Troublesome Player, Take 2

[solara]

What's kind of sucking for the paladin, and I don't know if it's on purpose to make the player feel bad, or if it's just the other PC showing that his character's breaking down, but the NG soulknife nearly went kamikaze CE massacre on a couple of bad guys last night. The party found out during the battle that a couple of the guys they were fighting were actually possessed and/or manipulated into fighting them. When the fight was over, they managed to rescue the traumatized half-elf that had been coerced into aiding the bandits. The soulknife didn't care what any of her circumstances were, mocked her life story, and said that he'd be watching her constantly. If she much as blinked at him wrong, he'd rape her with his mind blade, strip her naked, and then sell her to the worst possible slavers he could find. Why? Because she had attacked the group, regardless of the circumstances. Whey I said that doesn't sound like something a "good" character should do, he said from now on he'd be CN instead of NG. The paladin and rogue seemed to be having fun with absolute chaos, so he'd try it out too. There'd be less hindrances that way.

The paladin player merely hid his face from me behind his hands.

That sounds like a situation in my first campaign. It needs to be addressed NOW. BEFORE the other PCs tie up the paladin so they can blackmail an (admittedly stupid) captain who risked our lives not once, but twice. For no reason. The campaign degraded to the point where players had shouting matches and more than one character was threatened with various consequences.

If they want an evil campaign, they need to have all the players choose one. Talk to them before the next session.

[TenaciousJ]

You play with a bunch of psychos.  Holy shit.

Did you ever talk to everyone about the tone of the campaign before you started?  I find it's helpful to set the tone early on and mark some boundaries of what you will and will not tolerate.

[DonQuixote]

What's kind of sucking for the paladin, and I don't know if it's on purpose to make the player feel bad, or if it's just the other PC showing that his character's breaking down, but the NG soulknife nearly went kamikaze CE massacre on a couple of bad guys last night. The party found out during the battle that a couple of the guys they were fighting were actually possessed and/or manipulated into fighting them. When the fight was over, they managed to rescue the traumatized half-elf that had been coerced into aiding the bandits. The soulknife didn't care what any of her circumstances were, mocked her life story, and said that he'd be watching her constantly. If she much as blinked at him wrong, he'd rape her with his mind blade, strip her naked, and then sell her to the worst possible slavers he could find. Why? Because she had attacked the group, regardless of the circumstances. Whey I said that doesn't sound like something a "good" character should do, he said from now on he'd be CN instead of NG. The paladin and rogue seemed to be having fun with absolute chaos, so he'd try it out too. There'd be less hindrances that way.

The paladin player merely hid his face from me behind his hands.

 

Clearly, there's only one thing to be done at this point.  Thirty-headed half-dragon half-farspawn tarrasque.  Just...just throw it at them and run.

[Halinn]

Heavily metamagiced Hail of Stone. Rocks Fall, You Die.

[Unbeliever]

I hate to join the doom and gloom crowd, but I think it's time for a sitdown.  You might even want to do it via email, which has some pro's and con's. 

Here's what I'd say, something to the effect of guys, there are, broadly-speaking, two kinds of games going on here.  One of them is a chance to blow off steam and inflict massive mayhem, slaughtering everything in your path and so on.  The other is a more story and character-driven game where the PCs are heroes and, more importantly, the DM has to take into account their motivations and personalities in constructing the story and, as part of that, the encounters.

Now, it sounds like you've been wanting to DM the second type of game, but some of the players, in various combinations, have been pushing for the first type.  You may or may not be willing to run the first type -- that's your call.  But, your intention is to run the second type.  And, for that to work, they need to be on board with it.  You don't want to be restrictive, nor do you want to tell them how to play their characters.  But, in constructing the story and the campaign, to the extent it is going to have little things like plots, characters, and development, you need to be able to wrap your mind around their characters -- their motivations and so on.  And, as of late, you have not been able to do that.

I'd present it to them like that and see what they have to say.  It may be the case that things have gotten bent too far out of whack for them to easily get back into a more story-driven groove.  And, I think ultimately, that's what the OP is aiming for.  It's not so much a question good v. evil, but of actually playing the character that the DM is told they are playing rather than acting out some sort of other fantasy. 

