Author Topic: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?  (Read 19061 times)

Offline veekie

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 03:27:05 AM »
There's a reason Gish became as popular a word as it has, because the concept is so new. Something that uses both magic and combat training in one package isn't an idea we're brought up with from mythology or folklore.
Which is odd, since plenty of mythological warriors could use some magic. Heck, Bilbo Baggins could use magic. But most magic in older stories is closer to "superstitious practice that actually works" than "I can shoot fireballs with my mind".

I suspect that what's really new is the idea of the three categories.  If I recall correctly, in most of the cases in which a mythological warrior can use magic, that's just another function of their abilities--some heroes are demigods (Cú Chulainn), some have magic items (Bilbo), and some learn magic because that's a part of being a master warrior in their mythologies.  But, in most cases, nobody stands aghast because they can both fight and use magic.
Actually, the ability to fight well is itself a kind of magic in myth and history. Favor of the gods, battle luck, internal force(ki), killing intent etc are attributed as a natural part of the warrior rather than being distinct. Any sufficiently adept craftmen, sage, storyteller, etc were inherently magical. The only difference was really whether it was inherent ability, or an external gift.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 10:52:11 AM »
Now this is the sort of thing we're looking for.  I don't know much about Buddhism--what are the -kuten?  I'm fairly certain that "kuten" translates to "physical basis," but I've never heard of these guards.

Linky, linky. The four Heavenly Kings. Couldn't remember enough correctly apparently, and these guys don't even have a Wikipedia page (wtf?). Took even me, who brought it up, a while before I could get "Koumokuten" spelled correctly enough to actually find the info. Sorry about that.

I will say that the way I remembered it, all four names ended in -kuten, not just two of them. In one story, Zochoten actually did the Final Fantasy Mage Knight / Sorcerer move where he threw out fire at demons at first, then he cast it on his pike when he started to use it.

I don't understand this thread. Why do we need a word to express a complex thought when we already have ways of expressing it through clearer means -- saying wizard Knight or magic warrior or spellblade or made hammer?  Or even guy who trained in both combat and spells?

I think that reducing this concept to a single word -- one that will likely be drawn from out of context or made up and will likely never beyond this board -- is ridiculous.

Not everything is a TVTropes entry with nice boxed sides filled with examples and zigzags and subverted and averted.

Yes I know TVTROPES wasn't brought up before now, but it's the same thing that happens there.

In the real world, we are constantly using abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms for multi-word concepts. And sometimes, a person gets a lexicographer to accept a new word, because the new word has a purpose or fills a need.
Even words that are 'to long' for 'normal use' get shortened down quite frequently. (Or do you always call everyone you know by their full first name?)

To think that this linguistic evolution would not (have) occur(ed) just as readily in a fictional environment as it does in the real world, is BEYOND 'ridiculous'.

Also, you apparently spend way to much time on that site, and have no idea how to separate it logically from the rest of the internet. This is not the first time you've referenced it in this manner. This is not that site, or any other. Every site has its own 'flavor'. Please respect this fact by not automatically making a mental leap to make such tenebrious connections.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 04:43:08 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline kurashu

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 12:21:13 PM »
I don't understand this thread. Why do we need a word to express a complex thought when we already have ways of expressing it through clearer means -- saying wizard Knight or magic warrior or spellblade or made hammer?  Or even guy who trained in both combat and spells?

I think that reducing this concept to a single word -- one that will likely be drawn from out of context or made up and will likely never beyond this board -- is ridiculous.

Not everything is a TVTropes entry with nice boxed sides filled with examples and zigzags and subverted and averted.

Yes I know TVTROPES wasn't brought up before now, but it's the same thing that happens there.

In the real world, we are constantly using abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms for multi-word concepts. And sometimes, a person gets a lexicographer to accept a new word, because the new word has a purpose or fills a need.
Even words that are 'to long' for 'normal use' get shortened down quite frequently. (Or do you always call everyone you know by their full first name?)

To think that this linguistic evolution would not (have) occur(ed) just as readily in a fictional environment as it does in the real world, is BEYOND 'ridiculous'.

Also, you apparently spend way to much time on that site, and have no idea how to separate it logically from the rest of the internet. This is not the first time you've referenced it in this manner. This is not that site, or any other. Every site has its own 'flavor'. Please respect this fact by not automatically making a mental leap to make such tenebrious connections.

I see it referenced all the time on this site when it comes to giving examples and I feel it's the same thing that happens there. My problem isn't that "ogm lingustic change badbadbadbadbadbadbadbad" is that people are dragging up words and bringing them out of context to name a concept that already has suitable names.  Seriously, recommending the Latin word for hunter for this? When I think of the word hunter I think of some in camo sitting all day in a tree perch with either a bow and arrow or a hunting rifle.

Allow me to Schrödinger this (see what I did there?). Let's take a character archetype that I'll make up. A character who is whisked away to a far away land, recruits others on her journey home, murders a witch to retrieve the item she needs most and her companions have an identity quest on the way. Sure, we could call her "The Dorthy" but if you don't have Wizard of Oz as a reference point, it's a meaningless and arbitrary designation. That's what is happening here and that's what happens on TvTropes. It's a completely fair point, in my opinion.

