Author Topic: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype  (Read 21453 times)

Offline Endarire

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2013, 07:38:55 PM »
Player's Handbook 177, under "Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw" says you can voluntarily not try to save.  Maybe this applies to skills.

Offline CaptRory

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2013, 08:30:50 PM »
I dunno this seems like a deliberate use of the skill for the opposite of what its usually used for. But it still seems like it should be something you could roll for.

Offline Gazzien

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2013, 08:47:22 PM »
I dunno this seems like a deliberate use of the skill for the opposite of what its usually used for. But it still seems like it should be something you could roll for.
Well, I'd think of it as changing their attitude... you're just making it worse instead of better?

Offline Demelain

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2013, 09:36:51 PM »
I mean, you can deliberately stack all the penalties you can find, if nothing else. The d20 roll is the only part that you can't control.
Making a rushed check alone is usually enough for you to fail spectacularly (a good thing, here) if you weren't trying to be a diplomancer.

Offline CaptRory

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2013, 09:51:19 PM »
I dunno this seems like a deliberate use of the skill for the opposite of what its usually used for. But it still seems like it should be something you could roll for.
Well, I'd think of it as changing their attitude... you're just making it worse instead of better?

Yup~ Seems like it'd be a kind of taunt mechanic. Roll Diplomacy to make the bad guy hate you more than your teammates.

Offline Kethrian

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2013, 10:58:50 PM »
Well, if looking to a 3.5e based game for inspiration is okay, then DDO uses the intimidate skill for taunting.  Diplomacy there is for aggro removal.
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Offline brujon

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2013, 11:12:57 PM »
Well, if looking to a 3.5e based game for inspiration is okay, then DDO uses the intimidate skill for taunting.  Diplomacy there is for aggro removal.

Neverwinter Nights is 3.0 and added the Taunt skill.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Taunt

NWN2 maintained the skill, but modified how it worked.

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Taunt

Both are good, but different implementations of the skill. They can be combined NP, as different uses of the skill:

- Make a Taunt roll vs Concentration to disrupt enemy spellcasting, and reduce his bonus to AC. - 30% ACF sucks, but Charisma is not a skill most fighters have, while Int will surely be maximized on Wizards. It's still very useful to fighter classes that have high Cha, like Swashbucklers and Hexblades.

- Make a Taunt roll vs Will Save to lower an opponent's AC, provokes attacks of opportunity. Affects all targets within 5ft per 5 ranks of the skill. -> VERY good in combination with Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. Add in Defensive Sweep and BAM, field is set. - Personally, i'd add in the option of taking a -10 penalty to the check, but forcing the opponent to move towards you if he fails his check, as a mind-effecting spell, but eh.
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Offline Andion Isurand

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2013, 08:22:54 PM »
Applying penalties to enemies a tank threatens feels right to me.

I homebrewed a tank class that others can borrow from if they like.

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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2013, 04:23:59 PM »
Slaad are supposed to let you tank.
5 Slaad come upon 1 dude they're gonna fight.
1 Slaad fights the dude, then the next one,
then the next one, etc ...

This might be a 2e only clause, but anyways
it's kinda funny, and could easily be turned
into a homebrew.
Charm(Compulsion) -- Tank Like A Slaad
Transmutation -- Impugn Your Honor (so I must fight you)
Necro/Fear -- If I don't fight this guy I'll die
Summon Archeron Spirit -- all war all the time
Psychoportation (Time) -- Ancestral Anger = rage attack everything

This is a far superior way to deal with Slaadi than
the 4e skill challenge ~argue/reason with a Slaadi.
(but y'all already knew that)
Why again was I talking about Slaadi ?
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Offline brainpiercing

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2013, 03:38:07 AM »
IMHO there are several kinds of tanking in D&D that actually work reasonably well, depending on levels. It's hard to make a fighter to do most of them.

At low levels: Make a wall, movable at best. Usually cannot be done by one character, but I have found that a formation of low-level crusaders can make a fairly good tank.

At low levels: Ride the tank: A Magebred warbeast animal with custom feats (Martial Study/Martial stance, I'm looking at you)

At all levels: Make yourself too dangerous to ignore. This means:
- extreme reach or high mobility. I had a game once where reach weapons had native reach, and I had 15ft of reach with a large glaive (10ft native), and 25ft once enlarged (15ft native). This meant that in a lot of fights just getting past me was a challenge, and I could still be within reach of anyone teleporting past me to the squishies behind me. Generally, enlarging with a reach weapon will work wonders.
- high impact: BFC abilities AND high damage: The easiest is the Knockback feat. Combine with Shock Trooper, possibly dungeon crasher. Tripping, Combat reflexes, Stand still. If every hit is significant AND carries some  effects, then enemies won't ignore you.

