Author Topic: Source vs. Save  (Read 3820 times)

Offline Bronzebeard

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Source vs. Save
« on: November 23, 2015, 07:06:39 AM »
A sort of open question towards everyone:



Assuming each character is armed with six saves - each tied for each ability (Str. Dex. Con. Int. Wis. & Cha.), what sources of damage or attack would you associate with each save?

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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2015, 01:13:58 PM »
This is probably going to be hard to split these in a way that is fair and doesn't lead to one stat being too good/bad. Still, here's a start:

Str: Trip attacks, bull rushes, grapples, entanglement.

Dex: Damage spells with a save for half, traps, avoiding stuff (Web), possibly balancing (like Grease, unless skills handle that). Possibly a feat to apply to trips and entanglement in lieu of Str.

Con: Poisons, disease, corruption, anything that physically hits you that you don't dodge.

Int: Illusions. This one is a hard one, and you could argue straight-faced that any Int-based thing could be covered by Wis. This will be a hard one to balance against the others. One route might be to make a robust skill system and to tie bonus skills to Int.

Wis: Possibly things based on perception (see, it can steal illusions from Int). Things based on mentally toughing stuff out. Still, Cha makes good sense for a lot of these...

Cha: Charms, compulsions, fear.
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Offline faeryn

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2015, 03:53:26 PM »
Str: Anything that involves brute force...

Dex: Basically keep this where it is with Reflex Saves as is...

Con: Ailments of any kind... this would be poisons, deseases, bleeding, drowning, suffication, various death effects, extreme damage...

Int: Int saves might very well be against yourself... pretty much those last second "are you sure?" Situations before a PC inadvertantly kills themself doing something they know they shouldnt... But in the sense of damage they could be against illusions, having the knowledge and insight to identify the differences between what is real and what is not.

Wis: Combat non-physical spell effects and as a pre-emptive protection against certain natural poisons (such as  Wis save before ingesting a pottentially poisonous berry)

Cha: mostly for social conflicts... and countering enchantments... Charisma saves would be for your force of personality and influence.


Pre-emptive saves may seem out of place to many, but we seem to forget that the characters would likely have knowledge of things that the player might not consider at the time. A Druid would be knowledgable of most vegitation and be unlikely to eat a poisonous berry, and might even attempt to stop an ally who is about to eat one.

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2015, 04:23:01 AM »
@RobbyPants

Corruption? What do you mean by corruption?
Is Int, Wis and Cha interchangeable in your opinion?


@faeryn

Str - Like?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@All

Do you agree that Dex save can be used instead of AC?
And how would you treat damage sources? (Fire? Sonic? Lightning? Radiant? there's more...)

Offline faeryn

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 04:05:43 PM »
@RobbyPants

Corruption? What do you mean by corruption?
Is Int, Wis and Cha interchangeable in your opinion?


@faeryn

Str - Like?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@All

Do you agree that Dex save can be used instead of AC?
And how would you treat damage sources? (Fire? Sonic? Lightning? Radiant? there's more...)

STR would be stuff like Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, etc... basically attempts to physically disable you. However, there are many such attacks that I honestly feel should be available to both STR & DEX... Trip you could STR save to stand firm and stop their weapon (possibly taking a little damage) or you could DEX save to maintain your balance. A Bull Rush you could again STR save to stand firm taking the full force of the attack but not moving an inch, or your could DEX save to dodge out of the way causing your opponent to charge past you.

Dex instead of AC... depends on how you calculate it... is the save vs the damage or vs the attack roll? can the attack roll easily exceed Dex+20? will bonuses to AC (such as nat AC, armor, shield, Monk's AC, etc...) be a factor in the roll?

Damage from Energy types... that could possibly be under Wis &/or Int

Honestly Wis & Int really are interchangeable... The only real difference between the two would be the "how & why" fluff stuff... If your highly knowledgeable about a threat you would likely possess some knowledge on how to avoid or lessen the threat (INT) or if you were highly experienced with a threat you would similarly be experienced with methods of surviving the threat (WIS)... That's really what Int & Wis boils down to Knowledge vs Experience... but in the end they both apply to the same things...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 04:09:04 PM by faeryn »

Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 10:39:12 AM »
However, there are many such attacks that I honestly feel should be available to both STR & DEX... Trip you could STR save to stand firm and stop their weapon (possibly taking a little damage) or you could DEX save to maintain your balance. A Bull Rush you could again STR save to stand firm taking the full force of the attack but not moving an inch, or your could DEX save to dodge out of the way causing your opponent to charge past you.
Then how would you differentiate them? Or should you allow players to choose at will? Maybe it depends on class? race? acquired feat?