I don't understand what's wrong with using a compound word and letting that naturally transform over use into something that describes this. You speak of linguistic evolution, but this is a breeding program. Why hasn't a word naturally formed? Because authors seem content to either use spellwarrior or mageblade or wizard knight OR to create the name of an organization or some sort of nickname for this type of person that others use (no examples come to mind). If authors begin to agree on a term, then it'll evolve naturally. Shit, who knows, maybe one day we'll use the term Wight to describe a Wizard Knight instead of a undead.

Words that get shortened down or become acronym or initialisms or whatever are because they are typically an unwieldy thing to say in normal conversation. It makes sense that instead of saying "The starship fired its Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation beam at the enemy vessel." Who ever would write or say LASER. Or instead of saying, "O Captain, my captain the Radio Detection And Ranging is being jammed!" the first mate would say RADAR. Those stem from a natural part of what they are trying to describe. Not shoehorning a meaning into an already existing word.

As for refuting my character, once upon I spent too many days on TvTropes before I realized that it didn't do me any good amassing so much pop culture and animu references and was actually harming my ability to think and write anything. I barely touch the site anymore. I will admit that a few good things came out of it, I never would have found the Second Apocalypse series if it wasn't for that fucking place and I probably wouldn't have finally picked up Luis Jorge Borges or Ambrose Bierce or William Hope Hodgeson or any of the other authors I found out about on that site.

And yes, I refer to people by either their full first name or what name they prefer to be called. Occasionally, I'll call them something else either to annoy them or as a pet name, but who doesn't do that? I refer to my girlfriend as Kristie or a pet name. Then again most people I know have, for lack of a better word, common first names that don't require tongue gymnastics. Do you go around shortening names for people? What would you call me? My name is Alec, named for Sir Guinness of the Bridge over the River Kwai (also, yes my parents named me after Obi-Wan Kenobi).

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2012, 12:43:27 PM »
My suggestion of Venator had a few things going for it -- one was a facetious reference to the Venn Diagram which DonQ mentioned, another is that a Venator is also a kind of Roman gladiator, and thirdly a somewhat more subtle reference to the Venatori Umbrorum from Dresden Files.  There's nothing at all wrong with it as a suggestion.

Also, having some concise, non-githyanki names for a gish would be really nice for homebrewers having difficulty naming their classes.  There are only so many compound words you can use before (a) you retread and redund, or (b) you get very long and unwieldy names.

The big thing, though, is that going into a thread and ranting that the thread is useless is extremely non-productive.  Why can't we discuss this?  If it bothers you, don't read the damn thread.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2012, 02:23:14 PM »
Myrmidon
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2012, 03:05:34 PM »
*SNIRK*
 *giggles*

I'll spoiler the irrelevant crap. I'll leave out what I found funny.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Quote
I don't understand what's wrong with using a compound word and letting that naturally transform over use into something that describes this. You speak of linguistic evolution, but this is a breeding program. Why hasn't a word naturally formed? Because authors seem content to either use spellwarrior or mageblade or wizard knight OR to create the name of an organization or some sort of nickname for this type of person that others use (no examples come to mind). If authors begin to agree on a term, then it'll evolve naturally. Shit, who knows, maybe one day we'll use the term Wight to describe a Wizard Knight instead of a undead.

*SNIRK*
 *giggles*
That. Is. The. POINT!
No, really. You just agreed with the purpose of this thread.

BREAKDOWN!
Quote
I don't understand what's wrong with using a compound word and letting that naturally transform over use into something that describes this.
In the real world, the term "Gish" hasn't been around that long, but it has seen a lot of use as an archetype. Now imagine you lived in a world that had had these people for a long, long time. The Githyanki came up with their own name for that class of warrior, why wouldn't anyone else?

Quote
You speak of linguistic evolution, but this is a breeding program.
Right, because across the world, there are new types of fungi and algae that are killing frogs. Frogs can't evolve to be resistant fast enough. So scientists have breeding programs.
Same thing. The term is evolving out of the language as is, but it is too slow to meet the immediate need. Thus we are taking it upon ourselves to be the lexicographers.
This "breeding program" is meant to simulate the evolution that would have already happened in the game world.

Quote
Why hasn't a word naturally formed? Because authors seem content to either use spellwarrior or mageblade or wizard knight OR to create the name of an organization or some sort of nickname for this type of person that others use (no examples come to mind).
Authors?
Hmm... Hey, SirP, who's the author of "High Arcana"? Oh, yeah, it's you.
Hey, Me, who's the author of your IRL campaign, "Forge of Legends". Oh, me.
Hey, Prime.
Hey, Don.
Hey, Veekie.
Hey, "Tailspining" sub-board.

*AH*-*HEM!*
WE ARE THE FREAKING AUTHORS HERE!

