Author Topic: Making casters MAD...  (Read 17756 times)

Offline Bauglir

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 11:28:24 AM »
Uh, no, grappling a wizard is literally groveling at their feet begging them to kill you quickly.
Well, let's not be too hasty. I mean, in all fairness, if you've managed to grapple a wizard past level 5, it's because the wizard wanted you to, obviously. So in that sense, yes. Assuming you've somehow pulled it off against the wizard's will, however, then I figure it's no more groveling than any other strategy for fighting them, because that's what you'll be doing as soon as Dimension Door (one of the few specific spells I'm okay with assuming a wizard will always have). And if the wizard doesn't want to be grappled and doesn't have a spell prepared to escape the grapple, then you're probably in decent enough shape, honestly, but then again that's probably because you live in Magical Christmas Land.

EDIT: Or a low-op game I guess those happen too

Offline taltamir

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 03:58:00 PM »
Uh, no, grappling a wizard is literally groveling at their feet begging them to kill you quickly.

if you are  facing batman wizard who is prepared for everything then there is literally nothing you can do, anyways.
Also, while the fighter grapples the enemy wizard, your caster can counterspell
Also, that is even assuming the enemy is a wizard at all
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Offline X-Codes

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 07:41:18 PM »
At level 1, Clerics can get Travel domain.

At level 3, Wizards can fly for relatively long periods of time.

At level 5, Wizards and Druids get Heart of Water.  Druids also learn to fly for very long periods of time.

In the level 7-8 range, everyone has one or more methods of obtaining Freedom of Movement, all-day flying, and/or teleportation, all of which make a Fighter trying to grapple them a silly tool.  Many others also have the option of simply polymorphing into a troll or a bear and straight up murdering the now-unarmed Fighter.

Offline CaptRory

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2014, 02:31:41 AM »
Grappling is just a tool in the toolbox. Although with a little help or optimization it can still be useful. Like, having a way to cast Silence on yourself before grappling the spellcaster can make you doubly annoying.

Offline taltamir

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 09:36:01 AM »
At level 1, Clerics can get Travel domain.

At level 3, Wizards can fly for relatively long periods of time.

At level 5, Wizards and Druids get Heart of Water.  Druids also learn to fly for very long periods of time.

In the level 7-8 range, everyone has one or more methods of obtaining Freedom of Movement, all-day flying, and/or teleportation, all of which make a Fighter trying to grapple them a silly tool.  Many others also have the option of simply polymorphing into a troll or a bear and straight up murdering the now-unarmed Fighter.

1. Can take travel domain... but do they?
2. Fly can be cast on allies, party wizard casts fly on party fighter to have him grapple BBEG wizard
3. Non core, but if your DM allows it then sure. You did waste a round escaping from the grapple after discharging it (unless you discharge it preemptively)
4. Dispel, counterspell, and dimensional anchor

Also, congrats, your BBEG managed to counter a level 1 spell and a turn of the fighter by using up his entire turn AND a high level spell. Party still ahead on the action economy & resources (spells). AND the methods given to counter this are only available for fullcaster BBEGs. :clap
This means that what I proposed is indeed an effective strategy. It is just not an unstoppable "I win you lose". And note that I didn't propose it as the IDEAL strategy, I proposed it as a counter to "this spell is worthless"
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 09:41:06 AM by taltamir »
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2014, 09:56:15 AM »
You know what would make casters really MAD (other than insulting their mothers?)

Have all those derived stats depend off the lower of two ability scores.

For example:

Highest level of spells you can cast: Lower of your Charisma and Intelligence.
Your spell's save DCs: Lower of your Charisma and Wisdom.
Spells per Day: Lower of your Wisdom and Intelligence.

So, to give an example... A Wizard with Wis 15, Int 20, and Cha 13 would be able to cast up to 3rd level spells, would get only a +1 to save DCs to their modifier, and would base their Spells per Day off their Wisdom.

Of course, it could take some tweaking (I think it is a bit too punitive. You need 19 Charisma and Intelligence to cast 9th level spells, and if you want to get an extra one per day, you need to have 28 Wisdom AND Intelligence.)
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2014, 10:02:41 AM »
You know what would make casters really MAD (other than insulting their mothers?)

Have all those derived stats depend off the lower of two ability scores.

For example:

Highest level of spells you can cast: Lower of your Charisma and Intelligence.
Your spell's save DCs: Lower of your Charisma and Wisdom.
Spells per Day: Lower of your Wisdom and Intelligence.

