Author Topic: Martial Discipline Development Thread  (Read 11345 times)

Offline Drammor

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 02:21:27 AM »
Prongs of Cernunnos.

There. Now it references something epic. Cernunnean Prongs if you're obsessed with two-word names.


Also, if I forgot to mention this earlier, thank you very much for the Convalescent name. It fit perfectly, near as I can tell. It certainly has a better feel to it than Battle Medic. (Which felt like a rejected nominee for Combat Medic.)

Edit: Hey heyyy. I spent the whole not being up again, and not sleeping. I've totally ruined my sleep cycle, I believe. Anyway, not the point. The point is that I made a new martial discipline, and that I can't believe I managed to map concepts on all of its maneuvers in a single night. It's another one for the Convalescent. It focuses on shields, damage reduction, ranged healing, battlefield control, party support and aggro, in that order. It needs a name. Any ideas?

I also worked more on the convalescent. After I get up, I intend on making the panacea lists... and then I think I'll actually be done with that class. (Woo!)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 11:04:34 AM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 01:57:58 PM »
Cernunnean Prongs is awesome, and it shall be done.

No problem w/ the Convalescent; I need a different name for my Primus class if you'd like to return the favor.  Lol.

For your new discipline, I vote "Impromptu Assistance".
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2012, 12:41:08 PM »
Having trouble with Sublime Fury for the Primus.  I want it to have Barb ACFs as different maneuvers, with actual raging as stances which you can only enter for X rounds before fatigue.

Problems:
1. I would think maneuvers should only be usable while raging... but that enforces your stance choice.
2. My thought had been to have Stance 1 be rage, with Stance 5 as greater rage and Stance 8 as mighty rage... but you can't swap stances, and the later ones would obsolete the earlier ones.

So, I'm brainstorming alternative ways to set up the rage mechanic.

Possibilities:
1. Turn Rage into boosts instead of stances... though the durations would be a problem, with maneuver recovery.
2. Have maneuvers do their own things, and have some or all of them grant you rage and none or some or all of them have extra effects if you're already raging.

Help?
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2012, 12:45:50 PM »
Various maneuvers (most strikes, some boosts and counters) grant you a rage-like state for 1 round. As long as you keep using at least one such maneuver every round, you stay enraged. Each maneuver may have different effects that it applies to your rage (same bonuses don't stack, but different ones do). You only get fatigued at the end of the rage. If you keep chaining a large number of maneuvers, you can keep raging for a long time with a wide variety of effects. At your discretion, any maneuver (from any discipline) can keep the rage going, or possibly only just Sublime Rage maneuvers.

Effects can also include extending the amount of time you have to use a maneuver and what happens at the end of your rage. There should be a hard limit to how long you can maintain a single rage.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2012, 04:04:24 PM »
Yes, this is what I was starting to cogitate, but actually thought through.  Thank you as always, G!
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Offline Drammor

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 09:37:20 PM »
Hey, so this Combat Clinic discipline is turning out to be more like a mystic discipline than a martial discipline, but I've got nearly everything done in the concept-mapping phase. I have my longform notes here. Everything's been named, but I still need to assign them to levels, and they still need to be described. Combat Clinic introduces the Form, which can be taken up like a stance and taken up at the same time as a stance, but is a maneuver that does not cease to be readied after a character leaves the form.

Yeahh... after fiddling with it for about 30 minutes, I have to say I just can't figure out the tabling system on these boards. It gives me a headache. Amechra and everyone who can do it has my absolute respect. So here's a spoiler.

(click to show/hide)

I can't decide whether Resplendent Guard or Retrieve from Beyond is a better candidate for the 9th level maneuver. Resplendent Guard is the one that can eliminate foes, but RfB can raise a dead character as a swift action. Crud.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 09:47:30 PM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 09:45:47 PM »
2 things.

1) I don't understand the distinction between a form and a stance.
2) What problems are you having with tables?  Garryl & I can almost certainly answer any questions you have.
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Offline Drammor

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 10:37:36 PM »
1) A character can't be in two stances at the same time.
A character can't be in two forms at the same time.
A character can be in a stance and a form at the same time.
Forms are maneuvers that take a swift action to assume and a swift action to leave.
After a character assumes or leaves a form, it is still readied.

2) Actually, I think I might be getting the hang of it, but I may ask about them later. I'm not really interested right now.