We are trying to think, as a group what would be the:
Quote
OR to create the name of an organization or some sort of nickname for this type of person that others use
:banghead

So let us be the:
Quote
If authors begin to agree on a term, then it'll evolve naturally.
Given the above point that "Naturally" is too slow. And that "the authors" include all of us.

And:
Quote
Shit, who knows, maybe one day we'll use the term Wight to describe a Wizard Knight instead of a undead.
I like your idea there. A lot. Keep them coming?

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 03:14:52 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2012, 03:17:26 PM »
Myrmidon
Shaolin Warrior

Myrmidons were mundane. Entirely so. In some versions of the tales about them, Achilles was more than that, but his troops were always just men.
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Offline xaotiq1

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2012, 04:36:53 PM »
Marvel? Mascotte? Merrythought? Gammadion? Sudarium? Fylfot?
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2012, 06:40:40 PM »
Quote
Words that get shortened down or become acronym or initialisms or whatever are because they are typically an unwieldy thing to say in normal conversation. It makes sense that instead of saying "The starship fired its Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation beam at the enemy vessel." Who ever would write or say LASER. Or instead of saying, "O Captain, my captain the Radio Detection And Ranging is being jammed!" the first mate would say RADAR. Those stem from a natural part of what they are trying to describe. Not shoehorning a meaning into an already existing word.
The only reason I mentioned the shortened version of words is just that Groat, the Half-Orc Barkeep wouldn't keep calling every Duskblade, Hexblade, Spellsword, etc. by their class names. He couldn't tell the difference. He wouldn't call them all 'Blades of the Grand Arcanum' even if that's the guild that trained all of the Gish-types in his area. He would, along that line, gall them BoGAs (pr: BOW-GAS) or sum-such.

Please, think of Groat.
Let's go with "them assholes that don't hardly ever tip proper, them's being all high-and-mighty".

Offline kurashu

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2012, 06:59:37 PM »
Stuff.

Really showed me there. I'm wobbling about and the announcer just shouted "FINISH HIM!"

Look up how Schrodinger felt about his cat.  That's what my example of reducing the character of Dorothy down to a single word.

As for "there's only so many combos you can use" how is a new word going to solve that? Pretty soon you're saying Guzumba and I'm saying Urtoder and this guy in the corner is saying Fred, because we all made up words to describe the same thing. More over, Gish has been the term of choice until now when discussing a mage-warrior that I doubt most people who call it that don't know where it comes from.

If you want a serious suggestion from me: Hexenreiter.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2012, 08:10:06 PM »
If you want a serious suggestion from me: Hexenreiter.
That reminds me... "Wiedźmin".

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2012, 12:08:25 AM »
If you want a serious suggestion from me: Hexenreiter.
That reminds me... "Wiedźmin".
Hell... why not just "Witchers"? Warrior-monks with superhuman powers, whose primary weapons are swords? Sounds pretty close...

Edit: I see. That's the name of the PnP RPG. You know... it grows on you, doesn't it? Wiedźmin...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 12:10:06 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2012, 02:46:32 AM »
Lightning. Warrior.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2012, 03:14:58 AM »
Wow.  A discussion of the necessity of linguistic expansion cropped up here pretty quickly!

Hexenreiter's definitely an interesting candidate, as is Wiedźmin.  Though I suspect we should slightly Anglicize Wiedźmin if we use it.  It'd be pronounced vyedzhmin, right?

Marvel? Mascotte? Merrythought? Gammadion? Sudarium? Fylfot?

I, uh.  Don't two of those refer to Swastikas?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 03:17:00 AM by DonQuixote »
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Offline kurashu

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2012, 05:39:37 AM »
Lightning. Warrior.

But they don't get a familiar.

Offline veekie

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2012, 07:00:56 AM »
Hmm, one interesting idea is to combine the words in another language, and then use it straight or in diminutive form. You get less linguistic indigestion that way.
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Offline xaotiq1

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2012, 10:36:41 AM »
Wow.  A discussion of the necessity of linguistic expansion cropped up here pretty quickly!

Hexenreiter's definitely an interesting candidate, as is Wiedźmin.  Though I suspect we should slightly Anglicize Wiedźmin if we use it.  It'd be pronounced vyedzhmin, right?

Marvel? Mascotte? Merrythought? Gammadion? Sudarium? Fylfot?

I, uh.  Don't two of those refer to Swastikas?

Then don't use either of those, crimony! Sorry I wasn't sensitive enough to do a full study on the origin of each word I suggested. I guess I'll prepare the scourge and coarse salt for my punishment then.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2012, 10:47:31 AM »
Hexenreiter's definitely an interesting candidate, as is Wiedźmin.  Though I suspect we should slightly Anglicize Wiedźmin if we use it.  It'd be pronounced vyedzhmin, right?
Wiedzman/wiedzmen/wiedzwoman?
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2012, 10:56:56 AM »
Hexenreiter's definitely an interesting candidate, as is Wiedźmin.  Though I suspect we should slightly Anglicize Wiedźmin if we use it.  It'd be pronounced vyedzhmin, right?
Wiedzman/wiedzmen/wiedzwoman?

Wiseman?
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