Author Topic: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread  (Read 5356 times)

Offline nijineko

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Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« on: November 04, 2012, 11:20:49 PM »
Please discuss the Level Adjustment Mini-Guide here.

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2012, 08:45:40 PM »
Just want to clarify what happens with LA's of 4, 5, and 6?

Taking an LA of 5, for example. The first level this can be bought off is 15. Which will bring it down to a LA of 4. So when do you buy off the next level? Using the usual method, the next LA would be bought off at level 27 (4*3+15). The ratio isn't 3:1, so you don't have to buy it off straight away.

Or... I'm not swapping between ECL (including LA) and actual CL correctly.
Because even though the characters ECL is 15, their actual level is 10. So, after buying off one LA, once they hit ECL 16 their actual level is 12, which is a 3:1 ratio with a LA of 4.
But then they're at ECL 15, an actual level of 11, and a LA of 3.

I'll just stop, I'm confusing myself now.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2012, 09:27:54 PM »
A creature with LA +5 can buy off 1 level once it has 15 class levels.  Its ECL at that time is 20 though, and goes down to 19 (15 class levels and +4 LA) if it buys off the first level of LA.  Once the creature has 12 more class levels (for 27 class levels total, putting it at ECL 31) then it can buy off another piece of its LA and would thus drop down to 27 class levels and +3 LA for ECL 30.  It repeats this for class level 36, then 42, and finally 45 when it has entirely paid off its LA.

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 09:35:42 PM »
That's what I originally thought, but I dismissed it due to my own experience with people saying beyond level 20 is "meh" territory and "don't go there".
Simple answer is usually the correct one, I guess. Thanks!
Do you know how long someone who is as sarcastic as I am would last in prison? Suuuuuuch a long time.

Bhu: Favorite quote of the day: “I’ll make love to you like a confused bear. Awkwardly. And in a manner that suggests I’m trying to escape.”

Offline nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 02:16:06 AM »
or, you can follow the updated rules, and only take the 5 LA one level at a time... and then buy it off every three levels. ie: take 1/5 la. three levels later, buy it off. for your next level, take the 2nd/5 la. buy off three levels later. repeat.

which is actually kind of the point of this mini-guide. to show people how to be able to play up to +6 LA builds and fit it into 18 class levels. and be following the rules to do so!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 02:18:59 AM by nijineko »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 05:20:00 PM »
EB ... they used shorthand on the little table.

LA+4 buys off at class levels 12 , 15 , 18 , and 21.
LA+5 buys off at 15 , 18 , 21 , 24 , and 27.
LA+12 buys off at 36 , 39 , 42 , etc
Racial Hit Dice don't count as Class Levels
for purposes of LA buy-off.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 12:39:09 AM »
or you could just take them one level at a time and buy off the 6 LA one level at a time at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18 as per the updated rules.....

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 01:34:59 AM »
+1 and thanks to both of you. I think I was just over-thinking it and ended up :banghead like this.
Do you know how long someone who is as sarcastic as I am would last in prison? Suuuuuuch a long time.

Bhu: Favorite quote of the day: “I’ll make love to you like a confused bear. Awkwardly. And in a manner that suggests I’m trying to escape.”

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2012, 03:27:48 PM »
Racial Hit Dice don't count as Class Levels
for purposes of LA buy-off.

If that is the case, then perhaps the re-training rules in PHB II should be noted in the guide?

Quote from: Player's Handbook II p. 199
Racial Hit Dice: Adding or subtracting racial Hit Dice is perhaps the most complicated part of character rebuilding. Work with your DM to ensure that he approves of this degree of change and that you’re doing it correctly.
If your character’s original race had any racial Hit Dice, you must remove all the benefits they granted. This process is similar to removing class levels (see Class Level Rebuilding, page 197). Next, replace these racial Hit Dice with class levels of your choice until the character’s effective character level is the same as it was before the rebuilding occurred.

That way, you avoid the RHD speedbump and can get your LA bought off quicker.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2012, 06:20:16 PM »
Racial Hit Dice don't count as Class Levels
for purposes of LA buy-off.

If that is the case, then perhaps the re-training rules in PHB II should be noted in the guide?

Quote from: Player's Handbook II p. 199
Racial Hit Dice: Adding or subtracting racial Hit Dice is perhaps the most complicated part of character rebuilding. Work with your DM to ensure that he approves of this degree of change and that you’re doing it correctly.
If your character’s original race had any racial Hit Dice, you must remove all the benefits they granted. This process is similar to removing class levels (see Class Level Rebuilding, page 197). Next, replace these racial Hit Dice with class levels of your choice until the character’s effective character level is the same as it was before the rebuilding occurred.

That way, you avoid the RHD speedbump and can get your LA bought off quicker.

that is interesting. if i am understanding your implication, you are suggesting to use the retraining rules to remove hd without removing la? i suspect that the benefits gained at non-hd levels would be lumped in with "all benefits granted" when removing hd. but it might be worth a mention. before i amend the posts, please make sure i'm getting it right, or correct me if not. thanks!

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2012, 07:37:56 PM »
that is interesting. if i am understanding your implication, you are suggesting to use the retraining rules to remove hd without removing la? I suspect that the benefits gained at non-hd levels would be lumped in with "all benefits granted" when removing hd. but it might be worth a mention. before I amend the posts, please make sure I'm getting it right, or correct me if not. thanks!