Unfortunately this means you will always be at least 50% glass cannon. Actually glass cannons will be the better tanks after a while. You just have to be tough enough to survive. Usually this means you need some sort of buffer (a tricked out bard is best, a wizard will do)

- be a (mobile) machine gun nest: RANGED tanking is just so much better. Force the enemy to traverse a large amount of ground to get to you while you pelt him with whatever you have. Must be significant enough and versatile enough to actually get them to attack and not just bypass. If you are attacking a strong point then they might just hide, too, but in that case you have full tactical mobility for your team without threats. If they run away, well... that's also a success. Guess which kinds of characters do this best? This obviously doesn't work if your team mates just run ahead. It also doesn't work too well if all you do is crawl around dungeons. Some might say that this is not tanking, but obviously it is, because you will draw the enemy towards you and make him want to attack you (by being pesky or hopefully really dangerous), and to do this they might have to bypass your glass cannons or even just minions who can take them out before they do significant damage to your team. Unfortunately you cannot make yourself invulnerable or unreachable while you do. So a flying ranged attacker pelting a bunch of melee crawlers is NOT a ranged tank.  You DO ideally have a backup plan for when the enemy manages to close.

At high levels: Build a tank for your wizard.

Permancy on Animated Object (Some rollers and a framework chassis on top of that), then cover this with a body of several inches of Adamantine so no LoE to the animated object remains. Put a little tower like thing on top to fight from or simply make some openings to be able to shoot or cast spells from total cover. Since there is a wizard inside it will be able to deal with various threats. Bonus points if you can somehow build a gun for the tank.


Offline Kasz

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2013, 07:15:34 AM »
At high levels: Build a tank for your wizard.

Permancy on Animated Object (Some rollers and a framework chassis on top of that), then cover this with a body of several inches of Adamantine so no LoE to the animated object remains. Put a little tower like thing on top to fight from or simply make some openings to be able to shoot or cast spells from total cover. Since there is a wizard inside it will be able to deal with various threats. Bonus points if you can somehow build a gun for the tank.

Well... a mounted Ballista would be hilarious...

Little port holes you can open and close as a free action, have them built with least crystals of returning? 300g for a free action port might be reasonable? :P Then you can cast spells from total cover.

Although I imagine a lot of Shape Spells, heat or chill metal and similar might upset the tank crew.

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2013, 08:02:21 AM »
At high levels: Build a tank for your wizard.

Permancy on Animated Object (Some rollers and a framework chassis on top of that), then cover this with a body of several inches of Adamantine so no LoE to the animated object remains. Put a little tower like thing on top to fight from or simply make some openings to be able to shoot or cast spells from total cover. Since there is a wizard inside it will be able to deal with various threats. Bonus points if you can somehow build a gun for the tank.

Well... a mounted Ballista would be hilarious...

Little port holes you can open and close as a free action, have them built with least crystals of returning? 300g for a free action port might be reasonable? :P Then you can cast spells from total cover.

Although I imagine a lot of Shape Spells, heat or chill metal and similar might upset the tank crew.

Hmmm.... you are right. Shaping spells would suck. I would tend to think they have a limited range, though, so just being ready to counterspell, or wearing a ring of counterspelling or spell battle, or whatever it was called, would help.

Heat metal won't do too much, as I would assume an adamantine monocoque would be quite resistant to simple heating. Chill metal I don't know, it might lower the hardness.

As the outer shell is theoretically inanimate, Disintegrate would also ruin your day. Making it layered instead of monolithic might prevent that.

Offline Endarire

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2013, 08:09:56 PM »
I promote Hood so much because she is the ultimate warrior archetype:

-Mobile
-Very damaging (able to one-shot or one-round anything officially printed by ECL20, assuming she can hit it)
-Reach weapon-focused
-Versatile

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2013, 08:52:30 PM »
Which has zero things to do with tanking, so thanks for proving my point from earlier.

Offline Endarire

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2013, 08:57:47 PM »
The ideal Hood is a very mobile, very damaging 'spear turret.'  You come near and she slaughters you.  She keeps her allies safe.  That's tanking in the sense of protecting your party.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2013, 10:52:32 PM »
So you're claiming that a Wizard nuking the holy hell out of someone with Fireball is "tanking", because dead people don't attack.

Normally when someone says something like that they say it with a smile and everyone polity laughs afterwards.
But all I hear is crickets.

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2013, 02:50:26 AM »
So you're claiming that a Wizard nuking the holy hell out of someone with Fireball is "tanking", because dead people don't attack.

Normally when someone says something like that they say it with a smile and everyone polity laughs afterwards.
But all I hear is crickets.
Well, see... he's still sort of right, but only half: Because the guy who is drawing the aggro by being too bloody dangerous to ignore is actually best at protecting his party. HOWEVER, there needs to be a point to drawing the aggro, because if enemies always have to fear being one-shotted, then they will stay the hell away and - if they are smart - just pack up and run, or go looking for some ranged attack power.

