Author Topic: Players Have Say, DM Should Too  (Read 31567 times)

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2012, 07:35:12 PM »
Quote from: wotmaniac
Just remember, do not feel like you are forced to conform to your players' whims just for the sake of "going along to get along"
Just so long as you're okay with the mutiny that's at least possible (if not necessarily probable) when you choose not to conform to your players whims based on a DM's "this is my game, and you need to play along or GTFO" attitude.  A DM with no players and a known tendency to insist on getting his way is not often a highly-sought commodity at another table if his game falls apart.
For sure.

(I think that I lost quite a bit of nuance in my quest for conciseness)

It's like this: if all the expectations (from everybody) are put out there explicitly before play starts, then anyone who sits at the table has agreed to those expectations.  The point I was making was about those people who insist on breaking the social contract.

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2012, 10:51:25 AM »
Quote
It's like this: if all the expectations (from everybody) are put out there explicitly before play starts, then anyone who sits at the table has agreed to those expectations.  The point I was making was about those people who insist on breaking the social contract
What's to be done with those who aren't interested in the DM's POV on the social contract?  For example, those who insist (perhaps due to an overabundance of philosophy/politics classes common to the group often associated with gamers) that it should be each for themselves, or a communal "no one voice should be louder than the other, including the DM's" POV?  We've heard the "Don't Kick Players Out Of Your Games!" podcast.  To my way of thinking, a DM that actively chooses not to invite a given player or autocratically declares that others in the group can't invite more players to join is engaging in a form of kicking a player out of the game.   

In other words, who sets the social contract, and who says that it is sacrosanct for a given table?
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Offline veekie

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2012, 10:59:06 AM »
The social contract here is a compromise one, rather than a 'majority wins' decision process. Everyone must agree to it on some extent and outright object to no aspect of it.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2012, 11:00:38 AM »
The social contract here is a compromise one, rather than a 'majority wins' decision process. Everyone must agree to it on some extent and outright object to no aspect of it.
Depending on how finely one parses "outright object to no aspect of it", I'm not sure I've ever seen that at a gaming table.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2012, 01:29:22 PM »
As in, severe, "I'm not playing with this on the table" objections I mean.
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2012, 10:57:14 PM »
Yeah, veekie's trackin' on this one.

Once the contract has been established, everyone is beholden to it -- including the DM.  If someone is violating the contract, then they are breaking the trust and need to be called on it.  If that violator happens to be the DM, and he does that often enough, then sure, he doesn't deserve to have a group for which to DM.

Let's look at the second link I posted (as an example):
Personally, I generally prefer the "Collective" play style; however, I'm fairly comfortable with "Competitive-Collective", and can go with it if that's what the rest of the group prefers.  OTOH, "Individualist" is generally a non-starter for me.  So, if I decide to sit down with a group that operates under the "Individualist" play style, then I have no one to blame but myself if I'm not having any fun -- I've broken the contract, even though it's me that thinks that they're "doing it wrong" (they're not doing it wrong, because I'm the one who broke the contract) -- and so it's up to me to either "get on board" or find another group.

Another big piece of the social contract (probably one of the biggest - if not the biggest - pieces) is that of how Authority is expected to be shared.  Putting this in a codified format and then letting it stand as it's own entity can go a long way in settling these types of disputes. 

Regardless of which side of the screen you're on, you all are still a group -- as such, if the contract is being broken, then any/all at the table should have equal right/responsibility to invoke the contract when something goes awry.

That being said, the structure of D&D seemingly necessitates the idea that the weight of someones words should be some function of their in-game creative control as per the agreed-upon system(s).

All that being said .... once a social contract (or any element thereof) has been established, and I decide that I'm going to DM a game under that contract, then yes, I (definitionally) expect any/all players at my table to follow that contract (just as I expect them to hold me to the same).

Offline Tiltowait

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2012, 11:16:17 AM »
If all else fails, fire is always a solution.

Offline Halinn

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2012, 02:00:30 PM »
If all else fails, fire is always a solution.
"If all else fails"? You have your priorities mixed up. Start with fire. Should that fail to work, apply explosives. Should that fail to work, duct tape has yet to fail.

Offline Tiltowait

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2012, 06:29:50 PM »
If all else fails, fire is always a solution.
"If all else fails"? You have your priorities mixed up. Start with fire. Should that fail to work, apply explosives. Should that fail to work, duct tape has yet to fail.

No, your priorities are mixed up. Start with explosions.

Offline Halinn

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2012, 07:33:41 PM »
If all else fails, fire is always a solution.
"If all else fails"? You have your priorities mixed up. Start with fire. Should that fail to work, apply explosives. Should that fail to work, duct tape has yet to fail.

No, your priorities are mixed up. Start with explosions.

Nah. A good arson works in 90% of cases, for less work. Explosives work in every case fire does, of course, but I'm quite lazy.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Offline Halinn

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2012, 08:41:26 AM »
Of course not. Twice probably won't be enough.

Offline Tiltowait

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2012, 05:34:24 PM »
If all else fails, fire is always a solution.
"If all else fails"? You have your priorities mixed up. Start with fire. Should that fail to work, apply explosives. Should that fail to work, duct tape has yet to fail.

No, your priorities are mixed up. Start with explosions.

Nah. A good arson works in 90% of cases, for less work. Explosives work in every case fire does, of course, but I'm quite lazy.

You're doing it wrong.

Offline Halinn

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2012, 07:13:31 PM »
You're doing it wrong.

Look, if I wanted the safe solution, I'd start with the duct tape. A failed arson means having fun with explosions, while a failed explosion means tedious work with duct tape.

Offline Tiltowait

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2012, 08:17:41 AM »
Again, you are doing it wrong.

Offline Halinn

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2012, 11:16:09 AM »
Again, you are doing it wrong.
Perhaps we just have different definitions. My definition of arson is as one would think. My definition of explosion is slamming every particle in the known universe together to a single point, and let the different forces figure out how to make that go boom.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2012, 02:11:14 PM »
Explosions are nice and all, but that really doesn't help the whole "social contract" topic now does it?
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2012, 07:23:26 PM »
Explosions are nice and all, but that really doesn't help the whole "social contract" topic now does it?
Sure it does. Contract as follows: You be nice or I explode you.

Offline Tiltowait

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #78 on: February 01, 2012, 04:36:29 PM »
Again, you are doing it wrong.
Perhaps we just have different definitions. My definition of arson is as one would think. My definition of explosion is slamming every particle in the known universe together to a single point, and let the different forces figure out how to make that go boom.

You're talking about safety. Now, fire does 6d6 or 8d6 to one group and explosions do 10d10+10 to all groups. Which is safer? Which is more likely to solve the problem? Exactly.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2012, 05:48:37 PM »
Guys, if you didn't notice, Sinfire Titan was asking you to stop with your offtopic. Care to move your conversation to PMs?
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