginning of the day for its saving throw, f- that magic resistance."  The warlock laughs and just keeps using his plethora of spells that avoid the saving throw mechanic all together, and the spell attack mechanic that avoids saving throws is not something unique to warlocks.  Warlocks just it more than most because of their reliance on Eldritch Blast.

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You seem knowledgable enough in 5e, would you be willing to make a such a change log? You could call it "The 5e handbook for 3e players." Or maybe such exact guide/change-log already exists. I looked for them and only saw a few one page guidelines when 5e came out -- nothing easy, exact, or comprehensive.

That would work best as a joint project with someone who still actively plays 3.5 to help remind me of 3.5 stuff.  Though I played it for years, I've cleared out a lot of my brain-space for 5e stuff since that's what I'm running.  It would be difficult to do a direct changelog as a one-man project because I think I've already demonstrated a few instances where the problem presented by a monster in both editions has a different solution based on the edition, and the solutions aren't analogs.  I need the dialogue to make the connections.  I did not give much thought about SR for example until actually challenged to think what the 5e equivalent was, which prompted me to remember how 5e casters get around Magic Resistance, demonstrating that a feat like Spell Penetration is unnecessary in 5e.  Some of these scenarios are things that are only apparent to me now that I've DMed 5e for 2 years.  Keep throwing stuff my way and we can parse things out.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 12:31:07 AM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Another Reason Feats Seem Underpowered
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2016, 02:52:53 PM »
As the first person to actually post a full CoDzilla build, I understand your first point. I don't however consider CoDzilla's a problem in a vaccum. Most of its power was wildshape and spells rather than Divine feats (even DMM).

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That's called "abandoning your product" or perhaps admitting defeat to the ability to compete effectively with Piazu. Saying it's better to abandon the old material and just make new stuff is like saying you as a customer want the next version of windows to not work with any of your old programs. Only new, distinctive programs will work now! This would be a disastrous business move in a market that expects better. For WotC it would be a great business move if it really held such low expectations.
I can only answer anecdotally so you may not be satisfied with this answer.  Where I am, pathfinder has almost completely lost market share to 5e.  I think it's worth stepping back and looking at what parts of PF actually drew people in.  Again anecdotally, but it seems like PF's hyper-customization is not what held people's attention.  Rather, people use it in the context of the system they're playing because it's there and the system is built for it to some degree.  As I transitioned into 5e, I realized that 3.5's level of customization was something I used because it was there.  It's an absolute blast to do in 3.5 because to some degree you need to master that aspect of 3.5 to survive, and it gives you a lot more to talk about.  However, playing with a multitude of players who did not even have a concept of minmaxing and little desire to look through multiple books showed me that 3.5's (and PF's by extension) ivory tower design in customization is an obstacle for growing the scene, and at least where I am, the majority of the players do not care that 5e doesn't have the same amount of material to pull from.  For a lot of them, giving them a fighter, rogue, or monk that actually does what it claims to do on the cover makes them forget all about 3.5/PF customization that ultimately puts a band-aid over the hatchet wound of their old design.
You are absolutely correct on all points here. Still, I do long for both. There are games out there that function on the n00b level, and have incredible depth. Carries in DotA with decent supports are an example.

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I need help remembering other class feature feats from 3.5.
Devoted Tracker, Swift ambusher certainly come to mind as necessary for making certain mediocre class features better (Special Mount and Skirmish, respectively).

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I would hope the general idea of a resistance to magic isn't too alien in 5e.
It's much less powerful than SR was because the value of advantage is dependent on what number the d20 needs to roll for a success or a failure.  A creature might have that trait, but if it only has a +1 Wisdom and no proficiency to Wisdom saves, it's still going to struggle with something like Hold Monster.  A sorcerer can use the Heighten metamagic option to apply disadvantage, which in this case would negate the advantage of Magic Resistance and any other source of advantage the monster might have.  A diviner wizard can also just use their portent feature and say, "This creature uses this 3 I rolled at the beginning of the day for its saving throw, f- that magic resistance."  The warlock laughs and just keeps using his plethora of spells that avoid the saving throw mechanic all together, and the spell attack mechanic that avoids saving throws is not something unique to warlocks.  Warlocks just it more than most because of their reliance on Eldritch Blast.[/quote]Ew. Binary effect resistance is a worrisome thing with even half-decent spells (charm/hold monster). 3e had descriptors so things could be immune to Mind-Affects, everything powerful was expected to have a save (and Irresistable spell was 3rd party), and SR was expected to be a pain to overcome. SR, of course, wasn't enough but its easily fixed in my sig since the underlying mechanic is fairly sound (AoE's are the only part that may or may not have been an oversight).