[kevin video]

The game tone and everything was talked about before we even played. They'd give me a couple of backgrounds for a character based on the campaign I had in mind, and I'd chose one that fit closest. They were fine with that. We even had five of the original seven players end up being good (4 CG, 1 NG). The other two were CN (warlock, rogue) but leaned towards the good because they'd been oppressed previously, and didn't like bullies. That worked fine. Then all of a sudden, the paladin forgot that he was CG and started playing CN to the point of being chaotic greedy/selfish. That got nipped in the bud last night. However, it seems I was too late because the two characters who don't have a god went "Ha! You can't do that to me. I don't have a deity." Then we had a CN rogue wanting a harem at any cost to the people's freedoms and laws, and the NG soulknife telling the manipulated people that he honestly didn't care about their background or circumstances because he was going to rape them up the @$$ with his mind blade, strip them naked, and then sell them off to slavers. You know because that's how good people act when it comes to people who were blackmailed and manipulated who were abused their whole lives.

As for the next campaign, they know full well that it's an adventure path, and two of them have been wanting to do it for a while now, but it's fairly extensive so not a lot of GMs do it. It's actually a 2nd Ed path that had been somewhat advanced to 3.0 online so I've still got some work to go on it. You may have noticed my other threads regarding creatures and DR. However, they want to be CN. Only one player is considering CG because she wants to keep her godling of Thor theme going, who's CG himself. The reason they want to be that alignment is so that at any point in time, they can just walk away from anything without any consequences (other than the adventure path coming to them because not stopping anything actually causes everything to spread far worse), kill or "do" anything (main, pillage, burn, electrocute, slaughter, orgy, etc) with minor consequences, and "it just fits". The characters so far are going to include a pyromaniac that loves burning everything to the ground, an electricity specialist who can electrocute everyone, and an avid bomber (he's really getting into the new Assassin's Creed and loves the grenades to the point of it being disturbing).

I have a story, but I let the PCs choose how the story goes. I give them hooks, and based on what they choose, we go that route. It's worked out pretty well for us so far.

[veekie]

Well, they're under the illusion that CN are unfettered, throw some external authority on them? Being mass murdering rapists tends to put you up on the hitlist of any number of heroic organisations.

I'd say talk to them but they don't seem receptive to that.

[kevin video]

Not really all that receptive, no. And telling them that "the world is now headhunting you because of all the mass murders you've committed" will just get me the same answer I got regarding angering all the bad guys and fey, given to me by the paladin. "Good. Bring it on. I accept all challenges. Especially ones that come to me and give me more experience so I can level up faster. And once those are all dead, I'll make more people come after me for more xp."

[solara]

My response, personally, to this sort of behavior has always been an invitation for them to leave the game and go play a video game, where that sort of behavior is not just condoned, but encouraged. Seriously. If they just want to randomly kill stuff, and you don't want to run a game like that, then they get to go play video games. ESPECIALLY in a campaign like this, where everyone already agreed to a certain kind of game. If they now want to deviate from that, there needs to be another discussion. Because I can almost promise you that not all the players like the new direction.

Idea for controlling characters without gods is to remind them that they can still annoy gods - so have a god take issue with their actions. The thing about gods is they're very powerful, after all. And characters that don't follow a god don't have anyone to get their back, so to speak.

[ImperatorK]

Bring this guys.

[kevin video]

I was actually at a point that I actually went to my Friday DM for advice, and oh boy did he give me a doozy of a list. If I have to, I'll use it. His first sentence was "Give them everything that they want. Then choose from the list below as to what the consequence is for each action." There were a few party kills in that one, and almost all of them were painfully slow ones.

As for "I can almost promise you that not all the players like the new direction", only one player doesn't like it, but since she's new to gaming in general, she'd probably just sit there with her mouth closed and just choose to have her character do nothing. Just be guilty by association.

@ImperatorK -- Holy crap. Saved that one.

[bhu]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=901.0;msg=6373

send them to the elemental plane of water

[kevin video]

lol Extra Super Biggie Size? Apparently the CR is so astronomical it doesn't exist. There was a book of sizes that were past Colossal+. Can't seem to recall the name though, but I think the next one up was Monstrous.

[bhu]

I never really quite finished it as it was a goofy concept.  CR should prolly say 'largely pointless'.

Though if you peek through my homebrew i have more than a few truly jacked up critters scattered in there.  I'm sure one of them could cause sufficient mental anguish.

[kevin video]

It actually reminds me of this bastard. http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html

[bhu]

Ouch.  That hadda take some work.