Any thoughts on the discipline list?
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2012, 03:11:04 PM »
A lot of stuff based around DR.  The problem is (1) lots of attacks bypass DR, and (2) those that don't often do enough damage that it doesn't matter.  However, I'd have to look at it more closely to figure out how the interactions actually work.


Expanding on my wand discipline idea (I've renamed it Impromptu Virge), I'm going to make a martial artificer along with 3 disciplines: ImpVirge (key skill UMD), Twisted Vellum (a discipline based on scrolls, key skill Decipher Script), and Mystic Brew (a discipline based on potions, key skill Sleight of Hand).

This seems like an amazing idea to me, but I could use suggestions on what to have the maneuvers actually do.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2012, 03:36:24 PM »
Scrolls: Use a long scroll bullfighter-style? Twirl around with as you cast to deflect attacks? Grab enemies by wrapping scrolls around them, then cast the spell from it at point-blank range? Write on enemies in combat to create magical effects? Or there is this Pathfinder thing.

Potions: Mix two potions together into an explosive that deals 1d8 damage x their combined levels. Use potions as splash weapons to affect multiple creatures. Throw lots of potions and/or splash weapons. A stance that delays the effect of a potion until you exit it.

Wands/staves: Retributive Strike
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 03:44:16 PM by Prime32 »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2012, 04:29:19 PM »
Scrolls: Use a long scroll bullfighter-style? Twirl around with as you cast to deflect attacks? Grab enemies by wrapping scrolls around them, then cast the spell from it at point-blank range? Write on enemies in combat to create magical effects? Or there is this Pathfinder thing.

Potions: Mix two potions together into an explosive that deals 1d8 damage x their combined levels. Use potions as splash weapons to affect multiple creatures. Throw lots of potions and/or splash weapons. A stance that delays the effect of a potion until you exit it.

Wands/staves: Retributive Strike

These are great, thank you!
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Offline Drammor

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2012, 05:17:26 PM »
A lot of stuff based around DR.  The problem is (1) lots of attacks bypass DR, and (2) those that don't often do enough damage that it doesn't matter.  However, I'd have to look at it more closely to figure out how the interactions actually work.

Not so much the whole discipline as Steel Golem Form and the stances, but that is a pretty significant part of most disciplines, and I was concerned that that might be an issue. I could change Steel Golem Soul so that it does something like convert damage reduction into hardness, but that still leaves the issue of attacks doing enough damage that DR can be negligible. Hmm. I wonder if there's a way to create a DR-like mechanic for the discipline that fits in with D&D's existing systems, but eliminates both issues...


Quote
Expanding on my wand discipline idea (I've renamed it Impromptu Virge), I'm going to make a martial artificer along with 3 disciplines: ImpVirge (key skill UMD), Twisted Vellum (a discipline based on scrolls, key skill Decipher Script), and Mystic Brew (a discipline based on potions, key skill Sleight of Hand).

This seems like an amazing idea to me, but I could use suggestions on what to have the maneuvers actually do.

I will think about this for you.


Edit: I was desperately in need of sleep before my last post. I took a nap for an hour and a half and then ate a spoonful of honey straight out of the comb and it was OMG delicious but that's not really related to anything including why I'm feeling better now.

Alright, what if those DR enhancing maneuvers in Combat Clinic handled reducing damage differently? For instance, if they provided effects similar to object hardness or fractional reduction of damage?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 11:59:21 PM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2012, 05:50:59 PM »
the fractional reduction could help, though even reducing 6k damage by half won't keep you alive...



ok, here are my 4 (!) disciplines for the Warcrafter prc, with all the ideas I have so far.  Some suggestions wouldn't go amiss...

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

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(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 08:04:06 PM by sirpercival »
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2012, 06:03:09 PM »
Maybe create a sort of dancing scroll (or schema maybe?) that can cast itself repeatedly as long as you maintain concentration? With restrictions on spell level, extra costs, etc. Or something that makes the words fly off the scroll.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 06:04:43 PM by Prime32 »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2012, 07:41:00 PM »
Maybe create a sort of dancing scroll (or schema maybe?) that can cast itself repeatedly as long as you maintain concentration?  With restrictions on spell level, extra costs, etc.
Maybe start with a strike that lets you scroll with a DS check to not erase the scroll... and then a higher-level one that uses DS checks to have it cast itself?

