Min/Max Boards

Creative Corner => Campaign Settings and World-Building => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Mindscapes => Topic started by: phaedrusxy on September 17, 2012, 03:34:10 PM

Title: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on September 17, 2012, 03:34:10 PM
I want this thread to be a place to collect dream elements which would be interesting to include in this Mindscapes subsystem. These can be from your own dreams, dreams you've heard about, or things from movies or books which you think were cool. We'll discuss how to best implement these ideas within this newly developing gaming subsystem in this thread, or split them off into their own threads if they seem too big to be lumped together here.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: Amechra on September 17, 2012, 03:47:00 PM
Dreams are all about the feel man; things that are fucking scary in dreams could be hilarious outside of them.

Also, have you ever felt what it's like to fail a Lucid Dreaming check? I've had the equivalent to that happen, which resulted in me staying on a rollercoaster of a nightmare, where every attempt to change the dream simply changed what the nightmare was about.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on September 17, 2012, 03:47:37 PM
Flying is certainly something that should be possible in dreams, and in my experience it is something that should be based on a skill, perhaps concentration. I've had a recurring dream where I could fly, but doing so required me to focus a bit of my attention on it. Sometimes (and mostly in the first few dreams I had in this "series") it required more focus than others, and was more likely to fail (resulting in me falling). Later on, I guess once I'd "mastered" it, it didn't require much more attention than walking does, and I could do other things while flying.

Possession is another ability I've had in dreams. I could take over the bodies of others. In these dreams, I actually did not possess a body of my own, and if I was expelled or my host was "killed" before I had a chance to react and take another body, I knew I could "die". Once accomplished, this did not take any concentration, nor did the host have any chance of resuming control. So it was much like the Magic Jar ability in D&D.

Self-transformation is another ability I've experienced in dreams. In at least a few dreams I could turn into a were-wolf-like creature, although I mostly still had my own mind. I do remember feeling more "feral", though.

These types of things are easily replicated by the spells and other powers in D&D. How a dreamer should access these is the question. Obviously they don't need to be an actual spellcaster in their waking life. It should probably be a skill which can be used untrained. Again... I need to look at Lucid Dreaming's D&D rules to see if they cover this. IIRC they probably do.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on September 17, 2012, 03:52:41 PM
Dreams are all about the feel man; things that are fucking scary in dreams could be hilarious outside of them.

Also, have you ever felt what it's like to fail a Lucid Dreaming check? I've had the equivalent to that happen, which resulted in me staying on a rollercoaster of a nightmare, where every attempt to change the dream simply changed what the nightmare was about.
Yes, absolutely... You posted while I was writing my post... :P I mentioned that in the part on Flying. That was a pretty frequent occurrence in my flying dreams, and even when it didn't happen, it was sometimes a nagging fear in the back of my mind while Flying in the dreams.

Which brings up another point which could have broad-reaching implications overall for this subsystem: the more you worry about something happening, or think about it happening, the more likely it is to occur in the dream. We definitely need to have a mechanic for this, and it should include the ability for "Interlopers" to suggest things to the Dreamer and make them happen.

In fact... maybe that should be one of the few (the only?) ways that "Interlopers" can control the dream. They have to trick the Dreamer into willing what they want into being, since it is in fact his/her Dream, and they are only parts of it. Perhaps they could also plant things into his subconscious, which might be represented by areas within the dream where the Dreamer's "avatar" isn't currently present.

This should also be related to how a Dream becomes a Nightmare... Usually this happens because I suddenly become afraid of something in the Dream, and this fear drives the dream to change its nature drastically to make whatever I'm afraid of come true. I think Nightmares should probably be as dangerous to the Interlopers as they are to the Dreamer (or maybe more so).


Maybe there should be some kind of stability mechanic for the dream. The higher this "stability" measure is, the less likely the Dream becomes a Nightmare. Interlopers changing things around in non-subtle ways could de-stabalize the dream, making it more likely for it to devolve into a nightmare. Since nightmares are often chaotic and dangerous, this would likely not be a desired outcome for them.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: Garryl on September 17, 2012, 09:20:42 PM
Don't forget rules for when you're on the brink between waking and dreaming. I don't remember many of my dreams, so most of the time I remember any dreams are when I'm almost awake but clinging to sleep.

Edit: It's kind of annoying when I properly transition between the two states in the middle of a dream. It's kind of annoying to have a great dream, then have your conscious mind ruin it by seizing the creative direction.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: Merchant on September 18, 2012, 12:30:24 AM


Sorry just read what this thread was for so I'll tell you a dream I had long ago.

I was in a classroom at my old middle school. A group of people had holed up in there afraid to go out to the parking lot just beyond the door because something was out there.

