An official Lord of the Rings setting to be published for D&D 5E

[Libertad]

It's a team-up by Sophisticated Games and Cubicle 7, the latter of whom are working on The One Ring RPG.

All I have to say is...

No.

Actually I have more to say than that. I get that deriving inspiration from Lord of the Rings was a big thing D&D did, even if Gary Gygax denied this to his grave. I get how aspects of its lore are borrowed. But truthfully I feel that the subculture's too wedded to Tolkien's work, trying too hard to ape their adventures, settings, and sessions on it.

The thing is, the Lord of the Rings has a specific design which doesn't translate very well into most campaigns. There's only 6 actual magic-users in all of Middle-Earth, and even the marveled elven artifacts aren't viewed as magic by their people. The Hobbit and the trilogy have been rather down to earth in their scale of power, and I notice from 5E's spell list that a lot of the world-shaking magic is still present. You still have goblins, intelligent spiders, and a few top-tier creatures like Smaug and the balrog, but the latter tends to be unique creatures.

Also, the One Ring's massive power is easily replicated by a level 2 spell with no hint of corruption.

I guess what I'm saying is...why make a 5E Middle-Earth game when there's already a serviceable RPG for it?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

hmm, could work anyway, depending on how wedded
to sacred cows they've done it.  I'll have to check it out


btw ... source for the quip that Gandalf was a 5th level Magic-User.
It goes way back, like Dragon # 5 way back.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2201&start=0

[oslecamo]

The thing is, the Lord of the Rings has a specific design which doesn't translate very well into most campaigns. There's only 6 actual magic-users in all of Middle-Earth, and even the marveled elven artifacts aren't viewed as magic by their people.

That's because Tolkien elves are super superior and for them low level magic items are common stuff.

But as they say, a rose by any other name smells just the same. The elves craft ropes that hurt evil just by touch, they trap stars inside bottles, super cloaks of hiding and whatnot.

And there are plenty of magic users besides Gandalf and his wizard buddies:
-Aragorn has super healing abilities.
-Tom Bombadill.
-The ringwraiths.
-The treants and their super growth potions and tree animation and whatnot.
-Whoever crafted all the glowing blades the party collects.
-Arguably the whole elven race besides Legolas.

The Hobbit and the trilogy have been rather down to earth in their scale of power, and I notice from 5E's spell list that a lot of the world-shaking magic is still present. You still have goblins, intelligent spiders, and a few top-tier creatures like Smaug and the balrog, but the latter tends to be unique creatures.

There are multiples of dragons and balrogs in the Lotr setting, it's just that they're lurking in quite hidden places.

You don't see Balors/Pit Fiends just hanging around in the wilderness in regular D&D, do you? Would be kinda hard to have a typical D&D setting if there are hordes of super infernals in every city, forest and road. They usually like lurking in dungeons. That's half the name of D&D.

Also, the One Ring's massive power is easily replicated by a level 2 spell with no hint of corruption.

First, the ring grants improved invisibility, not just basic invisibility.

Second, that's just the minor power of the ring. It's pointed out multiple times across the books (and even some times in the movies) that in the hands of someone actually competent, the ring would unlock much more powerful abilities and allow them to conquer Middle Earth (Gandalf's and Galadriel must resist its temptation after all).

I guess what I'm saying is...why make a 5E Middle-Earth game when there's already a serviceable RPG for it?

Because collecting magic items (even if they're called by other name) and fighting goblins/giant demons/undead and saving the world never gets old.

[SorO_Lost]

Lies!

Hithlain only causes minor burns to evil creatures and Elves use it to make rope, among other things. It's a property of the material, not the Elves. A rose by another name indeed about the "star in a bottle", I doubt a fluid filled bottle that works worse than a flashlight contains a star, no one died from being near it for one of a dozen ways a shrunken star next to you can do and the film overplays the cloak's ability to hide you to full on shape shifting (sort of like how it overplays Gandalf's fight).