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That would work best as a joint project with someone who still actively plays 3.5 to help remind me of 3.5 stuff.  ...  Keep throwing stuff my way and we can parse things out.
Sure. I tried but found it difficult to dive into 5e for many reasons, many the porting or lack thereof. I don't mind continuing over PMs/skype etc. I suppose some basics would be a spell conversion template (they are still the main source of power, right?), some gameplay concept conversions, a monster conversion template, a class conversion template, feats would have to be done individually, a prereq conversion template, item conversions might be templatable...

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Another Reason Feats Seem Underpowered
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2016, 06:26:40 PM »
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Ew. Binary effect resistance is a worrisome thing with even half-decent spells (charm/hold monster). 3e had descriptors so things could be immune to Mind-Affects, everything powerful was expected to have a save (and Irresistable spell was 3rd party), and SR was expected to be a pain to overcome. SR, of course, wasn't enough but its easily fixed in my sig since the underlying mechanic is fairly sound (AoE's are the only part that may or may not have been an oversight).

The monsters themselves have condition immunities instead of the way 3.5 does it where the spells have descriptors and certain monster types have immunities to said descriptors.  Appendix A of the 5e PHB covers the condition definitions, and the majority of control spells have these conditions coded into them.  Additionally, most save-or-sucks allow repeated saves to end the effects early, so they're not nearly so binary.

Particularly magic-resistant monsters have saving throw proficiencies in addition to their Magic Resistance trait and have lower HP to compensate.  Martials come in handy for those monsters.  A balor is not outright immune to save-or-suck effects, but the odds it will fail a saving throw against a spell that could disable it with a Str +14, Con+12, Wis +9, Cha +12 saving throw line with advantage on saving throws against magic is slim against an expected spell save DC of 19 by the level one would expect to fight a balor.  If that's not enough, there's the legendary resistance mechanic where an exceptional creature can choose to pass a saving throw it would fail X times per day.  The end result is all this stuff works on the same mechanic, the saving throw roll, and it's just a matter of probability doing its thing.  On the player's end, it's only one defense to get through, even though several mechanics are in play on the DM's side.

Devoted Tracker:  The paladin's special mount feature is disguised as the spell Find Steed.  A paladin's Aura of Courage (+Cha to saves for the paladin and allies within 10 ft.) covers the mount pretty well and the feat Mounted Combatant leaves only Constitution save aoes as a significant threat to a mount.  Depending on the oath archetype, the paladin may have additional auras to protect his mount, such as immunity to fear for Devotion and resistance to damage from spells for Ancients.

Swift Ambusher:  There's no skirmish in 5e, and nothing has immunity to Sneak Attack or equivalent abilities.  Undead, plants, constructs, etc. can be the victims of Sneak Attack with no special setup compared to other monster types.  Creature types do not come with any inherent immunities or resistances, and instead such things are written into the damage resistance, damage immunity, and condition immunity lines of monsters on a case-by-case basis.  Resistances and immunities are generally confined to the damage types listed in the PHB (with caveats for weapons) and the conditions listed in Appendix A.

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Sure. I tried but found it difficult to dive into 5e for many reasons, many the porting or lack thereof. I don't mind continuing over PMs/skype etc. I suppose some basics would be a spell conversion template (they are still the main source of power, right?), some gameplay concept conversions, a monster conversion template, a class conversion template, feats would have to be done individually, a prereq conversion template, item conversions might be templatable...

Top tier classes are still spellcasters, but spell list limitations define and balance the casters in a much more strict way in 5e.  Wizards have a better spell list than every other caster, and without that spell list, their features would not bridge the gap.  Similarly, the bard is higher on the tier list than its spell list would suggest because Magical Secrets lets it steal from every other class.  Druids fall off considerably past the most-typically played low levels because they have the weakest spell list of the full-casters and wildshape scales poorly, such that by level 10, the half-caster paladin is more desirable than the full-caster druid.  Eldritch Knight, the gish archetype of the fighter is actually lower tier than the warblade-equivalent Battle Master because the maneuvers are generally better than the level of spells available to the Eldritch Knight archetype, and Eldritch Knight is still considered good even though the Battle Master is better.