For some reason we needed to get something outside of a truck in the parking lot. I was against it but because it was a nightmare I of course ended up going with them. It was a small group consisting of me, two older men and a girl my age. We got to the truck with no problems, but as we started to head back the two men started getting further ahead. I told myself to run to keep up but despite my efforts I continued to walk and was then alone outside with the girl and something else.

I had a bad feeling and almost to confirm this feeling. When I turned to the girl she had become a vampire(think Buffy series,yeah not very scary),but the vampire was male. I thought it was strange so I asked the vampire "Weren't you a girl?" This apparently was the wrong thing to ask because it got angry. It came to attack me so I punched it out of fear.

It went flying. I went running, back to the classroom. I got to the door but the vampire was closing in. And once again because it was a nightmare I rushed in and closed the door in a hurry. Sadly my arm was still outside and I was having a heck of a lot of trouble pulling it in(Due to the fact I was simultaneously pulling on the door. But what do you expect from irrational fear in a nightmare?) Anyways before I got bit I finally pulled my arm in.

I was of course relieved, but a stray thought went through my head. "What if I hadn't pulled my arm in in time?"

Suddenly my dream hit 'rewind' and my arm was sticking outside again while I was pulling on the door. This time I was bit. I was screaming but we all managed to get my arm in. Then I changed and started to slaughter everyone.

Then just as quickly I saw myself shaking my head as I got rid of the thought and I was back in the room thinking. "Well I'm glad that didn't happen."
____________________________________________________

How will we account for fear taking a positive effect? Much like my super punch.
I think we should have Lucid Points that allow us to effect the surroundings and themselves. You can allocate these points however you wish and use a standard action(?) to reset them

How does a Paladin's immunity to fear work inside a dream? No nightmares right?

I think "If" is a very powerful word in a dream. I think if you are going to manipulate a dream then you should invest Lucid Points into questions. "Are you sure he's dead?" would then trigger doubt/saving throw of whether a dream body is dead. It is one big mental war. You can invest points introspectively increasing your abilities and doing amazingly impossible feats(if you have enough points) or you can talk your way through the dream.

I think using points though also increases the chance of the Dreamer to become aware of the Interlopers and the fact that he is dreaming, which would either cause him to wake up, or use his mindscape to kill you.

Maybe the points can be half the rank you have in the skill Lucid Dreaming. If there is a class then that class would have its full rank worth of points.

I also think that if you decide to add a modifier to the points I think the Dreamer should have an advantage of all his mental modifiers added to the ranks.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: Merchant on September 18, 2012, 03:59:32 AM
Need to explain how to enter ones' dream.

Need to explain how to enter a waking person's mind ( a problem mentioned  on GITP is that the DM would have to control a dream world and the real world at the same time if one tried to jump into someone's mindscape.)

Maybe some form of meditation that allows one's mind to jump into the mindscape of another. How does that effect the waking person.

If we are going to allow that then we need to have a Conscious vs Unconscious scenerio. Maybe a penalty to concentration for casting spells or manifesting powers. That way this "Mindscape" class can be of assistance in the real world as well.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: sirpercival on September 18, 2012, 09:24:40 AM
I ran a dream-based game once, though it never got past the first few sessions due to RL issues.

People were dying all around Waterdeep, found in their rooms, in their beds, savaged as if by wild animals (even if someone else was in bed with them).  PCs poked around and discovered that several of the victims had gone to see a performance by a master bard illusionist.  They went to the show, and felt some sort of weird subliminal shit going on with the illusions.  That night they woke up (even the elf in the party) in a dreamscape, an alternate Waterdeep that was mostly abandoned and run down, with weird shadowy monsters and creepy happenings all over the place (some random person died and the pool of blood crawled away, for example).  There were others from the show around, getting attacked, and the overcast sky (lit from beneath by burning buildings) occasionally flashed with the symbol of a skull surrounded by purple flames.  The party joined together and survived the night, at which point they all woke up from where they had fallen asleep and it was morning.  They tracked down the bard and tried to interrogate him, but he committed suicide.

That was about where the campaign died.  The next few sessions were going to be that they experienced a progression of more and more horrifying dreamscapes, and that the nightmares were going to start spilling into their waking senses.  As more and more people (high profile members of the city) fell prey to the nightmare disease, the city would devolve into chaos.  Eventually, the party (assuming they survived each layer of the dreamscape) would reach the center, a forbidding black tower surrounded by nightmare beasts, where they would have a chance to destroy the entire construct.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 07, 2012, 10:20:18 PM
 :cloud9

True Recall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5725988)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: DonQuixote on November 07, 2012, 10:32:15 PM
I feel like cuil theory (http://cuiltheory.wikidot.com/) could be useful.  I never remember any dreaming that my brain may or may not do while I'm asleep, but I'm fairly certain that a certain level of abstraction from reality is the norm.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 07, 2012, 10:48:10 PM
I feel like cuil theory (http://cuiltheory.wikidot.com/) could be useful.  I never remember any dreaming that my brain may or may not do while I'm asleep, but I'm fairly certain that a certain level of abstraction from reality is the norm.
Pretty funny. I think I've been to at least Cuil 3, and maybe crossing over into 4, in some of my dreams...