Rest of it is pretty much the confusion of the supernatural for spellcasters. Like both the Elven and Dwarven races are part of the harmony of creation, anything they forge directly opposed the darkness and was imbued with some sort of supernatural effect, like the dragon helm basically giving a deflection bonus to AC. And it's just the same with the Ringwraiths, they never display any actual magic and are harmed by manmade steel blades, what they have is a spooky scream and long lifespan which is a known effect of the One Ring's power. And while the One Ring is claimed to be a gateway to power, but the only thing it ever did was turn people invisible, except everyone that mattered could see you anyway. The rest is just myth and mystery. Heck, don't forget Saruman was rendered completely powerless one his magical staff was broken, whom ever said the Maiar them selves could even cast a spell?

And Tom Bombadill is essentially the total opposite of magic. He totally immune to the effects of the One Ring, no mind control no invisibility, nothing. Frodo put the ring on in front of him to prove it was magical and Tom could still see him. To break out a Sword of Truth reference, Tom is pristinely ungifted. The exact opposite of magical and totally immune to it.

[Amechra]

Tom Bombadil doesn't count, since he's totally Oromë, and therefore is literally one of the Valar.

Or, at least, that's my interpretation of that passage in the Silmarillion.

 

(Yeah, I know, no one agrees with me on this one, but it does make a certain amount of perverse sense.)

[Maelphaxerazz]

Why make a D&D Middle Earth game? The obvious answer is that Middle Earth is the most famous fantasy setting and D&D is the most famous fantasy game. I.e.: it will make money.

Now, as for how low-magic Middle Earth is. You are absolutely right, middle-earth is nothing like D&D in that regard! However, Wizards of the Coast does not have to make an accurate representation of the setting. Apply a liberal layer of artistic license, and voila! A sourcebook with some middle-earth maps and some movie-inspired illustrations around what is otherwise normal D&D rules. The only thing shocking about it is that they didn't do it every edition.

So relax, and approach it as a generic fantasy expansion. It might have something fun and new in it for your own D&D campaigns. I doubt that people playing this will worry overmuch about whether their magic-user is more powerful than Gandalf.

[Samwise]

Hithlain only causes minor burns to evil creatures and Elves use it to make rope, among other things. It's a property of the material, not the Elves.

How can material distinguish between morals without magic?
How can the elves employ it properly without insight?

A rose by another name indeed about the "star in a bottle", I doubt a fluid filled bottle that works worse than a flashlight contains a star, no one died from being near it for one of a dozen ways a shrunken star next to you can do

It contains the light of a star.
How can you separate the light of a single star from all the rest without magic?
Even as "just a flashlight" it still requires magic to project said light.

and the film overplays the cloak's ability to hide you to full on shape shifting (sort of like how it overplays Gandalf's fight).

The film overplays a lot, but that doesn't change the cloaks has special concealment abilities.

As for Gandalf's fight, he survived falling to the bottom then chased the balrog to the top of the mountain. That's pretty magical in and of itself.

Rest of it is pretty much the confusion of the supernatural for spellcasters. Like both the Elven and Dwarven races are part of the harmony of creation, anything they forge directly opposed the darkness and was imbued with some sort of supernatural effect, like the dragon helm basically giving a deflection bonus to AC.

Supernatural effects are invoked by magic.

And it's just the same with the Ringwraiths, they never display any actual magic and are harmed by manmade steel blades, what they have is a spooky scream and long lifespan which is a known effect of the One Ring's power.

They were harmed by blades wielded by destined creatures. The destiny itself is magical.
Their scream/"breath" carried a plague which required magical healing, and they wielded magically accursed blades.

And while the One Ring is claimed to be a gateway to power, but the only thing it ever did was turn people invisible, except everyone that mattered could see you anyway. The rest is just myth and mystery.

Gateway meaning you needed innate power to unlock its powers.

Heck, don't forget Saruman was rendered completely powerless one his magical staff was broken, whom ever said the Maiar them selves could even cast a spell?

His staff was a symbol. In some respect like the One Ring, both were Item Familiars, and we all know how screwed you are when those get sundered by a jerk DM.