So, to give an example... A Wizard with Wis 15, Int 20, and Cha 13 would be able to cast up to 3rd level spells, would get only a +1 to save DCs to their modifier, and would base their Spells per Day off their Wisdom.

Of course, it could take some tweaking (I think it is a bit too punitive. You need 19 Charisma and Intelligence to cast 9th level spells, and if you want to get an extra one per day, you need to have 28 Wisdom AND Intelligence.)

Start with 14 in all of them (doable, right?). Put one in each through levelling and one more in a third. All you need is a trio of +4 ability boosters, and you have ninth level and DC's/spells per day is if you only had the one stat. Certainly worse, but hardly difficult by level 17.

If your base stats before items are something like CHA 15, INT and WIS 16 by level 20, add in +11 by boosters/wish/whatever (I think that cost fits in the budget), and all that needs to be scrounged up is +1 from somewhere to get the bonus 9th. :O
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 10:04:35 AM by Raineh Daze »

Offline Amechra

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2014, 10:11:01 AM »
Still, harder than getting a 30 in one stat.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2014, 10:15:02 AM »
Still, harder than getting a 30 in one stat.

Yeah.

Hmm... Lesser Aasimar, move one point from WIS to INT. As a bonus, increases DC's.

Offline taltamir

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2014, 10:33:44 AM »
You know what would make casters really MAD (other than insulting their mothers?)

Have all those derived stats depend off the lower of two ability scores.

For example:

Highest level of spells you can cast: Lower of your Charisma and Intelligence.
Your spell's save DCs: Lower of your Charisma and Wisdom.
Spells per Day: Lower of your Wisdom and Intelligence.

So, to give an example... A Wizard with Wis 15, Int 20, and Cha 13 would be able to cast up to 3rd level spells, would get only a +1 to save DCs to their modifier, and would base their Spells per Day off their Wisdom.

Of course, it could take some tweaking (I think it is a bit too punitive. You need 19 Charisma and Intelligence to cast 9th level spells, and if you want to get an extra one per day, you need to have 28 Wisdom AND Intelligence.)

It is a fairly small debuff to lose out bonus spells, you just don't get that many of them
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#tableAbilityModifiersandBonusSpells

Save DCs hurt more, but you can use no save spells. But DM could limit your spell choice.

The real issue is the spells themselves not the ability modifiers. You need to sift through and ban a massive amount of spells.
If you are looking for a simple 1 change to make then instead of changing ability modifiers you should change progression to 1 spell level per 3 caster levels instead of 2. (although I am not saying that is a good change, just a better change)

You have classes which use a bunch of dailies, and classes with a bunch of at wills, you simply cannot balance that out.

Still, harder than getting a 30 in one stat.
Getting all 3 to 30 is indeed harder. But getting all 3 to 20 is fairly easy thanks to diminishing returns on the methods of pumping up a stat. a  +5 inherent bonus costs 137,500 gp while 3 different +6 enchantment bonus items is 108,000
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 10:35:40 AM by taltamir »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2014, 11:01:35 AM »
You know what would make casters really MAD (other than insulting their mothers?)

Have all those derived stats depend off the lower of two ability scores.

For example:

Highest level of spells you can cast: Lower of your Charisma and Intelligence.
Your spell's save DCs: Lower of your Charisma and Wisdom.
Spells per Day: Lower of your Wisdom and Intelligence.

So, to give an example... A Wizard with Wis 15, Int 20, and Cha 13 would be able to cast up to 3rd level spells, would get only a +1 to save DCs to their modifier, and would base their Spells per Day off their Wisdom.

Of course, it could take some tweaking (I think it is a bit too punitive. You need 19 Charisma and Intelligence to cast 9th level spells, and if you want to get an extra one per day, you need to have 28 Wisdom AND Intelligence.)

It is a fairly small debuff to lose out bonus spells, you just don't get that many of them
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#tableAbilityModifiersandBonusSpells

Save DCs hurt more, but you can use no save spells. But DM could limit your spell choice.

That depends how they're limiting it. Is it 'no freely available scrolls for wizards' or 'you don't get to choose on level up' or 'I'm going to veto everything I don't like;? If it's the second or third, this whole thread is more-or-less irrelevant. And honestly, one more ninth-level spell is always a good thing. Prepare Wish, just in case; Shapechange; Gate; Time Stop... and with a base value of 28, we're talking 15 more spells. That's not 'small'

Quote
The real issue is the spells themselves not the ability modifiers. You need to sift through and ban a massive amount of spells.

And nobody is ever going to do that.

Probably wouldn't be much less by the end.