[DonQuixote]

The reason they want to be that alignment is so that at any point in time, they can just walk away from anything without any consequences (other than the adventure path coming to them because not stopping anything actually causes everything to spread far worse), kill or "do" anything (main, pillage, burn, electrocute, slaughter, orgy, etc) with minor consequences, and "it just fits".

Simple solution?

The adventure path stops coming to them.  Have it slow down...then stop.  Suddenly, the forces of darkness aren't assaulting them any more.  If they try to learn more, they hear rumors of a mighty paladin, a brilliant wizard, a superhuman monk, and a wise druid who have joined forces to take down this growing threat.

What, they thought they were the only heroes in the world?  (Plus, now they're getting upstaged by a monk.)

Now, I'm not saying that you should take away the cheese at the end of the maze.  Just make them aware that there are other mice in there with them, and that certain doors are only open to mice who push certain levers.  If they decide to walk away from their quest, don't let them keep reaping the benefits of said quest.

Saying "I'm going to act this way because I feel like it, and the world can suck it once I become a god" becomes a lot more difficult when there's somebody else jockeying for the same celestial position.  I hear that 1% of the gods control 42% of the divine ranks, so the job market for godding can't be very open.

It becomes a character choice at that point, not a player choice.  Is this revelation enough to startle the soulknife from his stab-and-rape-happy ways, or is he content to give up ultimate power for the sake of fewer moral dilemmas?

Oh, and if the party decides to take the option of killing the competing heroes, it is worth pointing out that they are then working for the entities they are supposed to be opposing, making them much less likely to attain their end goals.  Even if they do everything they need to, they've still killed champions of the gods--champions who had picked up the quest that they themselves had previously abandoned.  I'm pretty sure that the voting council of gods frowns upon that one.

[weenog]

Man, KV, you just desperately need to find a pair of balls, and soon.  You got dumped on constantly as a player, and now you're getting dumped on constantly as the DM.  This has gone on too long in too many areas to be coincidence.  How many months, now?  What's the common factor?  The problem has to be you.  Even the lowest of the low-quality D&D players out there can only inflict on you so much grief as you're willing to tolerate from them, and you are inhumanly tolerant.

You must know, somewhere deep down inside yourself, that everyone you play with thinks you're the weak doormat, and that's why you get treated this way.  As many calls for help as you've put out over the months, it doesn't seem as if you like it very much.  Nobody else can fix it, man, only you.  Any advice you get is worthless without your action.  You're the only one that can summon up your courage and stand up for yourself.  You're the one that has to draw the line and say, "This is the limit of negativity and nonsense I will accept from anyone.  No slippery slope compromises beyond this point.  If we're friends, start acting like it."

You might lose some players for this.  From the sound of things, you wouldn't be losing much worth keeping.  Maybe you'll have to go without D&D for a while, and that's okay.  It would give you a chance to recover, gain a new perspective, and eventually start over with other players that aren't trashing you constantly because they think they can get away with it.  Maybe, instead, you'll be surprised.  It's possible these people will stop behaving in this way once they no longer have such an easy, inviting target.

[ksbsnowowl]

An entire party basically devoting themselves to chaos, rape (which is evil) and murder (also evil) sure sounds like a group that heroes would rise up against.

And if not that, their strongly-aligned chaotic actions would probably draw the attention of something like a Concordant Killer (MM4).  They specialize in slaying non-neutrally aligned things; it's their passion, you might say.
And it's CR 19, and a rather impressive specimen, IIRC.

Since the entire party appears to now be chaotic, the concordant killer can now get a free +4 deflection bonus to AC and +4 resistance bonus to all saves vs the PCs (Bringing his AC to 43 (touch 16, flat-footed 40), and his saves to Fort +21, Ref +18, Will +21).  And he has SR 30.  He also can have a constant lesser globe of invulnerability effect vs spells cast by chaotic individuals.

The PC's will likely only be able to affect him with non-elemental touch spells of 4th level or higher.

Possessing both celestial and demonic heritage, these powerful entities are dispassionate killers who frequently deliver the wrath of the gods. Concordant killers seek always to perfect their killing abilities and, when not in the employ of a higher power, hunt down those they deem worthy prey.

They also have a bevvy of SLA's (Including Dictum 1/day, greater dispel magic at will, all at CL 19).

[Halinn]

You could also point out to them that evil acts are evil, and will move your alignment in that direction, even if you're chaotic neutral.