And Tom Bombadill is essentially the total opposite of magic. He totally immune to the effects of the One Ring, no mind control no invisibility, nothing. Frodo put the ring on in front of him to prove it was magical and Tom could still see him. To break out a Sword of Truth reference, Tom is pristinely ungifted. The exact opposite of magical and totally immune to it.

Tom Bombadil is so innately magical he is opaque in regards to other magical effects, like the psionic option.

[SorO_Lost]

Sam's post hurts the brain. >.<
Why does brass murder germs but not kill us without magic? ZOMG HERSAY!
Vial containing light not a glowstick?  IT HAS THE POWER OF A SUN DARNNIT!
Camouflage cloaks? NO THEY ARE FREAKIN MAGIC!!!1!!
And so on, destiny is magic and Werewolves are 19th level Sorcerer/Favored Souls because supernatural = spellcaster. 

I hate LotR fans so badly. 

[oslecamo]

Cloak of elvenkind is a classic magic item. Cloaks of cakouphlage are not.

Tom bombadil has great saves and SR, plus teleportation to pop up when you sing his song.

The rope that hurts people based on their alignment could also untie itself on its own.
Similarly the star in a bottle could blind evil sentries but not the good hobbits.

The ring wraiths were immune to normal weapons in the book, it took magic blades to hurt them. They are basically the basis of DR/magic.

[Samwise]

Sam's post hurts the brain. >.<
Why does brass murder germs but not kill us without magic? ZOMG HERSAY!

Germs don't have an alignment.

Vial containing light not a glowstick?  IT HAS THE POWER OF A SUN DARNNIT!

No, it emits light.
That suns also emit light does not make the light from a glowstick the specific reflection of light from a particular sun.

Camouflage cloaks? NO THEY ARE FREAKIN MAGIC!!!1!!

Camouflage that alters itself on an ongoing basis is pretty impressive.

And so on, destiny is magic and Werewolves are 19th level Sorcerer/Favored Souls because supernatural = spellcaster. 

No, but werewolves and 19th level sorcerers/favored souls both have supernatural attributes.

Oh, and most of your examples are conflations of Foglio's Corollary to Clarke's Law with an actual demonstration of alternative interpretation.

I hate LotR fans so badly. 

That's okay, I love heathen Science cultists. 

[Solo]

Camouflage that alters itself on an ongoing basis is pretty impressive.

Please.

[SorO_Lost]

@Ols, Cloak of Elvenkind is a D&D item, wrong universe
Tom doesn't have a high Save or SR, he is literally immune to the One Ring's powers to a point even Gandalf confirms it. Elrond even considered him as a ring bearer but Tom, per a letter predating LotR is a manifestation of the land it's self, would do a terrible job at it. According to Gandalf Tom could not understand the important of the ring and would have probably thrown it aside and Tom has no way of handling any men that Sauron would send his way if they decided to just try hiding it.

Mindful I'm not saying LotR is utterly devoid of magic only that the tone of magic stems from the perceptions of the characters. Like the rope untying it's self would be a magical effect but reacting the skin of an organism doesn't mean it has anything remotely to do with magic. Think of it like silver hurts wearwolves, sticks in the shape of a cross hurt vampires, sunlight kills bacteria, carbon monoxide is more deadly to canaries, and radiation can apparently kill everything but cockroaches. The very little harm it did (all golem did was complain it burns) would be more accurately described as the inherent properties of the material Hithlain interacting with the discordant evil creatures. Sort of like how you can blind a human whose eyes are adjusted to the dark with a flashlight you could blind a sees-even-better-in-dark Orc with a glowstick.

In fact here straight from the mouth of Galadriel her self over the pool of Frodo's nightmares.

"And you?" she said, turning to Sam. "For this is what you folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word for the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?"

To Galadriel, "magic" is a lesser-race word used to describe lies and to Sam's uneducated perceptions of how the pool works.

Some of these effects could be called supernatural but for the most part they are really just materials and items the elves know how to harness. Like Gandalf's fireworks create explosions and to the Hobbits they would perceive them as sorcerery when all it's really just black powder and metal dust. Science vs magic so to speak.