Quote
You have classes which use a bunch of dailies, and classes with a bunch of at wills, you simply cannot balance that out.

Prove that infinite-use resources and finite-use cannot ever balance out. I'll wait here for the flying pigs.

Offline taltamir

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2014, 11:59:50 AM »
Prove that infinite-use resources and finite-use cannot ever balance out. I'll wait here for the flying pigs.
You are asking me to prove it can't be done? Can you prove it CAN be done?

Anyways, proof is a bit too absolutists... but I can make a solid argument why I think it can't be done

1. Everyone who has ever attempted to has failed, no exceptions.
1b. this includes the countless individuals who tried to "fix" it in forums and the like
2. The logic behind my statement is thus
a. if one class has severely limited resource (the difference between a daily and an at will is 6 seconds vs 24 hours to recharge) and one has unlimited resources, and the two are equal in power, then the limited resource one is much worse and thus they are not equal
b. if the limited resources is better while its resources last then one of two situations occurs. Either it is superior for a while and then it becomes inferior (taking turns sucking is NOT being balanced). Or you have 5 minute work days and its always superior.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2014, 12:04:27 PM »
B assumes that the entire concept of resource conservation eludes people, notably. Which is the only possible way your argument can stand--that the 'limited resource' guy is expected to contribute at full power as often as possible. The intended goal is that each option of equivalent level would, possibly, be individually more powerful, but they aren't going to be an endless stream.

Though you're ignoring limited use things like, say, bards. Or factotums. And your whole argument only needs one counterexample to be broken. : |

Offline taltamir

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2014, 12:17:42 PM »
B assumes that the entire concept of resource conservation eludes people, notably. Which is the only possible way your argument can stand--that the 'limited resource' guy is expected to contribute at full power as often as possible. The intended goal is that each option of equivalent level would, possibly, be individually more powerful, but they aren't going to be an endless stream.
1. I explicitly listed "take turns being useless" as a possibility. What you describe is that but not all at once (eg, caster casts 2 spells, sits out the rest of the battle)
2. In most situations it is not applicable, see 5 minute work days.
3. Any situation which somehow forces you to conserve resources via contrived DM fiat will likely cause them to be exhausted
4. Conserving resources doesn't show it is balanced, in fact the example of an all caster party doing in any is a classic example.

Quote
Though you're ignoring limited use things like, say, bards. Or factotums. And your whole argument only needs one counterexample to be broken. : |
I am sorry, but you forget what you actually asked me to prove?:
"You have classes which use a bunch of dailies, and classes with a bunch of at wills, you simply cannot balance that out."
And I should have clarified what I meant by that is "classes with ONLY A bunch of dailies vs classes with ONLY a bunch of at wills".
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 12:23:26 PM by taltamir »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2014, 12:28:45 PM »
B assumes that the entire concept of resource conservation eludes people, notably. Which is the only possible way your argument can stand--that the 'limited resource' guy is expected to contribute at full power as often as possible. The intended goal is that each option of equivalent level would, possibly, be individually more powerful, but they aren't going to be an endless stream.
1. I explicitly listed "take turns being useless" as a possibility. What you describe is that but not all at once (eg, caster casts 2 spells, sits out the rest of the battle)
2. In most situations it is not applicable, see 5 minute work days.
3. Any situation which somehow forces you to conserve resources via contrived DM fiat will likely cause them to be exhausted
4. Conserving resources doesn't show it is balanced, in fact the example of an all caster party doing in any is a classic example.

1) It's not 'take turns being useless'. If you make one big contribution, and then some other smaller ones, you're not 'useless' because you're not constantly outperforming everyone, and if you're consistent, you're not useless because someone else is doing better. Do you even understand what useless means?
2) Casters can only do that because everyone else lets them. This is a player mentality problem, not a class design one. One person is ludicrously wasteful, everyone else agrees to stop. Introduce time limits.
3) That is kind of the point. If you're wasteful, you're screwed. : |
4) I don't even get what this means. 'If you set up the perfect environment for daily abilities to be constantly used, it's imbalanced'? Of course it is. Just like never allowing enough rest to recover those abilities makes them utterly useless.

Quote
Quote
Though you're ignoring limited use things like, say, bards. Or factotums. And your whole argument only needs one counterexample to be broken. : |
I am sorry, but you forget what you actually asked me to prove?:
"You have classes which use a bunch of dailies, and classes with a bunch of at wills, you simply cannot balance that out."
And I should have clarified what I meant by that is "classes with ONLY A bunch of dailies vs classes with ONLY a bunch of at wills".