Dex instead of AC... depends on how you calculate it... is the save vs the damage or vs the attack roll? can the attack roll easily exceed Dex+20? will bonuses to AC (such as nat AC, armor, shield, Monk's AC, etc...) be a factor in the roll?
Oooh definitaly vs. to hit. Damage is negated by DR/ or by heals. The Ref' specifiaclly replace the AC as a emphasizing dodge thing.
Armor, Shield, Natural AC and the likes should (I think) be treated as DR/ but I'm not 100% on that.

Damage from Energy types... that could possibly be under Wis &/or Int

Honestly Wis & Int really are interchangeable... The only real difference between the two would be the "how & why" fluff stuff... If your highly knowledgeable about a threat you would likely possess some knowledge on how to avoid or lessen the threat (INT) or if you were highly experienced with a threat you would similarly be experienced with methods of surviving the threat (WIS)... That's really what Int & Wis boils down to Knowledge vs Experience... but in the end they both apply to the same things...
Hmmm... either I'm not agreeing with you on this, or I don't understand. But please note that I'm not trying to discuss the inherent implications of how a mortal being reacts. Simply trying to make sense of implications of rules. I mean, if Wis and Int are so similar, why not use a unified score (not taking into account the different spellcasting ability). I mean, Wis and Int are considered brains. So use ability "brains". No?

In other words - I target someone with crippling necrotic gripe. Should he save based on brains?

Offline faeryn

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2015, 08:37:34 PM »
However, there are many such attacks that I honestly feel should be available to both STR & DEX... Trip you could STR save to stand firm and stop their weapon (possibly taking a little damage) or you could DEX save to maintain your balance. A Bull Rush you could again STR save to stand firm taking the full force of the attack but not moving an inch, or your could DEX save to dodge out of the way causing your opponent to charge past you.
Then how would you differentiate them? Or should you allow players to choose at will? Maybe it depends on class? race? acquired feat?

Any of the options you suggested would work pretty well... it just depends on how much control you wish to impose over you players in regards to this... At will would be the most open clearly, Class & Race dependencies would be more restrictive but non-intrusive, whereas feat requirements would come with the feat cost making the player unable to take another feat for something else that may be more important to their class... A high Dex rogue would be more inclined to dodge such physical attacks with a Dex role, whereas a high STR barbarian would be more inclined to try and stop the attack with their own strength, though a nimble Elf Fighter may be equally inclined to take either route... So it's really up to you...

Dex instead of AC... depends on how you calculate it... is the save vs the damage or vs the attack roll? can the attack roll easily exceed Dex+20? will bonuses to AC (such as nat AC, armor, shield, Monk's AC, etc...) be a factor in the roll?
Oooh definitaly vs. to hit. Damage is negated by DR/ or by heals. The Ref' specifiaclly replace the AC as a emphasizing dodge thing.
Armor, Shield, Natural AC and the likes should (I think) be treated as DR/ but I'm not 100% on that.

Well the question still remains, can an attack roll easily exceed Dex+20... if so then Dex instead of AC would require some form of additional bonus to keep inline with Attack rolls... Personally I like the idea since in the existing system AC can easily far exceed Attack rolls making it near impossible to land a hit at late game in a game with optimizers... but if using Dex as AC results in the opposite then that creates another issue that's just as bad if not worse... the inability to avoid being hit... of course with all other sources of AC acting as DR that issue is mitigated to a degree, but that could easily result in combat turning into death by a thousand tiny scratches...

Damage from Energy types... that could possibly be under Wis &/or Int

Honestly Wis & Int really are interchangeable... The only real difference between the two would be the "how & why" fluff stuff... If your highly knowledgeable about a threat you would likely possess some knowledge on how to avoid or lessen the threat (INT) or if you were highly experienced with a threat you would similarly be experienced with methods of surviving the threat (WIS)... That's really what Int & Wis boils down to Knowledge vs Experience... but in the end they both apply to the same things...
Hmmm... either I'm not agreeing with you on this, or I don't understand. But please note that I'm not trying to discuss the inherent implications of how a mortal being reacts. Simply trying to make sense of implications of rules. I mean, if Wis and Int are so similar, why not use a unified score (not taking into account the different spellcasting ability). I mean, Wis and Int are considered brains. So use ability "brains". No?

In other words - I target someone with crippling necrotic gripe. Should he save based on brains?

I don't think you misunderstood actually... that's pretty much an accurate assessment... Int & Wis are mechanically identical... they only really differ in interpretation and RP... However, if you want a mechanical difference, Wisdom would only really provide respite from the immediate and foreseeable threats, while Int could be used in more delicate tasks such as disarming a trap as an alternative to Dex. Or, Wis is more beneficial in a natural environment and Int is more beneficial in a man-made environment

Offline faeryn

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2015, 10:30:41 PM »
Something that just occurred to me... Int save vs Wis save could be based on the source of the spell effect... Divine spells using Wis saves and Arcane using Int saves

Offline Samwise

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2015, 10:57:33 PM »
Something that just occurred to me... Int save vs Wis save could be based on the source of the spell effect... Divine spells using Wis saves and Arcane using Int saves

I was contemplating the same thing while reading this thread, relating back to this from the AD&D DMG:
Quote
A character under magical attack is in a stress situation, and his or her own will force reacts instinctively to protect the character by slightly altering the
effects of the magical assault. This protection takes a slightly different form
for each class of character. Magic-users understand spells, even on an unconscious level, and are able to slightly tamper with one so as to render it
ineffective. Fighters withstand them through sheer defiance, while clerics
create a small island of faith. Thieves find they are able to avoid a spell's
full effects by quickness . . .