But back to the Nazgul and your comment about them.

The ring wraiths were immune to normal weapons in the book, it took magic blades to hurt them. They are basically the basis of DR/magic.

The lore is nonmagical blade shatter after striking a Nazgul and both Meriadoc Brandybuck's and Eowyn's blades shattered which both confirms they were not magical and a none magical weapon is capable of killing them. Also water can harm them too which cycles back to Hithlain's ability to harm discordant creatures not being a magical effect.

Now you'll notice I use the term discordant a lot. Elves and Dwarves are part of the song of creation whereas Melkor's associated underlings are part of the discordance. Only Humans & Hobbits are free and able to determine their own fates and this is particulaly important because magic is dwindling to nothing by the 3rd age. The only reason it's still around is because of the rings and you can learn more about it from this video and it's part one. Gandalf is one of the very few real spellcasters in the world and he is basically the equivalent of an angel and still needed his staff in order to do anything supernaturally or magically related. Like in the film Arwen summoned the flood but in reality Elrond and Gandolf did it to protect Frodo & Glorfindel (Arwen wasn't even there) and both of them are ring bearers.

That's okay, I love heathen Science cultists. 

fyi, watch this.

[Samwise]

Here, straight from the mouth of Galadriel her self over the pool of Frodo's nightmares.

"And you?" she said, turning to Sam. "For this is what you folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word for the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?"

To Galadriel, "magic" is a lesser-race word used to describe lies and to Sam's uneducated perceptions of how the pool works.

Ummm . . . no; that is not what Galadriel is saying.
She says "they seem to use the same word", not that it is the word used for lies.
More likely it is that Galadriel wishes to distinguish the magic used by Morgoth and Sauron - corruption, from the magic used by the Valar, Maia, and Elves - construction.

No, nonmagical blades brake after striking them. Meriadoc Brandybuck's and Eowyn's blades both shattered after striking the Witchking proving they were none-magical and how the Nazgul could be killed by mundane means.

The blades broke and dissolved.
And you are still ignoring that the Lord of the Nazgul was fated and could be slain by "no man", thus Eowyn the woman and Meriadoc the hobbit.

fyi, watch this.

If Sauron is an SJW, that proves his innate and eternal evil.

[SorO_Lost]

She says "they seem to use the same word", not that it is the word used for lies.

You can read "For this is what you folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word for the deceits of the Enemy." and as be stubborn it claim it doesn't mean lying, which is a synonym of deceit. And then move from one retarded language debate into another over what "no man" means which carries with it the unprovable asserting that the Nazgul are immune to pretty much anything and should only fear weapons wielded by none-male humans. Except five of them were so terrified of a male human carrying fire they ran away from a fight they were winning. 

Also, venerability to any none male human means Gandalf could have murdered them. Hell, Legolas could have hamstringed one like Meriadoc did from a thousand paces out. Congratulations on turning them into a Saturday morning cartoon villain that strikes fear into absolutely no one. Got a Nazgul problem? Order your Nazgul deterrent now for total protection, call 1-800-it'sjustadwarforgirlorboythatlithisarrowtiponfire. Not to much how incredible demeaning that is, Eowyn goes from being the headstrong gender role defying women who beat the unbeatable man with an amazing quip following victory to nothing more than an "all well you were only successful because of your gender." like some sort of supremacist insult. Hell even Meriadoc's arc to become the resolved to fight heroic hobbit gets tossed to the side in favor of claiming that the he only landed his lucky shot and harmed the Witchking is because short people are not considered real men just in case you haven't insulted enough people with such a terrible claim yet. It's like the After Hours video only barely touched on the main concept of intolerance that plagues the fan base.

[Samwise]

You can read "For this is what you folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word for the deceits of the Enemy." and as be stubborn it claim it doesn't mean lying, which is a synonym of deceit.

And you can read "For this is what you folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word for the deceits of the Enemy."
and be stubborn as to claim it means the word "magic" is a synonym for "lying", when that is clearly not what is being said.