Warblade + Bard. Go on. Still waiting. Unless you think that Bardic Knowledge is particularly relevant.

Offline taltamir

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2014, 12:55:53 PM »
1) It's not 'take turns being useless'. If you make one big contribution, and then some other smaller ones, you're not 'useless' because you're not constantly outperforming everyone, and if you're consistent, you're not useless because someone else is doing better. Do you even understand what useless means?
2) Casters can only do that because everyone else lets them. This is a player mentality problem, not a class design one. One person is ludicrously wasteful, everyone else agrees to stop. Introduce time limits.
3) That is kind of the point. If you're wasteful, you're screwed. : |
4) I don't even get what this means. 'If you set up the perfect environment for daily abilities to be constantly used, it's imbalanced'? Of course it is. Just like never allowing enough rest to recover those abilities makes them utterly useless.
1. "small actions" are a lovely way to describe "be useless". Hey, the wizard took out the BBEG with 2 spells. Now he is going to sit aside and do nothing of value while we spend the next 30 minutes wiping out the leuitenants.
2. Don't blame the players for the system being bad. There is absolutely no reason for the party not to take 5 minute days, especially when you considering that the casters provide the consumable resources for the fighter (heals & buffs).
3. Extremely contrived DM fiat is exactly the point? And how is this an example of balance?
4. As you said, you don't get what this means, so let me articulate it better. If your DM creates an extremely contrived BS scenario where you are pushed and not allowed to rest because REASONS. Then the party of all casters will have better staying power than a mixed party or a party of all martials. This is because of several reasons
a. each spell can do a lot more in solving the threat than a martial can do in an entire day
b. thanks to being an entire party of casters, the party a lot of spells in total
c. staying power for a fighter is actually the spells of his allies (buffs and healings), so he is a net drain on party resources instead of a net boon.

Quote
Warblade + Bard. Go on. Still waiting. Unless you think that Bardic Knowledge is particularly relevant.
I am waiting for you to make an actual argument.
I cannot counter argue if all you do is name a class without actually articulating any argument about it.
You act as if your point is self evident... so much so that merely naming a class makes it. If I am (hypothetically) ignorant, then why would it mean anything to me?
Even if I am not ignorant, you would at least need to make a VAGUE argument to rekindle my memory instead of throwing in 2 NAMES
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 01:01:30 PM by taltamir »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2014, 01:27:00 PM »
1) It's not 'take turns being useless'. If you make one big contribution, and then some other smaller ones, you're not 'useless' because you're not constantly outperforming everyone, and if you're consistent, you're not useless because someone else is doing better. Do you even understand what useless means?
2) Casters can only do that because everyone else lets them. This is a player mentality problem, not a class design one. One person is ludicrously wasteful, everyone else agrees to stop. Introduce time limits.
3) That is kind of the point. If you're wasteful, you're screwed. : |
4) I don't even get what this means. 'If you set up the perfect environment for daily abilities to be constantly used, it's imbalanced'? Of course it is. Just like never allowing enough rest to recover those abilities makes them utterly useless.
1. "small actions" are a lovely way to describe "be useless". Hey, the wizard took out the BBEG with 2 spells. Now he is going to sit aside and do nothing of value while we spend the next 30 minutes wiping out the leuitenants.
2. Don't blame the players for the system being bad. There is absolutely no reason for the party not to take 5 minute days, especially when you considering that the casters provide the consumable resources for the fighter (heals & buffs).
3. Extremely contrived DM fiat is exactly the point? And how is this an example of balance?
4. As you said, you don't get what this means, so let me articulate it better. If your DM creates an extremely contrived BS scenario where you are pushed and not allowed to rest because REASONS. Then the party of all casters will have better staying power than a mixed party or a party of all martials. This is because of several reasons
a. each spell can do a lot more in solving the threat than a martial can do in an entire day
b. thanks to being an entire party of casters, the party a lot of spells in total
c. staying power for a fighter is actually the spells of his allies (buffs and healings), so he is a net drain on party resources instead of a net boon.

Oh, I see the problem. You've gotten it into your head that 'daily uses' means full casters, 'at will' means a fighter with no class abilities whatsoever, and the very existence of a time limit is 'contrived DM fiat', because clearly things won't get more dangerous if you take a week to go through a dungeon. : |

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2014, 05:09:10 PM »
1. Can take travel domain... but do they?
If their god offers it, absolutely.  The domain power and spells are all fantastic.

2. Fly can be cast on allies, party wizard casts fly on party fighter to have him grapple BBEG wizard
Fly is a 3rd-level spell, which you're not going to have EVER against a 3rd-level BBEG Wizard.