Which is why superchargers and hoods whose only point is one-shotting make bad tanks, unless the enemy is too slow to get away, or absolutely needs to fight them for whatever reason. But a wizard slinging spells and being really dangerous automatically puts himself into the tank role, as long as enemies are mobile enough to reach him. To become a tank he needs to have the defenses to survive drawing the aggro.

Seriously, tanking cannot be just about being the meatshield. That role is defined, it's called meatshield, best left to summons or minions, but actually just physical barriers work almost as well. It's not something anyone in their right mind would play. The tank is the spearhead, the one who draws the aggro and survives, or if he can't do that, at least protects his team-mates actively.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2013, 03:28:35 PM »
My position is this: there's no 'tank' archetype, just because, all members of the party must do everything in their power in order to improve their defenses, i.e. be 'tanks'. This is the reason why constitution is so important and some people despise races that lose con, such as most elves. Having a single party member with awesome AC & hit points, doesn't mean that all other members are covered.
...
Disagree.  And, this seems to be based on a fallacy -- that people have to do everything in their power to improve their defenses. 

Premise:  the game involves opportunity costs.  You have a limited amount of character resources -- every gold you spend buying a defensive-oriented magic item (e.g., Third Eye of Clarity) is another gold you can't spend on offense or utility.  Every feat, spell, action, etc. is the same.

In many cases, it is more efficient for character/build Alpha to acquire a defensive ability than for character/build Beta to do so.  A cleric who has a remove paralysis handy, a psion who takes damp power, and a spellcaster who has freedom of movement available can all be taking advantage of that.  In some, surely not all but we're talking at a pretty extreme level of generality here, it's easier for the psion to mitigate "area effect blasty spells" than it is for each character to do so on their own. 

That's the core feature, metagame speaking, of the Tank.  She stacks defensive abilities and resources, somehow, freeing up the Hood or the Striker or the Glass Cannon to allocate their resources somewhere else.  Now, clearly the extremes are bad:  Captain Invincible but Utterly useless is bad, as is Major 10,000 Damage But Made Out of Paper-Mache.  But, that's the basic idea.  A Tank's role is to mitigate, prevent, etc. harm to herself and the rest of the party.  With savvy players, this frees them up to expend their resources elsewhere, whether it be character build resources or in-combat tactical ones. 

The overlap between battlefield control is made pretty obvious on this formulation.  Just as solid fog or web deny enemies the chance to really hurt you where they would like (e.g., protects the relatively low hp god wizard), the tank is designed to do the same through a variety of means.

I don't know if this rises to the level of an "archetype" b/c I admit to not really knowing that that term means.  Is it a concept we can wrap our heads around?  Yes.  Can it be built effectively?  Certainly, I mean people on this board can make anything pretty badass, and this one isn't exactly rocket science.  Is it "optimal?"  Probably not.  Although that also seems besides the point -- I haven't played the toughest character I could make in a game for at least a decade.  And, if we were aiming for the bestest characters evar!! we'd all play Pun-Pun or Omnifiscers or something every game. 

Note that this understanding of a Tank works best in troupe play, but that's the norm in D&D.  Otherwise, you're just someone who stacks defensive resources.  That's not necessarily bad or ineffective either, but it's hard to talk about that as a "role." 

Offline Demelain

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2013, 03:56:32 PM »
I believe the phrase is comparative advantage, yes? That it's easier (and thus less costly) for some classes to acquire defensive abilities than others, and vise versa for offensive/utility abilities.

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: [CO Discussion] Tank Archetype
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2013, 08:04:54 PM »

That's the core feature, metagame speaking, of the Tank.  She stacks defensive abilities and resources, somehow, freeing up the Hood or the Striker or the Glass Cannon to allocate their resources somewhere else.  Now, clearly the extremes are bad:  Captain Invincible but Utterly useless is bad, as is Major 10,000 Damage But Made Out of Paper-Mache.  But, that's the basic idea.  A Tank's role is to mitigate, prevent, etc. harm to herself and the rest of the party.  With savvy players, this frees them up to expend their resources elsewhere, whether it be character build resources or in-combat tactical ones. 
It would be nice if this actually worked, but in practical play I believe it doesn't, unless the GM accommodates you. If you build up your defenses and simply stand in front of people who are actually more dangerous, then this won't protect them on the long run. D&D has a few mechanics to defend others, but not really very many. If you focus on those and then are still mobile enough to defend one or ideally more team mates, then you are a tank. For the rest of the game drawing aggro works better.

Of course I know the games where the GM was too frustrated with the weak defenses on half the party that he was actually making most enemies attack the tank, even against all logic. But that's objectively bad GMing and bad character building. I'm not saying it can't be fun in campaigns where even mechanically weak characters survive past infancy - but as an optimisation excercise a purely for fun game is a pointless example.