And then move from one retarded language debate into another over what "no man" means which carries with it the unprovable asserting that the Nazgul are immune to pretty much anything and should only fear weapons wielded by none-male humans. Except five of them were so terrified of a male human carrying fire they ran away from a fight they were winning. 

Seriously?
Really, seriously?

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/%C3%89owyn

During the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, she fought in Théoden's escort; when he and his company were attacked by the Witch-king of Angmar, lord of the Nazgûl, she and Merry were the only riders who did not flee. As Théoden lay mortally wounded, she challenged the Witch-King, who boasted that "no living man may hinder me." In answer, she removed her helmet, exposing her long blond hair, and declared, "No living man am I! You look upon a woman! Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. Begone if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him!"[3]

In a rage, the Witch-King attacked her, but she cleaved the head off his Fell Beast. The Witch-King shattered her shield with a blow of his mace, breaking her arm, but stumbled when Merry stabbed his leg from behind with a Barrow-blade of Westernesse make. Éowyn stabbed her sword through the Witch-King's head, killing him,[3] and thus fulfilling Glorfindel's prophecy a thousand years earlier at the Battle of Fornost that "not by the hand of man" would the Witch-King fall.[6]


Your total ignorance of not merely LOTR lore, but the explicit text, is evidence only of your complete and utter failure to RTFM, and not some peculiar projection of mine.

As for your musings as to whether Legolas could have wandered up and done the Lord of the Nazgul in:

http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Éowyn

Just as MacDuff disconcerted Macbeth by revealing he was not "of woman born", Lady Éowyn found the loophole in the 1,000-year-old prophecy by Glorfindel, fulfilling that the Witch-king would not be slain by a man. However, the Witch-king actually recited the prophecy incorrectly: he said that "no living man may hinder me," though the prophecy actually said that "not by the hand of man will he fall."[13] Glorfindel's prophesy, unlike his own version, implies that the Witch-king will not fall to a man. In Tolkien's writing, man and woman applies simply to the gender of any Middle-earth race. Only when he capitalized Man did it denote the race of Men. The Witch-king may not have realized that the prophecy meant only a male, thus, his moment of doubt and hesitation when he faced Éowyn.[1]


Maybe.
Why didn't Glorfindel, or some other random elf, just do the deed during the 1,000 years from giving the prophecy to fulfilling?
Ask Tolkien.

As for whether this somehow invalidates what Eowyn did, perhaps for you, but once again, RTFM, and consider what actually happened to her - you know, being healed by Aragorn, marrying Faramir, being covered in glory, all that stuff - apparently not for Tolkien.


Oh, and I should note:
That applies to one particular Nazgul, the "Lord of the Nazgul".
The other Nazgul were not bound by that prophecy, and could theoretically be slain by anyone.
Of course none of them were, which suggests their raw power, derived of course from the One Ring and their individual rings, plus of course their own innate knowledge of magic, but that is different from being under a doom.
And, related to that, Aragorn was not "just" an ordinary male human. He was the last scion of the royal house of the Dunedain of the North, which meant he qualified as half-elven (Elrond was actually his uncle around 50 times removed or thereabouts) (and which meant he was descended from a Maia), said status manifesting in everything from his age (he was 90 at the time of the events in LOTR), to his "healing hands" with Frodo, Faramir, Eowyn, and Meriadoc (plus unnamed ordinary people afflicted by the Nazgul "breath"), to his ability to wrest control of the palantir (totes not magical I'm sure) from Sauron in mental battle. His rampaging among the "ordinary" Nazgul was a major threat to them.

[Amechra]

fyi, watch this.

Wait, you're trying to use shitty clickbait videos to support your argument? Really?

You do realize that the entire purpose of those videos (and their content) is to create arguments, therefore inducing more people to click on the video, thus artificially inflating the creators number of watchers past what they'd have if they actually tried to produce something that wasn't the intellectual equivalent of garbage... right?

Also, attempting to impose modern views and values on a book written over 50 years ago is... pointless, to say the least.