3. Non core, but if your DM allows it then sure. You did waste a round escaping from the grapple after discharging it (unless you discharge it preemptively)
It's from Complete Mage, so "if your DM allows it" is realistically "any game that goes outside core at all."

4. Dispel, counterspell, and dimensional anchor
A dedicated Cleric dispeller can, indeed, be a powerful force.  You will have to beware, however, of Spellblade weapons throwing those Dispel Magic attempts right back in your face.  Counterspelling is a fail tactic because of feat taxes until absurdly high levels, failure state in that you're almost certainly using Dispel Magic to counter, and at absurdly high levels the name of the game is contingencies.  Finally, Dimensional Anchor just might be the worst spell in the game.  It has two failure conditions (ranged touch attack, which many spellcasters can just plain immunize themselves against, and Will Negates saving throw, which ALL spellcasters have in spades) and locks down the use of the least offensive subschool of magic.  Even if you land it, your spellcaster just spent a turn blabbering while the BBEG can now say "Oh, you don't want me to escape?  Ok, I'll just murder all of you, then."

Also, congrats, your BBEG managed to counter a level 1 spell and a turn of the fighter by using up his entire turn AND a high level spell. Party still ahead on the action economy & resources (spells). AND the methods given to counter this are only available for fullcaster BBEGs. :clap
This means that what I proposed is indeed an effective strategy. It is just not an unstoppable "I win you lose". And note that I didn't propose it as the IDEAL strategy, I proposed it as a counter to "this spell is worthless"
You can't seem to decide whether the BBEG is a Wizard or has grapple mods significantly superior to the Fighter's.  Not that it matters all that much, because past level 7 they can both be true, anyway.  In any case, you're also conveniently ignoring that grappling has no less than 3 failure conditions to start a grapple with an unwilling opponent.  First, the opponent gets an AoO and the attempt fails if said AoO does damage.  Second, you need to succeed on a melee touch attack, which becomes progressively easier only as blanket immunity to grappling becomes more prevalent.  Third, you need to succeed a grapple check to actually grab the character.  This isn't even counting the hidden fourth failure condition that you need to get into melee in the first place to start a grapple.  Your suggested methods to get around this?  The Wizard casts Fly on the Fighter so the Fighter can hover over to the Wizard and hope to grapple him before the Wizard throws down a horribly debilitating AoE save-or-lose like Stinking Cloud or Black Tentacles.

In any case, how do you know that the party is fighting the BBEG at full strength, anyway?  Let's say the party is 5th-level, and they're trying to deal with a 7th-level Necromancer BBEG.  I'm willing to bet I could set up a dungeon that would render the party virtually incapable of even getting to the BBEG through simple application of the BBEG's spells.  Making it that unfair for the party is probably not even all that hard.

Offline taltamir

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2014, 08:12:38 PM »
You can't seem to decide whether the BBEG is a Wizard or has grapple mods significantly superior to the Fighter's.
The argument is whether or not the first level spell grease is useless or not. I argued that it isn't useless because it can be used in several situations. ONE of those several situations is to give you a mechanical advantage in grappling, which was then countered by "but BBEG is always batman wizard so immune to everything (including grappling)"

It wasn't me being indecisive, it was me asking "what if you are fighting someone who isn't batman wizard, like a fighter"

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Not that it matters all that much, because past level 7
if a level 1 spell is effective for levels 1 through 6 then it is a pretty good spell

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This isn't even counting the hidden fourth failure condition that you need to get into melee in the first place to start a grapple.  Your suggested methods to get around this?  The Wizard casts Fly on the Fighter
No, my suggestion to counter "the enemy casts fly so you can't grapple him" is "well then, I cast fly too". Because everything your batman wizard can do, so can my batman wizard

Its not that I can't decide on one argument, its that I keep on getting told how worthless grease is because ONE of its uses (grappling) is totally useless because ALL enemies are batman wizards. To which I replied with "not all enemies are batman wizard, and if you are, then my batman wizard counters your batman wizard by using the same level of spells"
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 08:15:51 PM by taltamir »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Making casters MAD...
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2014, 10:18:23 PM »
Its not that I can't decide on one argument, its that I keep on getting told how worthless grease is because ONE of its uses (grappling) is totally useless because ALL enemies are batman wizards. To which I replied with "not all enemies are batman wizard, and if you are, then my batman wizard counters your batman wizard by using the same level of spells"

This assumes the BBEG has the same level as the party's resident wizard.

Now, really, why would that be the case? That's just silly.