Quote
Or something that makes the words fly off the scroll.
Hmm... that's cool, could be a standard strike with DS = damage.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 08:02:57 PM by sirpercival »
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2012, 11:51:26 PM »
Combat Clinic introduces the Form, which can be taken up like a stance and taken up at the same time as a stance, but is a maneuver that does not cease to be readied after a character leaves the form.

How is this sufficiently different from stances to deserve a new mechanic?
How is this different from just giving everyone the Warblade's level 20 class feature? It seems to trivialize it somewhat.

Offline Drammor

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2012, 08:45:53 AM »
How is this sufficiently different from stances to deserve a new mechanic?
How is this different from just giving everyone the Warblade's level 20 class feature? It seems to trivialize it somewhat.

"Deserves" or "doesn't deserve" aren't really design features for me. I'd have a pretty hard time answering that question. The three Combat Clinic Forms provide and underline basic functionalities of the discipline. I'm certain you've noticed that Combat Clinic isn't as build-neutral as most other disciplines. Medium armor and tower shield requirements, goad-like effects, and so on. Instead, it provides a platform for the Convalescent to express its combat functions in a variety of ways, creating versatility of execution from a limited action set.

I created the Forms because I needed a way that the discipline could provide the same things that its stances tend to enhance, but would have longer-term effects than boosts. The first and most obvious answer was that these should be stances, but since no two stances may be active at the same time (with the exception of Warblade 20), allowing this to happen inside the discipline did seem to trivialize exactly what made soloclassing the warblade so fantastic. I tinkered with the idea of making a very small, very limited set of actions in the discipline "half-stances" and the Forms are exactly what came of that.

How does this differ from stances enough that they should be distinct? They're intended to be used alongside stances. Specifically, they're intended to be used alongside the stances that enhance or synergize with the effects they provide.

How is this different from allowing everyone to use Dual Stance? Forms don't do what Dual Stance does. They do something that resembles it, but seriously falls short. They don't allow characters to freely mix any two of their stances. Or for that matter, any of their stances. They allow characters to mix any of their stances with Angelic Grace, Oak Root Stand or Steel Golem Soul. After a little thought and consideration, I can understand how even this functionality could make you nervous, so I'd be happy to amend their original structure. I'll say instead that each one will require knowing 1, 2, or 3 Combat Clinic stances, and that Forms can only be used simultaneous to Combat Clinic stances. Would that be sufficiently limiting?


@sirpercival: I've been giving some thought to the class you mentioned, and to the Twisted Vellum discipline. I've got to say that I really love the idea of creating a class and then creating multiple disciplines designed to work with it. It's a marvelous system.

On Twisted Vellum, I agree that something that would cause words to leave the page sounds great, but when that thought was in my mind, I had imagined it more like a warding effect, which might force characters to adhere to certain rules while within areas defined by the writing, or along a line created with it. I just couldn't think of any way to make that work, so I hadn't mentioned it yet. Maybe you'll have more luck?

Another idea I had was "Scrollsong." Unfortunately, this was a late-in-the-night/early-in-the-morning idea I had that popped into my head just minutes before I fell asleep, and now all I can remember is the name. Maybe it will do you more good than it has done me. Or maybe after I wake up in a few hours, I will remember what it's supposed to do. Despite the name, I know it doesn't have anything to do with bard song or singing from the scroll. I think it was something more to do with the scroll using itself... but not to cast a spell. :/

...how do I design a DR-like mechanic that makes 6000 damage less instant deathy and more "just frightening," while also not completely defeating the purpose of 50 damage? Straight DR 35/-- I can actually understand having in a discipline designed to reduce damage, but you're right in that cutting 6k damage down to even 25% of its intended size is still useless, and to even do so would just be ridiculous.

Reducing damage per die is one idea, but it doesn't pan out well in the long run...

What about creating a system for "hit points"? That is to say, a system which would allow a character to suffer from a certain number of hits before it starts suffering severe penalties or dying, and in which some hits might count for eliminating more of these points than others? Believe it or not, that's actually a half-serious thought. I just need to figure out a way to make it viable. OH, and not call them hit points. What would they be called, though?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 08:55:42 AM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2012, 11:54:15 PM »
@SirP - Perplexing Essence seems like it could be really cool for Vaudevillian!

Offline Bozwevial

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2012, 07:38:04 PM »
Finally finished Infinite Shore.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Martial Discipline Development Thread
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2012, 10:13:39 AM »
Some ideas I had for an Iaijutsu Focus discipline. Working name: Cherry Blossom Flash.
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