Weighing in on the wah wah magic is/is not lies "argument"... Galadriel is right ancient and (vaguely) remembers a time period where "magic" was all over the fucking place. Sam's comment is like going up to an accountant from the 50s and calling both a slide rule and an addiator "math machines".

Or the classic example of going up to someone really educated in a subject and displaying such naivete that they just sort of sigh and accept that they're going to have to explain things in your (delightfully yokel-like) terms.

[SorO_Lost]

Wait, you're trying to use shitty clickbait videos to support your argument? Really?

Hey I happen to like their After Hours series

And I don't think their purpose is to create arguments any more than more than I think Endarire trolls the board. Actually less so since they discuss amongst them selves and come to a climax rather than then purposely prodding the fan base with open ended questions. What I would like through is new topics rather than them just using copypasta from recycled fan theories, but then again we are discussing Cracked here.

@Sam, great job on going to the wiki and learning that the whole no man thing was a lie, magic! Of course, Glorfindel's name should have been clickable and you would have seen no notation of him having any kind of future sight beyond his claim, "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." happening to later be right. And it should be noted that Glorfindel was an elf promoted to Maiar levels at the time and leading an elven side of an elven/human army, so with racial exception allowed any of them could have killed him if you took the text literately with the mind of a four year old. It also cycles back around to how Maiar suck in battle or how LotR's universe's in terms of magical power is pretty pathetic compared to other fantasy worlds. And yet you act like you've made some kind of great exception to what I've said before. 

I have a prediction that you can argue is a prophecy indicative of my supreme magical powers later. I see my self simply not caring to reply to you relatively soon in this discussion.

[Samwise]

@Sam, great job on going to the wiki and learning that the whole no man thing was a lie, magic!

I didn't need to go to the wiki to learn anything.
I went there so I could link it for you since you seem determined to argue anything anyone says as being merely their mistaken opinion, rather that reports of the actual text, commentary from Tolkien, and discussion from within the community.

Of course, Glorfindel's name should have been clickable and you would have seen no notation of him having any kind of future sight beyond his claim, "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." happening to later be right. And it should be noted that Glorfindel was an elf promoted to Maiar levels at the time and leading an elven side of an elven/human army, so with racial exception allowed any of them could have killed him if you took the text literately with the mind of a four year old. It also cycles back around to how Maiar suck in battle or how LotR's universe's in terms of magical power is pretty pathetic compared to other fantasy worlds. And yet you act like you've made some kind of great exception to what I've said before. 

Aside from not recalling it was Glorfindel specifically, once again, I already knew that.
Except of course for your misperception of Maiar sucking in battle. They don't. They are simply restrained to permit the peoples of Middle Earth to exercise free will according to the direction of Eru Illuvatar, and as such don't actively participate in battle except in unusual circumstances.

So once again, your failure of LOTR Lore betrays you into foolish babblings that you think are oh-so-clever but just aren't.

[phaedrusxy]

Arguing about whether something is "magic" is pointless, and only really meaningful within the context of a rules framework where such distinctions are as rigid as D&D. For as Arthur C. Clarke famously said "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

In fact, perhaps D&D would be a better game if we got rid of the entire idea of there being a separation between the magical and the mundane (which would return us to something more like the LotR setting). It wouldn't be as difficult as it first might appear. Just dump Detect Magic, Antimagic Field, and dead magic zones and you've already gone most of the way mechanically. (Of course the bigger problem would be changing the way long-term players think of the game...).

[Samwise]

Arguing about whether something is "magic" is pointless, and only really meaningful within the context of a rules framework where such distinctions are as rigid as D&D. For as Arthur C. Clarke famously said "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

In fact, perhaps D&D would be a better game if we got rid of the entire idea of there being a separation between the magical and the mundane (which would return us to something more like the LotR setting). It wouldn't be as difficult as it first might appear. Just dump Detect Magic, Antimagic Field, and dead magic zones and you've already gone most of the way mechanically. (Of course the bigger problem would be changing the way long-term players think of the game...).

That's Foglio's Corollary on Clarke's Law:
Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

(Phil Foglio, in an old Phil and Dixie comic in Dragon Magazine.)