Yes, I am suggesting to use the re-training rules to remove HD without removing LA. No, it does not remove the benefits granted at non-hd levels, in fact, it only removes the benefits granted by the HD themselves.

"If your character’s original race had any racial Hit Dice, you must remove all the benefits they granted. "
Emphasis mine. "They" refers to a plural, if it removed the benefits of your race the pronoun would be "it". Thus, when you re-train RHD you lose the skill points, class skills, save bonus, HP, etc and replace them with that of the class level you re-train into.

The re-training rules don't take into account racial class progressions, but it is clear enough how it interacts: you keep all your racial features save those granted by your HD, and you still have the level adjustment. Since you now have some more class levels, you would be able to use this to get to your LA buyoff point sooner, thus pertaining to this guide (though it is also good to know in general when dealing with races that have HD).

Offline nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2012, 07:50:59 PM »
that is definitely worth a mention. thank you. i'll read over it and try to figure out the best way to put it into the book.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2016, 12:46:25 PM »
Hmmm, removing all benefits from the HD... that would also mean skill points, BAB, saves, any HD based racial features (to include any broken down into levels via savage species and savage progressions), and feats granted as a result of leveling HD as per the creature type.


*edit* provisionally added in its own section.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:06:11 PM by nijineko »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2016, 05:54:20 PM »
I hadn't looked at this one in a long whlle = good bump.


So ... (reads) ... ok there was a flip from calling this Rebuilding (which it is),
to calling it Retraining (which it isn't and is much lighter rules churn).
{ ... immediately hides legalist hat ... }


I like FlaminCows conclusion on post #10
IFF
you have a Savage Species racial progression
to go back into to figure out what to remove.
RHD can be Rebuilt into other class levels, at their appropriate cost, subtracting X adding Y.
(edit --- as Niji says on the post above)
But not the LA levels.

Otherwise, it's just a guess as to what any RHD provides
... though it could be a reasonable/educated guess.

Like Dragons are fairly well known, with many pseudo-progression available.

Mercury Dragons would be quite tasty, having that amazing Fly speed right away is worth any other loss.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2016, 04:21:17 PM »
Otherwise, it's just a guess as to what any RHD provides
... though it could be a reasonable/educated guess.
Due to the logical language you used, I followed this. You are following the rules as they are meant to be used: aka RHD are built-into the ECL and if you want to remove them, then you should lose out on what to race's "total package" is giving you.

That is not how the retraining guidelines are being (ab)used. RAI they are supposed to be a 'ooops, I didn't mean to have that build choice. Let's pretend I had made a different choice Mr. DM!' Think a sorcerer who learned all divination spells because they sounded 'cool' before realizing that this was an awful choice. RAW, said sorc would have to suffer for that entire level (and more) until she could forget the crappy spells as per the class's rules. Rebuilding is a poorly-written set of guidelines that tries to invent a solution. If we had competant writers, they would have known all of 3e, before adding to it, and just said 'give the PC a free psy ref from a friendly NPC'

But they didn't because they were dumb and didn't learn the psionics rules. So instead we have RKV that retrain all of their class levels (for a retroactive ECL0 entry) and things like the above where you burn off your RHD without even having the danger of level drain shenanigans.

Basically if you want to drop your RHD, just ask your DM to drop them. Torturing the RAW is way worse than just agreeing on a balanced compromise.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Level Adjustment Mini-Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2016, 05:13:37 PM »
Otherwise, it's just a guess as to what any RHD provides
... though it could be a reasonable/educated guess.
Due to the logical language you used, I followed this. You are following the rules as they are meant to be used: aka RHD are built-into the ECL and if you want to remove them, then you should lose out on what to race's "total package" is giving you.

That is not how the retraining guidelines are being (ab)used. RAI they are supposed to be a 'ooops, I didn't mean to have that build choice. Let's pretend I had made a different choice Mr. DM!' Think a sorcerer who learned all divination spells because they sounded 'cool' before realizing that this was an awful choice. RAW, said sorc would have to suffer for that entire level (and more) until she could forget the crappy spells as per the class's rules. Rebuilding is a poorly-written set of guidelines that tries to invent a solution. If we had competant writers, they would have known all of 3e, before adding to it, and just said 'give the PC a free psy ref from a friendly NPC'

But they didn't because they were dumb and didn't learn the psionics rules. So instead we have RKV that retrain all of their class levels (for a retroactive ECL0 entry) and things like the above where you burn off your RHD without even having the danger of level drain shenanigans.

Basically if you want to drop your RHD, just ask your DM to drop them. Torturing the RAW is way worse than just agreeing on a balanced compromise.

Personally, I've always been a fan of a higher leveled PsyRef that affected more things. say an 8th or 9th level version to affect class choices and stat allocations perhaps. Could even make it Epic level if one must to justify the power needed, call it history reformation (HiRef). However, I think that since it is not altering reality, simply tapping into an alternate possibility to rewrite part of the mental and physical characteristics of the individual person, epic shouldn't be required. It doesn't even affect memories. Probably should have some fluff text where the target goes into a dream/trance where they "relive" the "what-if" in question, and then retain it as a dream or an alternate memory. one could even have a caveat where overuse or too frequent use can actually cause insanity due to conflicting "what-if" memories or something. that might make for a fun storyline.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 06:39:34 PM by nijineko »