Author Topic: How can minions NOT break the game?  (Read 3023 times)

Offline SneeR

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How can minions NOT break the game?
« on: March 21, 2012, 06:08:56 PM »
 We all know that use and abuse of action economy can spell life or death for PCs, expecially if mosters can get more out of an action than PCs. This is the reason that mages are so much more powerful than warrirors, but it is also one reason (of many) that druids are so powerful from even level 1. Druids literally get twice as many actions as everyone else.  Half of those actions are as good or better than any level 1 fighter, and the other half are druid spells and medium BAB-inspired combat.

Which brings me to my point: having minions is awesome. An unfortunate side effect of having a level-appropriate minion, though, is that they grant you twice as many level-appropriate actions per round. And you can't have level-inappropriate minions or--below a certain point--you may as well not have them at all

What are some ways that minions become viable but balanced?

I can only think of a few I've seen:
-The master is not capable of doing much on his own (the direction of most necromancers)
-the caster must invest actions for his minions to do things (this is either direct control--action per action--or investing partial actions into minions' whole actions, like a move action from the master)
-the minion cannot take full actions
-the minion can take level-appropriate beatings, but not dish them out
-the minion fully expendable and easily, quickly replaceable (and usually not level-appropriate as a result but by sheer volume)

What are ways that minions are worked into various game systems effectively in your experience?

EDIT: Maybe Druid-animal companion is a bad example.
Okay, think shaper psion and his astral construct. Is that relationship fairly balanced? Why or why not? Is that something to strive for? Is it too much or not enough?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:27:18 PM by SneeR »
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: How can minions NOT break the game?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 06:34:31 PM »
I would like to point out the quantity of actions isn't really a problem, but its quality.

In the druid example, at level 1 the druid is a fullcaster that gets a CR 1 minion. And the druid himself is CR 1. Yeaahhh...

There are reason why nobody calls the familiar of a sorceror/wizard imba, despite tecnically being extra actions as well.

-the minion fully expendable and easily, quickly replaceable (and usually not level-appropriate as a result but by sheer volume)

Like said in other rpg, a "minion" that fights as well if not better than you is no minion at all. Minions should be considerably weaker than the master. And of course expendable.

There's still space for strong monsters under your command, but they should cost directly more in resources the closer they are to your power.

However this is kind of a moot point. People wanted borked minions. Back in 3.0 when the druid had to actualy go out there and work for his animal companion, and then said companion didn't get a bunch of free bonuses neither was it easily replaceable, it was actualy balanced. And TO cried tears of blood and demanded that they wanted super animal companions whitout any effort to obtain and maintain. I was there,  I saw it happen, and regardless of what it's said nowadays, wotc simply gave the gaming population what they asked for.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 06:38:29 PM by oslecamo »

Offline SneeR

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Re: How can minions NOT break the game?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 07:28:01 PM »
Yes, Druid is just the most egregious violation. Maybe not the best example.

Okay, think shaper psion and his astral construct. Is that relationship fairly balanced? Why or why not? Is that something to strive for? Is it too much or not enough?
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: How can minions NOT break the game?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 07:42:21 PM »
Okay, think shaper psion and his astral construct. Is that relationship fairly balanced? Why or why not? Is that something to strive for? Is it too much or not enough?

By itself is balanced. The AC is strong enough, but short duration and consumes precious PP plus taking a round of combat to get it going.

If you however start stacking those obscure dragon magazine feats/prcs to get what basically amounts to free buffs (as the psion can afford to easily swap his feats around with reformation), coupled with overchannel to get ACs of a higher level than you're suposed to get, things get ugly pretty quickly.

Point: if you're gonna have minion mechanics, make sure you then don't make a bunch of material that easily amplifies said minion powers until they're one or more order of magnitudes stronger than normal.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:44:45 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Endarire

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Re: How can minions NOT break the game?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 07:27:08 PM »
One stipulation with "minions" is duration.  Summon monster, even when fully augmented (Malconvoker, etc.), isn't game-bustingly uber due to the small list and short duration.

Animate dead makes permanent-until-death minions.  They can be used against you (by the rare rebuker or control undead user), and these minions require you to find the corpse (usually by killing the creature), but in general, they rock due to duration.  If you can go grave robbing, a Fire Giant Skeleton (when he's first available) could take on small parties by himself.