Author Topic: Pure Crafting  (Read 61325 times)

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2013, 11:37:17 AM »
It's good to hear that at least two people around here think that they would still pick magic items over pure metal. That shows that it's not quite as unbalanced as I think, at least not in the types of games that two people play in (highly optimized games, I assume). Really, this probably just needs to be playtested. I imagine that I'm right about some of the balance problems, and wrong about others. In particular, it would be worth testing what happens when a party of PCs with magic equipment go up against a party of monsters with pure metal (and maybe one spellcaster, to balance things out).

On the PC, I will probably be building a character using pure metal in the next couple of days. It may or may not end up being played but there's a possibility.

On the DM side, I would not be at all surprised if Oslecamo already has encounters involving pure metal equipped monsters lined up in one or more of his games. This is the guy who wrote the handbook on souping up monsters to challenge PCs, after all.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2013, 12:44:25 PM »
By the same logic, spellcasting classes are vastly more powerful for the cost than full Bab classes, so it's stupid to choose full bab classes. :p
I get your point, but the fact that the game has imbalances is not an excuse to add an additional imbalance.

If one side of the scale is too heavy, you add some weight to the other side. That's how balance works.

Add too much weight to both sides and the scale breaks.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2013, 02:25:51 PM »
I just realized one more thing, which might have been a mistake on your part: You say you can change the radius of the AMF at will, with Artifactwork Cold Iron armor. This means you could change the radius to 0', and be permanently immune to all magic.
Instant conjurations go trough AMFs just fine.

Okay, most magic. It's still pretty powerful to be immune to almost every targetted or AoO spell, SLA and SU in the game, with no penalty to yourself at all (since you're not using magic items). In the normal game, Antimagic Field comes with serious down-sides.
It has big penalties to yourself. You can't benefit from your own Su abilities, receive buffs from party casters, receive su auras such as bardic music, etc, etc.

It's good to hear that at least two people around here think that they would still pick magic items over pure metal. That shows that it's not quite as unbalanced as I think, at least not in the types of games that two people play in (highly optimized games, I assume). Really, this probably just needs to be playtested. I imagine that I'm right about some of the balance problems, and wrong about others. In particular, it would be worth testing what happens when a party of PCs with magic equipment go up against a party of monsters with pure metal (and maybe one spellcaster, to balance things out).
Well, if you go by standard treasure, monsters will never have artifactwork or phantasmwork stuff (lv 20 average monster treasure is just 80 000 GP, relicwork alone has value over 115 000 GP). Only after level 13 they can afford relicwork, assuming they're medium or small sized.

And then, many monsters rely on powerful SLAs to support themselves. If they wear pure metal, they may gain raw combat numbers, but pay that in utility and variety. No teleports, mass charms, invisibilities, save-or-suck, etc, etc. And must still spend feats becoming proficient.

The monsters that at the top of my head benefit more would be giants, since they don't have SLAs but do have nice weapon and armor proficiencies.

Let's take the iconic fire giant, 5800 GP to spend. Make its half-plate pure iron for 2400 GP, then its greatsword pure cold iron for 1400 gp, and a back-up pure silver longbow for 1710 gp in case you have to face ethereal opponents or just need ranged combat.

So that gives it +11 to damage rolls, enemies can't cast defensively and ignores all miss chances when it threatens a crit (10% of the time), +9 to AC  for a total of 32 (and a touch AC of 24, meaning touch attacks don't auto-hit it) and hardness 8 (nice because it still didn't have any DR).

It's stronger? Yes. Will it auto-crush parties of 10th level? No. If anything, it may actually give them a good challenge now, because he can actually harm ethereal opponents, casters can't just stand in front of him laughing while maiming him with touch attack, and it's also harder to just kite him with ranged attacks while flying.

Regarding AC, yes, AC is probably overpriced, especially on armor, but it's still an important factor. If you use standard, unmodified monsters from the Monster Manual, and your AC is 22 higher than expected, there's a good chance the monsters aren't going to be able to hit you, except on a 20. By providing such a huge AC bonus, you're forcing monsters to have better equipment or class levels, or common access to certain spells.
If there's something that MM monsters have no lack of, is massive to-hit bonus. A black wyrm has a whooping +46 to hit before you start factoring in feats, spells or equipment. Often the question is if the monster will hit, but how much you can power attack with  before you start missing with anything but natural 1s.