While that ties it more to class prime requisites (primary ability score), it also suggests that "knowing" the type of magic allows it to be countered.
It also relates to other things that have been suggested.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2015, 03:20:14 PM »
Corruption? What do you mean by corruption?
Anything that would be physically corrupting. The only rules I can think of off the top of my head for that are the OA/UA corruption rules, or the updated ones in Heroes of Horror. Certain attacks from undead or fiends that aren't overtly poisons or diseases might count, too.


Is Int, Wis and Cha interchangeable in your opinion?
I think it's hard to define them in a way that makes them distinctly useful for saves. Really, any division you make on what your ability score are or do is arbitrary. There's nothing stopping someone from splitting Dex into Agility and Reflex or Aim and Balance. There's nothing stopping someone from combining Str and Con into Might.

As it stands, Dex is a pretty solid stat that anyone can benefit from having. Con is one that is nearly mandatory for everyone else. Cha can be dumped by everyone who isn't a spontaneous caster or doesn't have some weird niche feat. Similarly, it's going to be hard to design saves on these already-existing ability scores where someone doesn't end up saying "Oh, just dump Int. You're not a wizard or beguiler, and the Int save doesn't do anything important, anyway.".

This type of approach would probably work better in a system designed from scratch, where the abilities could be created from the ground up so that they are all equally useful.


Do you agree that Dex save can be used instead of AC?
And how would you treat damage sources? (Fire? Sonic? Lightning? Radiant? there's more...)
If you're making a somewhat new game based on d20, this might work. It will fall apart if you're trying to plug it into 3E as-is.
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Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2015, 04:21:07 PM »
...As it stands, Dex is a pretty solid stat that anyone can benefit from having. Con is one that is nearly mandatory for everyone else. Cha can be dumped by everyone who isn't a spontaneous caster or doesn't have some weird niche feat. Similarly, it's going to be hard to design saves on these already-existing ability scores where someone doesn't end up saying "Oh, just dump Int. You're not a wizard or beguiler, and the Int save doesn't do anything important, anyway.".

This type of approach would probably work better in a system designed from scratch, where the abilities could be created from the ground up so that they are all equally useful....

This!  :clap
This here is exactly it!

I know that trying to tweak the system is quite a chore and might "fall apart" midway. But I deem it highly necessary:

Both dex and con are highly sought after. str and wis are a tad important and cha is almost always a dump stat.
Maybe, just maybe, some items can be swapped around so that the abilities are more or less important for every character (excluding each class's own ability that fuels it's powers.).
The most obvious one, in my eyes, is granting cha as the save against Domination, Thrall and Charm spells.

Your thoughts?

Offline faeryn

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2015, 06:15:00 PM »
For a simple list that would make all 6 stats important to everyone.

STR: Save vs Physical forces

Dex: Save vs Environmental forces/Dodge

Con: Save vs Poison/Bleed/Disease/Death

Wis: Save vs Divine Magic (non-mind affecting)

Int: Save vs Arcane Magic (non-mind affecting)

Cha: Save vs Mind affecting forces

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2015, 12:21:16 AM »
Cha: Save vs Mind affecting forces
Grab Mind Blank (or whatever other cheap versions there are), continue dumping Cha. :P
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Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: Source vs. Save
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2015, 10:50:45 AM »
For a simple list that would make all 6 stats important to everyone.

STR: Save vs Physical forces

Dex: Save vs Environmental forces/Dodge

Con: Save vs Poison/Bleed/Disease/Death

Wis: Save vs Divine Magic (non-mind affecting)

Int: Save vs Arcane Magic (non-mind affecting)

Cha: Save vs Mind affecting forces

Very close to what Robby suggested initially:

STR vs. pull/push/trip. Probably grapple.

DEX vs. being hit, balance. Should also mention initiative rolls.

CON vs. bleeding, wound, poison, diseases and toxins.
I don't use the 3 rolls for dying check. It doesn't add anything. But I do think fatigue should factor somewhere in there.

CHA vs. compulsion, charm, mind affecting, bluff? diplomacy?


There is no, as of now, any other implication, or... significance to the (virtual) separation of divine and arcane. Non at all. So, why should we use a different save?

e.g. A dispel magic casting would once require wis save and another time an int save and would yield different results.
A problem.