My own experience says don't worry about porting until you've actually played 5e awhile so you have a feel for what 5e is trying to do and what it offers.  Classes are packed with features, especially at low levels, and you get a lot of customization from multiclassing as opposed to feats.  Trying to force it to be 3.5+ is an unsatisfying experience and you're better off continuing to play 3.5 if you want to customize via feats and prestige classes.  After 2 years of DMing and seeing the combinations possible via multiclassing, I don't think prestige classes are necessary at all for 5e.  Archetypes fill in a lot of the mechanics prestige classes used to, so I'd be more inclined to port a prestige class as an archetype of a base class if I could not achieve the same mechanical feel via multiclassing.

You don't want to do a straight conversion of a 3.5 monster to a 5e monster, it just won't work in a formulaic way.  The best thing to do is take the CR of the monster from 3.5 and then use the 5e DMG's charts formulas for creating a monster of that CR, using the recommended adjustments for offensive and defensive utilities.  The best you could hope for is code that would take a monster's 3.5 CR and spit out its expected damage per round, hit points, AC, attack bonus, spell/effect DC with modifiers like "75% HP if >2 saving throw proficiencies" and sliders that would balance things like attack bonus and expected damage per round that have an inverse correlation to one another when maintaining a particular CR.  You would still have to reverse engineer for what ability score modifiers, number/type of attacks, etc. to get to the recommended number ranges.

I'll repost my part of a PM conversation when Bhu consulted me for spell conversion.

On how to approach conversion.  The context is to look at existing 5e spells as balancing points:
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For buffs, you can go with multiple weak effects that combine into a strong combination (i.e. Haste), a strong effect with no concentration (i.e. Blink), a strong movement effect with a better movement type that requires concentration (i.e. Fly), a defensive aura effect with 1 strong bonus and 1-2 weaker benefits (i.e. Beacon of Hope), or an offensive aura (i.e. Crusader's Mantle).  You can also downgrade effectiveness of any of these buffs for increased duration (compare Haste's offensive benefit to Elemental Weapon).

Haste is generally the most desirable 3rd level buff for offense.  Balance any offensive buff against what Haste would provide.  In other words, it should add about the same amount as an average weapon attack, independent of stuff like superiority dice and smites.  If it adds more damage than that, don't give it extra benefits like Haste has.

Fly has both an evasive component and a speed component to it.  Anything based solely on movement like Fly should make the character about as evasive.  An example I could think of would be a spell that gave a burrow speed.  Without debating the relative merits of each in specific situations, a burrow speed can much more effectively hide you from attack than a fly speed can, so a spell giving a burrow speed shouldn't be giving double speed to a character.  If the spell only gives speed without giving evasion, it should probably be more than the 60 ft. Fly gives, it should not require concentration, or it should last longer than 1 minute.

Beacon of Hope's major effect is the advantage to Wisdom saving throws.  Advantage to death saving throws is great for keeping character's from permanently dying but you're in a really bad situation if you're using the spell specifically for that.  The maximum healing portion is kind of nice but healing in combat in 5e is about as good an idea as it is in 3.5, so it's a negligible bonus.  I could see a similar spell that gave advantage to Constitution saving throws and resistance to poison damage.  Poison damage isn't always applicable to an encounter, but when the resistance does matter, it's probably saving you from death more so than both of the minor effects of Beacon of Hope, so the theoretical spell would not need a second minor effect.

An offensive aura buff should be comparable to Crusader's Mantle.  If it offers more damage, it needs to be limited in some way such as making it a once per turn effect for each buffed character.  If it offers less, remove concentration, increase duration, or make it a bonus action to cast.

For aoe damage, a 3rd level aoe should average about 28 damage per target (i.e. Fireball, Lightning Bolt).  If the average damage is lower, you can tack on an extra effect (i.e. Tidal Wave averages 18 per hit but knocks prone).  If the damage is significantly higher than 28 per target, it should probably deal no damage on a successful saving throw or be an easily resisted damage type like poison.