For example...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: DonQuixote on November 07, 2012, 10:50:16 PM
I was thinking that you could define given regions as functioning at specific cuil levels, or have "storms" that would alter the cuil level of the affected areas.  As well as spells or effects that could establish--or abolish!--a degree of normalcy within their effect.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: sirpercival on November 07, 2012, 11:00:57 PM
Infinite Improbability Drive?
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: Garryl on November 08, 2012, 01:22:13 AM
:cloud9

True Recall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5725988)

Discover Truth (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1410.0;msg=12455). Psionics came first (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020623c).
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 08, 2012, 11:28:38 PM
:cloud9

True Recall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5725988)

Discover Truth (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1410.0;msg=12455). Psionics came first (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020623c).
Hmm... seems too good for a 2nd level power, but I'm not all that crazy about the spell version above, either (your entire life? come on man... that's nuts). I'd prefer some combination, like "nerfing" the spell to only show you a 30 second window as the power does, but reducing the casting time to always be 1 standard action, or something like that. I'll make up my own version later.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 15, 2012, 11:15:05 PM
Awesome stuff I don't want to forget.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87837

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87837
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: Garryl on November 15, 2012, 11:23:34 PM
:cloud9

True Recall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5725988)

Discover Truth (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1410.0;msg=12455). Psionics came first (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020623c).
Hmm... seems too good for a 2nd level power, but I'm not all that crazy about the spell version above, either (your entire life? come on man... that's nuts). I'd prefer some combination, like "nerfing" the spell to only show you a 30 second window as the power does, but reducing the casting time to always be 1 standard action, or something like that. I'll make up my own version later.

What's so overly powerful about it? It's like True Seeing in the past (no combat applications), and the limited time frame means you already need to know what to look for. Plus, it's in psionics's core focus (mind stuff), which usually lets them have more powerful effects or lower power levels than comparable spells.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 15, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
I was just thinking about it from the perspective of a DM. This would ruin a lot of common plot elements (the mayor has been replaced by a doppelganger) much earlier than magic typically does. True Seeing is a powerful effect, hence it being a 5th level power. Even having a limited form of it in the past seems worth more than a 2nd level effect, but honestly I'm not sure what level it should be... Maybe it is OK at 2nd. It was more of a knee-jerk reaction, I guess.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 16, 2012, 04:08:51 PM
Added onto the Awakened Dreamer PrC. Still thinking about what to add at the dead levels.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: Garryl on November 16, 2012, 04:15:38 PM
Do you think any of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178837) could be of interest? I never got around to finishing it, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 16, 2012, 05:45:03 PM
Do you think any of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178837) could be of interest? I never got around to finishing it, unfortunately.
I like that very much. Yes, I think that would mesh with this project nicely.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: Garryl on November 17, 2012, 11:51:50 PM
On a related note, have you ever looked at Xenotheurgy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122103)? I made a dream-based PrC (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6121) for it a while back.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 18, 2012, 12:06:41 AM
On a related note, have you ever looked at Xenotheurgy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122103)? I made a dream-based PrC (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6121) for it a while back.
Not very much. The system looks interesting, but I just haven't had time to check it out beyond a cursory glancing over.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: veekie on November 19, 2012, 11:49:59 AM
Some looser stuff that'd probably be hard to apply:
Causality - Dreams have SOME form of cause and effect, but they are linked by symbolism, and loose in target. When you close a door, something else closes. When one thing breaks, so does another. Some forms of sympathetic effect or side effect could be possible, some part of manipulating a dream involves identifying how the abstract and the material are connected, and then altering one to change another.

Symbolism - Relating to the above, you then need some way to organize themes, if only by keywords. A happy dream for example, might be associated with positive imagery in the dream itself, bright, warm things, or living things, so to affect the entire dreamscape, you only need to find the strongest anchor to it's image and contaminate that. Likewise, bringing a thing into it's antithesis can have either one swamped and transformed, a candle might banish the dark, or it might be consumed, the only factor is the belief and symbols placed into it. Might have application in dream-focus objects and auto-suggestion props, condensing particular memories and belief into things that are more real than the rest of the dream.

Scale invariance - From the above, size doesn't matter across categories, only within categories. The image of a mountain against a rampant dog might be equal, but a dog with a dinosaur is not. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this though.
Title: Re: Brainstorming the Dreamscape
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 18, 2013, 08:05:53 PM
A dream I had.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8233.msg202634#msg202634