On the PC, I will probably be building a character using pure metal in the next couple of days. It may or may not end up being played but there's a possibility.

On the DM side, I would not be at all surprised if Oslecamo already has encounters involving pure metal equipped monsters lined up in one or more of his games. This is the guy who wrote the handbook on souping up monsters to challenge PCs, after all.
Just planned? I already tried it out online.  :smirk

I get your point, but the fact that the game has imbalances is not an excuse to add an additional imbalance.

If one side of the scale is too heavy, you add some weight to the other side. That's how balance works.

Add too much weight to both sides and the scale breaks.

Trust me, I would love to take some weight on the heavier side of the scales, but it's my experience that a massive fraction of the 3.X gaming population will cry foul if anyone dares to try to make any significant neerf on wizard/cleric and friends, at least not whitout giving said wizard/cleric even more buffs in return (see: 4e's fall and pathfinder's rise).
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 02:29:29 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #83 on: April 09, 2013, 12:40:59 PM »
Quote
Anyway, spending all your levels on classes with full Bab counts as sacrificing finite resources. Also you only have one armor slot last time I checked, so if you're wearing pure silver armor, you're not wearing pure iron armor, or +1 ghostward displacement armor, or +1 ghostward disclacement glamorous commanding armor with greater crystal of hardening/etc (aka you can combine magic armor properties at almost leisure and then plenty of extras, not so much with pure metals).
Not if those full bab classes aren't bad. There are no lack of those. Especially with your homebrew that's already taking nonspellcasting as an excuse to give good stuff each level.
There are classes advancing Bab and spellcasting and it isn't like there weren't sneaky tricks to use pure metal items despite being a spellcaster, which weren't too hard to figure.
Not sure why you're mentioning that only one armor can be worn at a time. Being only able to wear one doesn't count as a "sacrifice" of other possible body slot options.
Also... were those supposed to actually be examples of good magical armor abilities?

All I see required besides flesh in page 207 is that alchemist labs or evil temples may be needed. Not exactly expendable stuff.
Right after that part, it mentions the need of a supply of materials, including the actual body part. The Graft Flesh feat description also mentions the need of expensive raw materials.

Also, sleep eye stalk graft. You claim it's extraordinary? And fairly priced at almost 200k gold for 3/day sleep? :psyduck
Did I mention it was fairly priced or that all grafts were? Where?
Can't say for sure that the effect of the graft isn't supernatural, but the graft itself is extraordinary. They have no caster level and radiate no magic.

Some look like they're worth it, but there's still a lot of crap in there.
Which is very normal. Look at the ratio of magic items that are actually worth it to the mountain of junk they hide within.

However, your claims that monks are good balance points aside
You really read only what you want to read. Never said Monks as a whole were good. Just that they were sacrificing the use of armor for a neat AC bonus ability.

I already said you can refluff it as you please, so... Any specific complain besides metaphilosophical discussions about grafts, that are a completely diferent kind of item (slotless, most don't care about your abilities, almost everybody can use them).
Not sure what's metaphilosophical about it but it wasn't actually a complaint, which is kinda why I'm not sure why you started making arguments against them. It was just an example of why pure metal rarity didn't have to be a factor in the pricing of the items crafted with it.

That aside, no. Just the original comment: Their worth must be in line with the power they grant.
I'm not gonna read and review each effect. It doesn't matter what an item grants as long as its market price is high enough to compensate.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 12:43:57 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #84 on: April 09, 2013, 12:47:38 PM »
Quote
You really read only what you want to read. Never said Monks as a whole were good. Just that they were sacrificing the use of armor for a neat AC bonus ability.

Eh, all it does is contribute further to the MAD. They only get it unarmoured, so they're just as well served pimping dexterity... XD

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #85 on: April 09, 2013, 02:28:36 PM »
You really want to discuss how good the Monk's AC bonus ability is? Seems kinda pointless but alright.
X to Y abilities are strong. Especially at the higher levels where getting average+ ability scores all around isn't so difficult.
It is an easy dip and was made into a popular magic belt and class variants. How good it actually is to the Monk himself is irrelevant.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2013, 02:31:29 PM »
"I sacrifice my armour for AC!" still reads as one of the most illogical sacrifices ever. You sacrifice having something to protect yourself with, in order to protect yourself? @_@

Offline Amechra

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2013, 02:35:56 PM »
At low levels with PB, it's actually cheaper to spread your ability scores around:

I mean, the highest you can pump your Dexterity (without templates and +LA) is a +5 modifier at character creation. Having a Dex of 16 and a Wis of 16, on  the other hand, gives you +6, and leaves you room to buy other stuff.

Especially if you've got a race that boosts both Dex and Wis (Were-Rat Template class, anyone? if you take 3 levels, it gets you +6 Dex and +2 Wis.)
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2013, 06:21:26 PM »
Quote
Anyway, spending all your levels on classes with full Bab counts as sacrificing finite resources. Also you only have one armor slot last time I checked, so if you're wearing pure silver armor, you're not wearing pure iron armor, or +1 ghostward displacement armor, or +1 ghostward disclacement glamorous commanding armor with greater crystal of hardening/etc (aka you can combine magic armor properties at almost leisure and then plenty of extras, not so much with pure metals).
Not if those full bab classes aren't bad. There are no lack of those. Especially with your homebrew that's already taking nonspellcasting as an excuse to give good stuff each level.
There are classes advancing Bab and spellcasting and it isn't like there weren't sneaky tricks to use pure metal items despite being a spellcaster, which weren't too hard to figure.
Mind sharing those tricks with us?

Not sure why you're mentioning that only one armor can be worn at a time. Being only able to wear one doesn't count as a "sacrifice" of other possible body slot options.
Also... were those supposed to actually be examples of good magical armor abilities?
No, it was suposed to be an example that there's plenty of ways to pimp up magic armor. Not so much for pure metal armor.

All I see required besides flesh in page 207 is that alchemist labs or evil temples may be needed. Not exactly expendable stuff.
Right after that part, it mentions the need of a supply of materials, including the actual body part. The Graft Flesh feat description also mentions the need of expensive raw materials.

Also, sleep eye stalk graft. You claim it's extraordinary? And fairly priced at almost 200k gold for 3/day sleep? :psyduck
Did I mention it was fairly priced or that all grafts were? Where?
Can't say for sure that the effect of the graft isn't supernatural, but the graft itself is extraordinary. They have no caster level and radiate no magic.
Great, that means a good chunk of the eye stalk grafts do nothing. Zero caster level means zero duration for charms and slow. Disintegrate and fear only do anything if the opponent makes the save. Telekinesis can still do some stuff. Badly.

I already said you can refluff it as you please, so... Any specific complain besides metaphilosophical discussions about grafts, that are a completely diferent kind of item (slotless, most don't care about your abilities, almost everybody can use them).
Not sure what's metaphilosophical about it but it wasn't actually a complaint, which is kinda why I'm not sure why you started making arguments against them. It was just an example of why pure metal rarity didn't have to be a factor in the pricing of the items crafted with it.

That aside, no. Just the original comment: Their worth must be in line with the power they grant.
I'm not gonna read and review each effect. It doesn't matter what an item grants as long as its market price is high enough to compensate.
Phantasmwork currently has a market price of over 1 million GP. That's over the WBL of a level 20th character. You claim it still isn't enough?

I made the prices big enough to make sure you'll have an hard time buying stuff for your level following standard pricing, and even if you craft them yourself, you'll have to spend a good chunk of your wealth to have a full gerout of best stuff for your Bab.


Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2013, 01:57:35 AM »
Mind sharing those tricks with us?
Yes. I don't share tricks. Those aren't too special and you're smart, so I'm sure you can figure most of them out.
Still, I guess it is mostly relevant since limiting access to spellcasting-related abilities and items is supposed to be a balance point, so I'll just say that you simply need to not have your pure metal shield and weapon equipped when you're using spells/spell items, then equip (or simply just hold again, for the weapons, tower shield and other shields you just need to hold for efficient use) them again when you're done. Not that hard to accomplish.

Great, that means a good chunk of the eye stalk grafts do nothing. Zero caster level means zero duration for charms and slow. Disintegrate and fear only do anything if the opponent makes the save. Telekinesis can still do some stuff. Badly.
Still, it does mention that their granted effect duplicates the effects of their respective eyestalks, which is probably meant to include the effects as per their caster level on the beholder monster. So they'd basically get a non-magical version of a CL 13 eye ray.
Not that it matters if it doesn't since I doubt people were buying those anyway.

Phantasmwork currently has a market price of over 1 million GP. That's over the WBL of a level 20th character. You claim it still isn't enough?
I did? I claimed phantasmwork wasn't expensive enough?
I don't recall giving a specific opinion on any one pure metal piece.

I see though that unlike most crafting feats it bypasses the XP cost and half charge by using normal crafting methods, which are meant for mundane items.
Although certainly not magical, these items are certainly not mundane. Craft feats technically offers the craftsman a 30% discount for the item's creation.
1/25 XP (5gp per XP) + 1/2 market price = 70% of the market price.

These do it the other way around, granting a 66.6% discount.

There are also mundane versions of weapons made of gold/platinum in Magic of Faerun called "Heavy Weapons", which increase the size damage of the weapon by one, but requires and Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to use correctly. It gives an idea of the worth of a mundane weapon giving +1 size damage before any other extras.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #90 on: April 10, 2013, 08:52:42 AM »
Mind sharing those tricks with us?
Yes. I don't share tricks. Those aren't too special and you're smart, so I'm sure you can figure most of them out.
Still, I guess it is mostly relevant since limiting access to spellcasting-related abilities and items is supposed to be a balance point, so I'll just say that you simply need to not have your pure metal shield and weapon equipped when you're using spells/spell items, then equip (or simply just hold again, for the weapons, tower shield and other shields you just need to hold
for efficient use) them again when you're done. Not that hard to accomplish.
I had already pointed out that strategy as intended, in particular for stuff like the ranger and paladins. Fullcasters have better strategies than going around swinging weapons. Armors on the other hand take their sweet time to put on/off. Even puting shields on/off is at least a move action, and you still need proficiency to make it work. Most casters aren't proficient in anything heavier than light armor, if anything at all, and no, no base fullcaster class has full Bab. If the cleric wants to give up mobility and immediate action spells so he can go around straping a pure metal shield in and out every turn, that's fine by me.

Phantasmwork currently has a market price of over 1 million GP. That's over the WBL of a level 20th character. You claim it still isn't enough?
I did? I claimed phantasmwork wasn't expensive enough?
I don't recall giving a specific opinion on any one pure metal piece.

I see though that unlike most crafting feats it bypasses the XP cost and half charge by using normal crafting methods, which are meant for mundane items.
Although certainly not magical, these items are certainly not mundane. Craft feats technically offers the craftsman a 30% discount for the item's creation.
1/25 XP (5gp per XP) + 1/2 market price = 70% of the market price.

These do it the other way around, granting a 66.6% discount.

There are also mundane versions of weapons made of gold/platinum in Magic of Faerun called "Heavy Weapons", which increase the size damage of the weapon by one, but requires and Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to use correctly. It gives an idea of the worth of a mundane weapon giving +1 size damage before any other extras.
No, it doesn't. It's widely agreed that spending a feat in an exotic weapon that just deals a bit more damage than the martial equivalent is a waste of a feat.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #91 on: April 10, 2013, 09:03:22 AM »
I'm fine with you believing all that.
The anti-spellcaster balancing clause will remain something that makes me smile.

No, it doesn't. It's widely agreed that spending a feat in an exotic weapon that just deals a bit more damage than the martial equivalent is a waste of a feat.
Is it, now?
I've seen so many get feats just to be able to use bigger weapons or deal the next step of size damage. Often doing so to reach high damage by accumulating size increasing effects to ridiculous heights.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #92 on: April 10, 2013, 10:10:11 AM »
I'm fine with you believing all that.
The anti-spellcaster balancing clause will remain something that makes me smile.

If you're fine with it then why continue to give vague input?

Quote
No, it doesn't. It's widely agreed that spending a feat in an exotic weapon that just deals a bit more damage than the martial equivalent is a waste of a feat.
Is it, now?
I've seen so many get feats just to be able to use bigger weapons or deal the next step of size damage. Often doing so to reach high damage by accumulating size increasing effects to ridiculous heights.

Yes, it is widely agreed upon.  The only time I see anyone regularly take Exotic Weapon Proficiency is to get Spiked Chain proficiency or proficiency with any of the other exotic weapons that can give you reach but let you threaten all squares you can hit.


Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #93 on: April 10, 2013, 12:51:59 PM »
There's also some exotic weapons with funky effects that are worth it like the sharktooth stuff that can grapple people it hits.

But otherwise yes, anomander's being too vague for me to understand what exactly he's complaining about. Armor and shield rules specify it pretty clear how fast it is to don/remove that kind of stuff (faster is 5 rounds for light armors), and pure crafting specifies you need to have the item equiped to gain the benefits, not just touching.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2013, 03:57:08 AM »
Doesn't mean it should require an Exotic Weapon proficiency feat, could mean its worth around 5k to 10k by itself though. A continual Enlarge Weapon spell effect would cost 48k, but that's too much for its worth.

I'm not complaining about anything.
Its mostly just comments. A complaint would imply that I'm discontent about it. I've said stuff on which you took unrelated points like Grafts and somehow pushed it long enough to believe it was all about pure crafting somehow.

My original comment was just my agreeing with zioth's points. I'm not making a full review of the pure metals.
I did mention the high discount on pure metal crafting. Was it too vague?
Might as well mention making the crafting time take only 8 hours isn't a good idea. Putting it more along the lines of the other craft feats would help to prevent easy abuses, though getting back the XP cost into the equation could be a good alternative, maybe. Even that might bee too nice when you can just craft and sell again and again for infinite money.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 04:23:03 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2013, 08:26:00 AM »
You theoretically can already do that with regular crafting (why yes my warforged/other immortal race spent the last 10 millenia crafting and selling mundane stuff, can I start the game with some billions of GP worth of stuff?). Good luck making it fly trough any DM.

8 hours  base stay because you aren't making reality-tearing scrolls or whatnot.

However this reminds me there's no times for upgrading from base weapon to higher stuff, so added them (24 hours for MW, 1 week for relicwork, one year for phantasmwork).

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2013, 09:41:16 AM »
One year is a LOT of downtime. @_@

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2013, 02:01:26 PM »
You theoretically can already do that with regular crafting (why yes my warforged/other immortal race spent the last 10 millenia crafting and selling mundane stuff, can I start the game with some billions of GP worth of stuff?). Good luck making it fly trough any DM.
Not quite.
When you begin you have a set of starting gold by level. Your starting gold represents what a character has after all his gains and expenses before the campaign begin.
It only changes if the DM changes it.

However, what is done during the game is supposed to be alright. If you can do regular crafting to make any adamantine object in less than a day, then you're in for easy and quick profit. It could instead have a proportional craft time by pure metal type/upgrade.

You've avoided the high discounts again.
Also, how do you make basic pure silver/gold/etc) items? Crafting with these special materials makes them masterwork by default.
Speaking of which, the special effect probably shouldn't be available to basic pure items. Their effect is of very high worth even at their lowest and nothing less than a masterwork weapon makes a proper coat of arms.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2013, 02:06:13 PM »
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Also, how do you make basic pure silver/gold/etc) items? Crafting with these special materials makes them masterwork by default.

Because it's not normal gold, logically.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pure Crafting
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2013, 02:15:11 PM »
But the modified price assumes you craft them as their normal counterpart. Its the pricing difference between pure iron and, say, pure adamantine.