Flat-footedness -- when does it end?

[sirpercival]

OK, we need to settle this once and for all.  I've gotten responses split 50/50, so let the discussions begin!

If I beat you in initiative, on my turn you are flat-footed.  I daze you, so you can take no actions on your turn.  When it is my turn in round 2, are you still flat-footed?  You have taken no actions, but your initiative count has come and gone.

SRD (condition summary):

Flat-Footed

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

SRD (initiative, combat):

Flat-Footed

At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

WOTC glossary:

flat-footed

Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

[Childe]

Since "act (specifically, before your first turn in the initiative order)" seems to trump "not yet acted," and since two of the three sources you've cited lean toward the initiative-based definition, while the first could be read as indicating an action-based definition, I would say it is overridden.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you get dazed effectively you don't have a turn.

So I say you stay flatfooted.

[BG_Josh]

You get your turn so you drop flatfooted.  You just don't get to take actions.

Think like this, does the situation prevent anything other than actions that may happen in a round?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Dazed wouldn't work, but (obviously) pulling initiative shenanigans does.

[Nachofan99]

Why stop at simply Daze?  Stun would do the same, as would I guess a couple of other status conditions just to be exhaustive.  In any case, the RAW is pretty clear regarding the initiative pass.

[Kethrian]

I would have to agree.  Once your turn comes around, you are no longer flat-footed, because the game technically would give you your turn to take any possible actions (in this case, none), and then continue on to the next person's turn.  You still had your turn in which to act, but were merely unable to capitalize on it due to being denied actions.  It would be no different than someone who chooses to delay on their first turn.  They did not take any actions, but are no longer flat-footed.

[Nachofan99]

Yep.  Same thing as (not being Dazed/Stunned/whatever) and just saying "You know what, this turn Imma just do nothing."  You're no longer Flat-Footed.

[Jackinthegreen]

By RAW it seems to be that once your initiative comes by, you're no longer FF.  Yet, it seems a bit odd that a character who gets denied -any- action would be able to benefit from a Dex mod on AC or make AoO's save for those with special abilities like UD.  In effect, one could say the character was denied initiative altogether.  It's not the same as delaying because it's a forced effect.

I'm not yet sure which way I'd handle it to be honest.  I'm leaning more towards the denied character still being FF mostly due to how it's more representative of getting the drop on an enemy.  It's a major tactical advantage to act first after all.

[sirpercival]

The reason for this question is a build I made (while the boards were down) for a Factotum spamming Iaijutsu Focus with Boomerang Daze and an aptitude quickrazor.

I'm leaning towards a RAW interpretation of flat-footedness ending on your initiative count whether or not you've taken any actions... but I think it SHOULD be that it doesn't.  If someone gets the drop on you and then dazes you to the point where you can't act, are you going to be able to defend yourself very well, or are you going to still be disoriented and unable to get your bearings?

[Mooncrow]

The reason for this question is a build I made (while the boards were down) for a Factotum spamming Iaijutsu Focus with Boomerang Daze and an aptitude quickrazor.

I'm leaning towards a RAW interpretation of flat-footedness ending on your initiative count whether or not you've taken any actions... but I think it SHOULD be that it doesn't.  If someone gets the drop on you and then dazes you to the point where you can't act, are you going to be able to defend yourself very well, or are you going to still be disoriented and unable to get your bearings?

Well, a lot of that depends on what exactly "dazed" means, really.  There's a huge difference in not knowing someone is there, and knowing someone is there and just being woozy or groggy.  And since the very definition of dazed is "can take no actions, but suffers no penalty to AC" I don't think there's really any wiggle room for saying that they would be flat-footed after their initiative pass.

Just my 2cp.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You get your turn so you drop flatfooted.  You just don't get to take actions.

Think like this, does the situation prevent anything other than actions that may happen in a round?

I agree with this.  Your turn comes up, flatfooted ends.  Even if it werent RAW, I'd houserule it so, combat's already rocket taggy enough.