Specific examples Bhu asked for:
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Keen Edge
3rd level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
You touch a nonmagical weapon.  Until the spell ends, that weapon becomes a magic weapon that critically hits on a roll of 19 or 20.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the weapon critically hits on a roll of 18 to 20.

Divine Favor is a 1st level spell on the paladin list.

Divine Power doesn't translate too well to 5e since proficiency replaced BAB and everyone has the same one.  If I were to make it 3rd level, I'd probably make it a transmutation and base it on Haste.  Haste replicates Expeditious Retreat and Shield of Faith while providing a unique bonus, so I took 5e Divine Favor and Heroism for the minor effects of Divine Power.

Divine Power
3rd level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a holy symbol)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Calling upon your divine patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat.  Until the spell ends, your weapon attacks deal an extra 1d4 damage.  When you take the attack action, you may make one extra attack.  You gain temporary hit points at the start of each of your turns equal to your spellcasting ability modifier.  When the spell ends, you lose any remaining temporary hit points from the spell.

5e Magic Weapon has scaling built into it, so I'm not sure what Greater Magic Weapon should do.

Righteous Might needs to combine the effect of Enlarge, Shield of Faith, and multiple-turn Blade Ward.  That would be really hard to justify as a 3rd level spell.  The conversion wouldn't be too hard but it would be a 5th level spell at its weakest.  The original PHB version (as opposed to the SRD version) would be 7th or so.

Most monsters that used to have spell resistance now have advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects.  Paladins have a 5th level aura spell, Circle of Power, that does that with a 10 minute duration.  If you want a 3rd level version of that, it would probably look like:

Spell Resistance
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a holy symbol)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Until the spell ends, you have advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Spell Immunity is kinda replicated by Globe of Invulnerability in 5e, a 6th level spell.  A 3rd level version would basically be Globe of Invulnerability scaled down to block 2nd level or lower spells.  If you wanted it to move with you, it would probably make it one spell level higher, so a 3rd level version would only block 1st level spells and cantrips.

True Strike is a (crappy) cantrip in 5e already.  The spirit of the spell in 3.5 is basically to not miss.  The closest effect to "never miss" I can think of is the ranger's Lightning Arrow spell, which is a bonus action buff to 1 weapon attack at 3rd level.  Lighting Arrow can miss but still deals half its damage and its splash damage on a miss.  That wouldn't be hard to create something with since it only takes a few wording changes.
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Re: Another Reason Feats Seem Underpowered
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2016, 11:23:23 AM »
I guess what I meant to ask is, can you make DC's auto-succeed for anything not heavily optimizing its saves in 5e like you can in 3.5? Once you can do that, there's really no significant barrier to castes owning everything.

Is it bad that I look at those and long for the 3.5 versions? As much as I nerf spells, I love me some all day buffs.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Another Reason Feats Seem Underpowered
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2016, 01:06:07 PM »
Can you make player DCs too high for monsters?  It depends on the monsters.  Using only what a player has absolute control over, DCs can get to 19.  If you use Hold Monster on a 6 Wisdom creature with no proficiency that has no legendary resistance or immunity to paralyzation, it cannot pass because natural 20s have no special properties for success in 5e outside critical hits and death saving throws.  Natural 1s also have no special property for failures outside attack rolls and death saving throws, but I cannot recall a monster with a +18 saving throw.

Monsters have recommended DCs for their CR, but you can increase DCs at the expense of lowering some of the creature's defenses to keep the average of offensive CR and defensive CR at the same final CR.  I believe the highest saving throw available to a player involves Aura of Courage from a level 6+ paladin with 20 Charisma.  At level 17, a player could have +6 proficiency +5 ability score +5 paladin's Aura of Courage for +16 to the saving throw before any temporary buffs.

There are a couple all day or virtually-all day buffs.  Off the top of my head, Mage Armor is 8 hours with no concentration.  Foresight is 8 hours with no concentration for a 1 minute casting time, and it's cast-able on others.  A powerful all day buff in 5e is going to be in the 7th to 9th level range and probably have an increased casting time so it must be pre-cast.

I'm making a thread to consolidate these conversations in the 5e board: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=17725.0
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA