Author Topic: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom  (Read 168598 times)

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #920 on: March 26, 2017, 07:22:43 AM »
Well IE is feel more like DDoSing but I suppose I get ya point. I wanna make a character for that IE school. Too many things I want to do, not enough high-powered, futuristic, homebrew acceptable games about haha.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #921 on: March 26, 2017, 10:15:12 AM »
If the turret is not at the center of the base, it also means you can go around the perimeter and have an easier time getting into its blind spot.

A feat that makes no sense.

How can I have a turret that is able to fire at 10,000 miles or more with the same accuracy as at effective point blank... and at the same time, because of positioning, have a minimum range in the other direction of 30' to 60' or something similarly ridiculous.

It's called hyper specialization. The turret is carefully calibrated for firing at certain set of angles and distances from its position, and cannot aim at all at anything outside its parameters.

Do notice that this means turrets from one base cannot fire into another base's area, and even a 20th level support staff can only cram 20 turrets to support each other assuming they don't build anything else in that fortification.

Also the reason why you can't just rip it off and carry around. Would only render useless all the careful calibrations and now it can't hit anything at all.

That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #922 on: March 26, 2017, 08:03:31 PM »
That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

It matters because it's the difference between getting focus fired by ~10 turrets or ~100 turrets when you go to assault enemy land.

It is also a lot more complicated. Whereas with the hyperspecialized turrets you just need to determine the base's area and you automatically know where any and all turrets can fire, all-range turrets means an exponentially more complicated problem where you need to individually calculate each turret's firing range, and then rewards fortifications with lots of weird pointy extensions to maximize the area they can shoot at.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #923 on: March 26, 2017, 09:14:56 PM »
That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

It matters because it's the difference between getting focus fired by ~10 turrets or ~100 turrets when you go to assault enemy land.

I don't see how the number of turrets hitting you can suddenly go up by an entire order of magnitude by introducing actual range mechanics. For that to be the case, the range would have to be set incredibly high and all the turrets focused along one particular path of entry... which actually provides a much better tactical option for breaking through the lines of turrets, since this means that in the multiple overlapping 10,000 square mile areas, there's got to be huge area with no coverage at all (the Maginot Line comes to mind). Rather than the "can arbitrarily shoot anywhere in this area" option of being able, at best, to avoid being shot by one of them.

And unless the areas are for no valid reason being arranged so that the majority of the area is far away from the front lines but they have a single tendril of land to stick turrets on, because rules can't really be made to prevent such blatantly idiotic DMing, there's not really an issue. Multiple bases are already requiring you to control land equal to entire European countries. <_<

Quote
It is also a lot more complicated. Whereas with the hyperspecialized turrets you just need to determine the base's area and you automatically know where any and all turrets can fire, all-range turrets means an exponentially more complicated problem where you need to individually calculate each turret's firing range, and then rewards fortifications with lots of weird pointy extensions to maximize the area they can shoot at.

It means getting a compass, or virtual equivalent, which is a lot less complicated than working out the range and spell effects for a mid-level wizard's spells given that they keep moving and the land, presumably, does not. And actually leaves room for cover or inconvenient mountains to have a purpose.

Rewarding fortification design that actually resembles some sort of fortification, rather than having your turrets be as unsupported as possible, does not look like a bad thing.

What we have right now isn't a turret, it's the world's worst targeting laser for some really bad orbital cannons.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #924 on: March 26, 2017, 09:36:45 PM »
That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

It matters because it's the difference between getting focus fired by ~10 turrets or ~100 turrets when you go to assault enemy land.

I don't see how the number of turrets hitting you can suddenly go up by an entire order of magnitude by introducing actual range mechanics. For that to be the case, the range would have to be set incredibly high and all the turrets focused along one particular path of entry... which actually provides a much better tactical option for breaking through the lines of turrets, since this means that in the multiple overlapping 10,000 square mile areas, there's got to be huge area with no coverage at all (the Maginot Line comes to mind). Rather than the "can arbitrarily shoot anywhere in this area" option of being able, at best, to avoid being shot by one of them.

And unless the areas are for no valid reason being arranged so that the majority of the area is far away from the front lines but they have a single tendril of land to stick turrets on, because rules can't really be made to prevent such blatantly idiotic DMing, there's not really an issue. Multiple bases are already requiring you to control land equal to entire European countries. <_<
You mean like being USA/China/Russia/India/Brasil/Australia? Or the part where most European countries have a defensive alliance and they would shoot anyone trying to invade their neighbours? Or that we're talking about a futuristic setting where whole planets may be under a single government plus fortified moons and big asteroids and whatnot?

The Maginot line is remembered as one of the most epic failures of fortification design. The country that built it was defeated and conquered faster than it had ever been before. It's as far away from "a much better tactical option" as you could possibly go as far as fortifications with big guns go. 


Quote
It is also a lot more complicated. Whereas with the hyperspecialized turrets you just need to determine the base's area and you automatically know where any and all turrets can fire, all-range turrets means an exponentially more complicated problem where you need to individually calculate each turret's firing range, and then rewards fortifications with lots of weird pointy extensions to maximize the area they can shoot at.

It means getting a compass, or virtual equivalent, which is a lot less complicated than working out the range and spell effects for a mid-level wizard's spells given that they keep moving and the land, presumably, does not. And actually leaves room for cover or inconvenient mountains to have a purpose.

Rewarding fortification design that actually resembles some sort of fortification, rather than having your turrets be as unsupported as possible, does not look like a bad thing.

What we have right now isn't a turret, it's the world's worst targeting laser for some really bad orbital cannons.

There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 09:40:11 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #925 on: March 26, 2017, 10:09:45 PM »
That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

It matters because it's the difference between getting focus fired by ~10 turrets or ~100 turrets when you go to assault enemy land.

I don't see how the number of turrets hitting you can suddenly go up by an entire order of magnitude by introducing actual range mechanics. For that to be the case, the range would have to be set incredibly high and all the turrets focused along one particular path of entry... which actually provides a much better tactical option for breaking through the lines of turrets, since this means that in the multiple overlapping 10,000 square mile areas, there's got to be huge area with no coverage at all (the Maginot Line comes to mind). Rather than the "can arbitrarily shoot anywhere in this area" option of being able, at best, to avoid being shot by one of them.

And unless the areas are for no valid reason being arranged so that the majority of the area is far away from the front lines but they have a single tendril of land to stick turrets on, because rules can't really be made to prevent such blatantly idiotic DMing, there's not really an issue. Multiple bases are already requiring you to control land equal to entire European countries. <_<
You mean like being USA/China/Russia/India/Brasil/Australia? Or the part where most European countries have a defensive alliance and they would shoot anyone trying to invade their neighbours? Or that we're talking about a futuristic setting where whole planets may be under a single government plus fortified moons and big asteroids and whatnot?

The Maginot line is remembered as one of the most epic failures of fortification design. The country that built it was defeated and conquered faster than it had ever been before. It's as far away from "a much better tactical option" as you could possibly go as far as fortifications with big guns go. 

I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.


Quote
Quote
It is also a lot more complicated. Whereas with the hyperspecialized turrets you just need to determine the base's area and you automatically know where any and all turrets can fire, all-range turrets means an exponentially more complicated problem where you need to individually calculate each turret's firing range, and then rewards fortifications with lots of weird pointy extensions to maximize the area they can shoot at.

It means getting a compass, or virtual equivalent, which is a lot less complicated than working out the range and spell effects for a mid-level wizard's spells given that they keep moving and the land, presumably, does not. And actually leaves room for cover or inconvenient mountains to have a purpose.

Rewarding fortification design that actually resembles some sort of fortification, rather than having your turrets be as unsupported as possible, does not look like a bad thing.

What we have right now isn't a turret, it's the world's worst targeting laser for some really bad orbital cannons.

There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.
[/quote]

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #926 on: March 26, 2017, 10:39:06 PM »
Question on those towers; how high are they? They are treated as colossal but they have a 30x30mu base and towers rarely qualify as towers when they are shaped like a cube.
I'm wondering how high the surface to build upon would have to be above sea level to get all of the the horizon in sight to be within its firing range on an Earth-like planet.
Though it may be that those towers can shoot stuff beyond the horizon, the shots following the curvature of the planet and so on.
Not that I'm planning to have one done. Just wondering.

Quote
(nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)
Unless you're small enough.
Maybe there are jammers that can help, though maybe not yet. Anyway, bases are usually captured by armies and armies are normally hard to hide.
You can also sneak to a tower using one of the most basic espionage tactics; disguises. It is not because it can detect you that it cannot be fooled into thinking you are a neutral/allied unit. There is even a lvl 2 arsenal accessory to disguise your mecha.
Unless it somehow automatically knows what is an enemy and what isn't. Which would be weird.
That difference is likely programmed to it in a way similar to how some trap spells work.
In game that is also probably something that can be tempered with. Disable Device, so on and so forth. What's its Spot modifier to defeat a disguise? Without one it more or less automatically fails against a mere level 1 rogue waltzing to it with an electrician box checking in for "maintenance".
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 10:44:19 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #927 on: March 26, 2017, 10:51:23 PM »
Quote
(nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)
Unless you're small enough.
Maybe there are jammers that can help, though maybe not yet. Anyway, bases are usually captured by armies and armies are normally hard to hide.
You can also sneak to a tower using one of the most basic espionage tactics; disguises. It is not because it can detect you that it cannot be fooled into thinking you are a neutral/allied unit. There is even a lvl 2 arsenal accessory to disguise your mecha.
Unless it somehow automatically knows what is an enemy and what isn't. Which would be weird.
That difference is likely programmed to it in a way similar to how some trap spells work.
In game that is also probably something that can be tempered with. Disable Device, so on and so forth. What's its Spot modifier to defeat a disguise? Without one it more or less automatically fails against a mere level 1 rogue waltzing to it with an electrician box checking in for "maintenance".

As of right now, it's got a perfect friend-or-foe thing going on and ignores the actual stealth skills and invisibility entirely. I'm pretty sure there's more I'm missing, but "it can be defeated by not being inside a mecha" doesn't seem like a great reason to just have it automatically defeat all other methods of sneaking by.

I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one giant robot that could be stealthy. :lmao

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #928 on: March 26, 2017, 11:01:51 PM »
I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.
Indeed, the idea is to keep it simple, having turrets that actually pose a threat that isn't easily ignorable without turning SRW d20 into siege warfare simulator.


Quote
There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

If you cast Scry to find the position of someone behind a wall and cast True Strike, can you hit them behind the wall? I believe you can't.

Speaking of which, the turrets are objects, so they also block line of effect. So mechas that aren't too big can indeed take cover on their dead zones from other turrets. There's your tactical advance.

Super anti-stealth because turrets are immobile objects and thus can't take feats or items or whatnot and there's just too many stealth abilities around.

Also you were previously claiming that the current turret range is overcomplicating it. Yet you now admit your proposed system demands extra time and effort for drawing circles. You just admitted your system is the one that's actually more complicated.

Question on those towers; how high are they? They are treated as colossal but they have a 30x30mu base and towers rarely qualify as towers when they are shaped like a cube.
I'm wondering how high the surface to build upon would have to be above sea level to get all of the the horizon in sight to be within its firing range on an Earth-like planet.
Though it may be that those towers can shoot stuff beyond the horizon, the shots following the curvature of the planet and so on.
Not that I'm planning to have one done. Just wondering.
Advanced interceptor turret technology is most efficient with 30 mu tall cubic shapes.

Just like the most optimal shape for futuristic warmachines is roughly humanoid. :p

Quote
(nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)
Unless you're small enough.
Maybe there are jammers that can help, though maybe not yet. Anyway, bases are usually captured by armies and armies are normally hard to hide.
You can also sneak to a tower using one of the most basic espionage tactics; disguises. It is not because it can detect you that it cannot be fooled into thinking you are a neutral/allied unit. There is even a lvl 2 arsenal accessory to disguise your mecha.
Unless it somehow automatically knows what is an enemy and what isn't. Which would be weird.
That difference is likely programmed to it in a way similar to how some trap spells work.
In game that is also probably something that can be tempered with. Disable Device, so on and so forth. What's its Spot modifier to defeat a disguise? Without one it more or less automatically fails against a mere level 1 rogue waltzing to it with an electrician box checking in for "maintenance".

Hmm, good point. Need something to distinguish friend from foe. Added that each turret has a database of not-enemies and anything that's big enough for it to detect qualifies as enemy unless in the database. Sees through disguises, but also anyone can change the turret's database as a fullround action while adjacent, so if you get close enough, you can turn the turret on the base's defenders. The level 1 rogue could pull it off if you don't have conventional guards close by.

I'll probably go around making the jammer arsenals and super robot undetectable work against it too.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #929 on: March 26, 2017, 11:12:24 PM »
I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.
Indeed, the idea is to keep it simple, having turrets that actually pose a threat that isn't easily ignorable without turning SRW d20 into siege warfare simulator.

But by your own statements, they're easily ignorable provided you have the precise abilities that work against being shot repeatedly by the same thing. Or teleport past. If you don't. they're an impassable obstacle that will shred anyone trying to get close. Siege warfare or reasonable infiltration is better than a solution of "negate it or go on foot over a minimum of 50 miles".

Quote
Quote
There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

If you cast Scry to find the position of someone behind a wall and cast True Strike, can you hit them behind the wall? I believe you can't.

Speaking of which, the turrets are objects, so they also block line of effect. So mechas that aren't too big can indeed take cover on their dead zones from other turrets. There's your tactical advance.

Super anti-stealth because turrets are immobile objects and thus can't take feats or items or whatnot and there's just too many stealth abilities around.

Also you were previously claiming that the current turret range is overcomplicating it. Yet you now admit your proposed system demands extra time and effort for drawing circles. You just admitted your system is the one that's actually more complicated.

Well, the turrets are ranged weapons that don't obey normal ranged rules and automatically ignore being hidden (lovely, a level 4 turret can detect a level 20 with god knows how many points in move silently and hide) and instantly detect things that they don't have LoE to, so why would I ever assume that LoE applies to their own firing? But now that LoE does apply to their ability to fire things, they're operating on special rules and I still have to draw lines all over the map to work out where each turret can't fire anyway.

So just sticking to the normal ranged rules and giving them a spot score/see invisibility is simpler after all. It's not like there aren't already modifiers for different sizes... <_<

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #930 on: March 26, 2017, 11:34:38 PM »
I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.
Indeed, the idea is to keep it simple, having turrets that actually pose a threat that isn't easily ignorable without turning SRW d20 into siege warfare simulator.

But by your own statements, they're easily ignorable provided you have the precise abilities that work against being shot repeatedly by the same thing. Or teleport past. If you don't. they're an impassable obstacle that will shred anyone trying to get close. Siege warfare or reasonable infiltration is better than a solution of "negate it or go on foot over a minimum of 50 miles".

Infiltration is still possible with the current system. Heck, it'll be more once I finish updating the arsenal anti-radars.

Anyway yes, in mecha shows you don't take conquer fortifications by carefully calculating vectors of advance, you charge in guns blazing and either are tough/dodgy/numerous enough to survive the turrets or you end a pile of scrap (or, again, get some super weapon to nuke it from even further range, Ace Pilot has Ambush to snipe stuff at unlimited range starting at 11th level and everything).

Quote
Quote
There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

If you cast Scry to find the position of someone behind a wall and cast True Strike, can you hit them behind the wall? I believe you can't.

Speaking of which, the turrets are objects, so they also block line of effect. So mechas that aren't too big can indeed take cover on their dead zones from other turrets. There's your tactical advance.

Super anti-stealth because turrets are immobile objects and thus can't take feats or items or whatnot and there's just too many stealth abilities around.

Also you were previously claiming that the current turret range is overcomplicating it. Yet you now admit your proposed system demands extra time and effort for drawing circles. You just admitted your system is the one that's actually more complicated.

Well, the turrets are ranged weapons that don't obey normal ranged rules and automatically ignore being hidden (lovely, a level 4 turret can detect a level 20 with god knows how many points in move silently and hide) and instantly detect things that they don't have LoE to, so why would I ever assume that LoE applies to their own firing? But now that LoE does apply to their ability to fire things, they're operating on special rules and I still have to draw lines all over the map to work out where each turret can't fire anyway.

So just sticking to the normal ranged rules and giving them a spot score/see invisibility is simpler after all. It's not like there aren't already modifiers for different sizes... <_<
My system:
1-Are they inside the base area?
2-Is there a valid LoE for each turret?
3-DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

Your system:
1-Check if they're in range of the turrets.
2-Still need to check LoE for each turret.
3-Roll listen for the turrets.
4-Roll spot  against hide for each turret.
5-Roll spot against disguise for each turret.
6-DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

That's literally double the calculations involded. Assuming there's the same number of turrets in each scenario. But while one system caps at 20 turrets at 20th level, the other system can have hundreds of turrets in range if you cheese the areas of the bases.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #931 on: March 26, 2017, 11:57:53 PM »
I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.
Indeed, the idea is to keep it simple, having turrets that actually pose a threat that isn't easily ignorable without turning SRW d20 into siege warfare simulator.

But by your own statements, they're easily ignorable provided you have the precise abilities that work against being shot repeatedly by the same thing. Or teleport past. If you don't. they're an impassable obstacle that will shred anyone trying to get close. Siege warfare or reasonable infiltration is better than a solution of "negate it or go on foot over a minimum of 50 miles".

Infiltration is still possible with the current system. Heck, it'll be more once I finish updating the arsenal anti-radars.

Anyway yes, in mecha shows you don't take conquer fortifications by carefully calculating vectors of advance, you charge in guns blazing and either are tough/dodgy/numerous enough to survive the turrets or you end a pile of scrap (or, again, get some super weapon to nuke it from even further range, Ace Pilot has Ambush to snipe stuff at unlimited range starting at 11th level and everything).

Most of the genre doesn't totally abandon common sense and adopt "the best idea is to run at the strongest point". Some shows do, but that isn't enough to remove any concept of tactics entirely.

Quote
Quote
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There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

If you cast Scry to find the position of someone behind a wall and cast True Strike, can you hit them behind the wall? I believe you can't.

Speaking of which, the turrets are objects, so they also block line of effect. So mechas that aren't too big can indeed take cover on their dead zones from other turrets. There's your tactical advance.

Super anti-stealth because turrets are immobile objects and thus can't take feats or items or whatnot and there's just too many stealth abilities around.

Also you were previously claiming that the current turret range is overcomplicating it. Yet you now admit your proposed system demands extra time and effort for drawing circles. You just admitted your system is the one that's actually more complicated.

Well, the turrets are ranged weapons that don't obey normal ranged rules and automatically ignore being hidden (lovely, a level 4 turret can detect a level 20 with god knows how many points in move silently and hide) and instantly detect things that they don't have LoE to, so why would I ever assume that LoE applies to their own firing? But now that LoE does apply to their ability to fire things, they're operating on special rules and I still have to draw lines all over the map to work out where each turret can't fire anyway.

So just sticking to the normal ranged rules and giving them a spot score/see invisibility is simpler after all. It's not like there aren't already modifiers for different sizes... <_<
My system:
1-Are they inside the base area?
2-Is there a valid LoE for each turret?
3-DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

Your system:
1-Check if they're in range of the turrets.
2-Still need to check LoE for each turret.
3-Roll listen for the turrets.
4-Roll spot  against hide for each turret.
5-Roll spot against disguise for each turret.
6-DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

That's literally double the calculations involded. Assuming there's the same number of turrets in each scenario. But while one system caps at 20 turrets at 20th level, the other system can have hundreds of turrets in range if you cheese the areas of the bases.
[/quote]

Only if you're calculating it on the spot. If you worked it out in advance, which I would seriously hope you WOULD for both situations given that we're going from 30' squares to plotting at least 100 miles a side, then the steps are more like:

0) Roll disguise once if you can pretend to be the enemy.
1) Are they inside any targeted area (you need to compare for both systems anyway because of LoE, and having limited range actually makes it simpler with more varied terrain)
1A) Roll spot for turrets (group/individually, however) with turrets not auto-trumping anything but 1-point cheap mecha defences.
2) Fire

The only addition are any spot checks. Spot checks that mean that if you for some reason have a level 20 base, you can't defeat its defences as first level characters by being unarmoured and you can have a deadly boss lair you can't even get close to from the start. Modifiers work both ways.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #932 on: March 27, 2017, 01:48:08 AM »
Most of the genre doesn't totally abandon common sense and adopt "the best idea is to run at the strongest point". Some shows do, but that isn't enough to remove any concept of tactics entirely.
Examples? Because even Gundam pilots often charge straight ahead when it comes to assaulting enemy fortresses.

McGillis just got killed running at the strongest point, true, but only when the other named dude with a mecha specifically built to counter him intercepted.

Only if you're calculating it on the spot. If you worked it out in advance, which I would seriously hope you WOULD for both situations given that we're going from 30' squares to plotting at least 100 miles a side, then the steps are more like:

0) Roll disguise once if you can pretend to be the enemy.
1) Are they inside any targeted area (you need to compare for both systems anyway because of LoE, and having limited range actually makes it simpler with more varied terrain)
1A) Roll spot for turrets (group/individually, however) with turrets not auto-trumping anything but 1-point cheap mecha defences.
2) Fire

The only addition are any spot checks. Spot checks that mean that if you for some reason have a level 20 base, you can't defeat its defences as first level characters by being unarmoured and you can have a deadly boss lair you can't even get close to from the start. Modifiers work both ways.
That reminds me, with your system you also need to check for LoS. So just drop some fog or wait for a foggy day, add a Silence spell and done. Could be dragging a piece of cardboard. Could be illusions. I don't want to have to deal with illusions bullshit or cheap parlor tricks.

Of course if you build nothing but turrets and leave zero guards, you deserve to be defeated by the unarmoured 1st level dudes.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 01:50:46 AM by oslecamo »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #933 on: March 27, 2017, 02:11:57 AM »
Looks like the turret discussion has really taken off, and that's a pun because the curving x-ray bullets exceed mach 142.

Anyway, is Ayrk every going to speak?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #934 on: March 27, 2017, 10:21:04 AM »
Most of the genre doesn't totally abandon common sense and adopt "the best idea is to run at the strongest point". Some shows do, but that isn't enough to remove any concept of tactics entirely.
Examples? Because even Gundam pilots often charge straight ahead when it comes to assaulting enemy fortresses.

McGillis just got killed running at the strongest point, true, but only when the other named dude with a mecha specifically built to counter him intercepted.

Code Geass? And in a way, pretty much the finale of Gunbuster, given the plan there wasn't 'smash the defences to pieces' but 'get inside for a few seconds'.

Quote
Only if you're calculating it on the spot. If you worked it out in advance, which I would seriously hope you WOULD for both situations given that we're going from 30' squares to plotting at least 100 miles a side, then the steps are more like:

0) Roll disguise once if you can pretend to be the enemy.
1) Are they inside any targeted area (you need to compare for both systems anyway because of LoE, and having limited range actually makes it simpler with more varied terrain)
1A) Roll spot for turrets (group/individually, however) with turrets not auto-trumping anything but 1-point cheap mecha defences.
2) Fire

The only addition are any spot checks. Spot checks that mean that if you for some reason have a level 20 base, you can't defeat its defences as first level characters by being unarmoured and you can have a deadly boss lair you can't even get close to from the start. Modifiers work both ways.
That reminds me, with your system you also need to check for LoS. So just drop some fog or wait for a foggy day, add a Silence spell and done. Could be dragging a piece of cardboard. Could be illusions. I don't want to have to deal with illusions bullshit or cheap parlor tricks.

Of course if you build nothing but turrets and leave zero guards, you deserve to be defeated by the unarmoured 1st level dudes.

[/quote]

You're talking about a scale of a hundred miles a side. No spell is going to cover all of that area and the natural weather isn't likely to be a blanket of fog so problematic. Even Control Weather can't do more than create a tiny area of cover (assuming you get the casting done before being shot).

The cheap parlour tricks still work, though. I just need to have a fake illusion in front of me.

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #935 on: March 27, 2017, 10:57:52 AM »
Code Geass? And in a way, pretty much the finale of Gunbuster, given the plan there wasn't 'smash the defences to pieces' but 'get inside for a few seconds'.
Lelouch was also purposely expending his troops for the coming military disarmament so really Code Geass doesn't count anyway.

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #936 on: March 29, 2017, 10:34:35 PM »
Anyway, is Ayrk every going to speak?
Not until you:
-Stop crippling your character by equipping them with horse shoes which block both your spellcasting and piloting. Also this isn't a brony campaign.
-Further stop crippling your character by taking your cohort's wealth in a ring (whose exact source would be appreciated BTW) which as pointed out multiple times in OOC will make them rebel against you.
-Stop having [Classified] items in your character sheet.
-Stop spamming the srw subforums with your 40k/bioshock homebrew. You already have your own thread for that on the normal homebrew forums. You can request your own subforum.

None of the above are up for negotiation as I simply don't have the time for it. Further derailing means I'm kicking you out of my campaigns.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #937 on: March 30, 2017, 02:21:44 AM »
Clicked your link, seems we were discussion how the shoes don't block spellcasting and I was about to reply how the shoes don't actually turn you into a Nightmare, or use Alternate Form or Polymorph rules, or even say you lose your Racial Features and Dragons already have an exception since their technically bipedal and unable to grasp weapons (which is also why the mech wields the vistburn) but it appears things got buried. I'm not sure why a sentient mech with a copy of the pilot's brain needs controls either but hey w/e, easy enough fix when I get around to it.

Metamagic Storm has been on Bahamut's sheet since level 12 and Searing Spell was either there then to or adjusted when lv13 was gained. Likewise, it's pretty obvious given the superscript notation and the fact I literally pointed out to you in PMs back when I was thinking of using a dozen Steel Knifes for the fire damage and your only comment was it gets 1/2 str scale. And when I was writing the historic notes that we were discussing in PMs, certain things were getting a new flavor spin. As everyone can see on Saber's sheet, where the same pseudo-tag wraps knowledge for players but not characters, and the damage section where the Searing Spell section of that damage that bypasses fire immunity got the cool name of "darkfire". With the magical weave being noted as deteriorating some of the fluff of the location isn't the most appropriate. Something like Grants Tempest sounded cooler but I haven't really dug into the wiki all that much and you started using PH's spells in Arcane Pilot so idk is that name would work anyway. But eh it's all fluff, the mechanics are exactly the same ones that have been in use for years nor can I really expect anyone to consider them secretive.

Likewise in PMs you were expressly told what Saber was going to be for, and how her Prestige Bard level was meant to create a more open spell resource and you told me that plan was fine. You were even expressly asked about and OK'ed that Bahamut was going to cast Forceward & Greater Blink to pass to his Familiar using Share Spells followed by their mech's channeling them up thus she could pilot a fully buffed mech. And you OK'ed all of this and even found the idea interesting and wanted to see how it'd go. The Ring of Theurgy out of Complete Arcane on page 145 (or so) is how the spells were getting passed back and forth which became highly important when you illogically nerfed mechs to object-only because they could no longer be the target of several buffs and I subsequently patched around it following your rule changes as I become aware of them. And as noted in the OOC thread, both characters make active use of it and they both paid for it. Saber can cast Elation into it and Bahamut can pull it out using any 2nd level Slot, then he can cast spontaneously cast any Spell he knows into it and Saber can pull it out without having to prepare it. All though I think she has to directly leave a slot open, I'd have to check.

And adding to this, you are also unfairly pushing a deadline on me. Yes I started asking questions back when you said we could level up and yes I already started changing things, and yes I still consider it being worked on (even added your pure crafting per your limitations when it came up in here). But no one else has even started posting their lv14 changes, why does the entirety of Bahamut's 14th level need to be finalized to continue forward if no one else has to? Likewise as my interested moved off Bahamut you've had over a month to ask me to finish it anyway and polity ask for changes.

I think, more than anything, you're just inventing those to issue an ultimatum as the cost of sounding like you can't remember pretty much anything you've ruled on, discussed, or said before. But the gist of the little squall seems to be based around how you feel I should not allowed to discuss numeric averages and build possibilities of SRW content with the only people on the forum that use SRW content and I feel otherwise because the SRW subforum is exactly where SRW discussions should go in the first place. And you're threatening game removal as a means of pushing your end which is pretty childish. Not to mention how it's pretty mixed signels, Ckirk wanted to include it in the custom wiki he's setting up and you said it was fine. Did you just ban SRW wiki discussion in the SRW general discussion thread? And to really go into things here the post you're complaining about is simultaneously the same one that let Ckirk know I wiped a huge chunk of text out of the thread you're complaining about so I didn't have to dual update. If he wants to include it, as you've allowed, he needs to be sure to check the other thread in the main homebrew section for updates which is now linked to, multiple times, by the post in SRW as a means to push it's D&D-sided discussion out anyway. I'm literally meeting you well over halfway here. But as your totalitarian statement says, it's not enough. Congrats on being an even bigger dick than I've ever been. I can move to PMs with him, but as the content moves to a anyone-can-edit-and-add wiki in a community that encourages building off other people's homebrew you're just going to have to accept that you're not going to lord control over anyone else that comes along.

Edit - Minor typos fixes, not entirely sure how to break the paragraphs up better through.



1. Extracted the shoes out, the 32k saved was also enough to full pay for the ring and brought the Cohort a Minor Schema of Greater Blink, the Cohort's new ten thousand gold will be spent on something else when I find it.
2. Bahamut does not plan on rebelling against Sabar for using his items, also the Ring does require open Slots so Saber's preparation adjusted accordingly.
3. Changed Metamagic Storm CoolNameHere so you can't complain about it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 04:57:52 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #938 on: April 07, 2017, 06:38:05 AM »
To avoid some future confusions.

Not to mention how it's pretty mixed signels, Ckirk wanted to include it in the custom wiki he's setting up and you said it was fine. Did you just ban SRW wiki discussion in the SRW general discussion thread?

Yes, just like Forgotten Realms or Shadowrun or Exalted or Twilight are not topics to be discussed there.

One is Ckirk's wiki, and another is my subforum. Ckirk puts what he wants in his wiki, and I put what I want in my subforum. It just happens that Ckirk asked us permission to copy our material there and I gave it since it would be hypocrite from me to deny since I blatantly take stuff from all over the net all the time to make my homebrew. But as far as I'm concerned that's where my care for said wiki ends. I'm not checking how it's going let alone editing anything there and when I want to remember SRW stuff I go to my subforum. I also expect players here to also check the subforum to update their characters, not the wiki that's under construction and is free to take any liberties they want there. If it happens that people start spamming new material there and want to discuss it, that's a matter for their own threads or the wiki itself, not my subforum.

Of course if you're really so worried about saving work for Ckirk, you could just create a changelog in your own thread instead of making him dig through the general discussion thread.

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #939 on: April 07, 2017, 11:04:15 AM »
Osle, not sure what roll, if any, would apply here. Hugo's basically pulling rank as an Intelligence agent. It's a jurisdiction issue.

Essentially, even if they have an outstanding arrest against them, declaring them as assets to an investigation from an intelligence agency should make them free to go. Unless they have the equivalent of federal agents on their tail, but even then it becomes a problem for higher-ups, not Hugo.

Best I can think of is probably a level roll.
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