Author Topic: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom  (Read 168589 times)

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #900 on: March 23, 2017, 05:38:37 AM »
I think of it as more 10,000 square miles is just the land grab and the physical base's building is a lot smaller.

Yanno, like how real world military bases are not build smack dab in the middle of a packed city but out in the middle of nowhere where they can adjudicate themselves having absolutely nothing else nearby that can be used to snoop on the base. It makes security easier when your base is surrounded by nothing but empty space so nobody is coming up on that unannounced. Or down in the middle of a heavy jungle that naturally hides the base from far-spying eyes and/or satellites. If nobody knows it's there, nobody'll know when the people guarding the base just up and murder people for getting to close and publicly chalk it up to "got lost and probably eaten by wild animals".

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #901 on: March 23, 2017, 01:02:24 PM »
I think of it as more 10,000 square miles is just the land grab and the physical base's building is a lot smaller.

Yanno, like how real world military bases are not build smack dab in the middle of a packed city but out in the middle of nowhere where they can adjudicate themselves having absolutely nothing else nearby that can be used to snoop on the base. It makes security easier when your base is surrounded by nothing but empty space so nobody is coming up on that unannounced. Or down in the middle of a heavy jungle that naturally hides the base from far-spying eyes and/or satellites. If nobody knows it's there, nobody'll know when the people guarding the base just up and murder people for getting to close and publicly chalk it up to "got lost and probably eaten by wild animals".

Now that depends what the purpose of the base is.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #902 on: March 23, 2017, 02:57:45 PM »
No it doesn't  :P Because everyone in dnd that has a base of operations is paranoid about this shit~

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #903 on: March 23, 2017, 03:48:28 PM »
If I had gone any lower now I would have to deal with suggestions of just cramming bases inside their character's pockets or  someone wanting to use bases as ammo for weapons
I like the idea but honestly who cares? With a capped none-Epic Leadership Score of 25 you can only have four turrets for 8d12*4, that's 208 damage but totally useless if the target is within 300mu. Four 4th level Super Pilots can use Growth, Extra, Tank Mode, and Mighty x3 for 1d10+1d6+6+DexMod*3*4 for 180+ damage, if they have 16 Dex they deal more and they can most of the weapon addons as well. But unlike the turrets they can fire at anyone near by and you know, punch people in the face, split into dozens of clones, hell they could even use Maneuvers.

The main deal is the 10,000 square miles through 300mu range. That's 8,799,700mu of covered range making it utterly impossible for anything to come near it. Like take that 4th level Turret vs a 20th level Ship Captain, assuming they waste their precious 6th level Arsenal Slot on Trombe they have 360mu/rnd without having to stop for energy recharging and it has 46 DR. A 4th level Turret deals a Rending 8d12, or 6 after DR. Ships have 100 energy, lose 10 per hit, and have no Energy Regen by default and the Captain them selves can only regenerate their Spirit once per fifty rounds. Assuming they get three full energy regens off they sustain 120 damage every 18,000mu traveled, they need to burn additional resources to survive the 58,560 damage the Ship will take just trying to approach a Turret one fifth it's level. One low level Turret has rendered space invasions impossible.

And before you say "cover" totally prevents most of that, on average Earth and Mars is about 54.6 million kilometers apart. 1km = 3280.84ft = 546mu, there is an average of 29,811,600,000mu of space between these two celestial bodies even through they are classified as being next to each other in the same Solar System. The distances in space are quite large.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 03:54:53 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #904 on: March 24, 2017, 08:52:55 AM »
I think of it as more 10,000 square miles is just the land grab and the physical base's building is a lot smaller.

Yanno, like how real world military bases are not build smack dab in the middle of a packed city but out in the middle of nowhere where they can adjudicate themselves having absolutely nothing else nearby that can be used to snoop on the base. It makes security easier when your base is surrounded by nothing but empty space so nobody is coming up on that unannounced. Or down in the middle of a heavy jungle that naturally hides the base from far-spying eyes and/or satellites. If nobody knows it's there, nobody'll know when the people guarding the base just up and murder people for getting to close and publicly chalk it up to "got lost and probably eaten by wild animals".

Now that depends what the purpose of the base is.
No it doesn't  :P Because everyone in dnd that has a base of operations is paranoid about this shit~
Word.

If I had gone any lower now I would have to deal with suggestions of just cramming bases inside their character's pockets or  someone wanting to use bases as ammo for weapons
I like the idea but honestly who cares? With a capped none-Epic Leadership Score of 25 you can only have four turrets for 8d12*4, that's 208 damage but totally useless if the target is within 300mu. Four 4th level Super Pilots can use Growth, Extra, Tank Mode, and Mighty x3 for 1d10+1d6+6+DexMod*3*4 for 180+ damage, if they have 16 Dex they deal more and they can most of the weapon addons as well. But unlike the turrets they can fire at anyone near by and you know, punch people in the face, split into dozens of clones, hell they could even use Maneuvers.
Turrets only take time and space to build, and are gained as a sub-option of a secondary ability of the support staff. Yes, they're not supposed to keep up with damage of other classes burning their actual class resources into damage.

The main deal is the 10,000 square miles through 300mu range. That's 8,799,700mu of covered range making it utterly impossible for anything to come near it. Like take that 4th level Turret vs a 20th level Ship Captain, assuming they waste their precious 6th level Arsenal Slot on Trombe they have 360mu/rnd without having to stop for energy recharging and it has 46 DR. A 4th level Turret deals a Rending 8d12, or 6 after DR. Ships have 100 energy, lose 10 per hit, and have no Energy Regen by default and the Captain them selves can only regenerate their Spirit once per fifty rounds. Assuming they get three full energy regens off they sustain 120 damage every 18,000mu traveled, they need to burn additional resources to survive the 58,560 damage the Ship will take just trying to approach a Turret one fifth it's level. One low level Turret has rendered space invasions impossible.
-Turrets auto-target closest, so that's why, instead of your space carrier, your vanguard should consist of either expendable mooks or the tough regenerating dude or high AC spec ahead to bait shots. A Real could spam Alert every round forever with Spirit Regen.
-Turrets auto-detect only works for bigger than mecha diminutive, meaning another possibility is for normal medium size pilots to get on foot, approach close enough by stealth, then take out the turrets when they're in their blind spots. Both supers and reals get feats for calling up mechas (or mecha-class weaponry at least) anywhere.
-Bring your own Support Staff and open up with a Super Weapon like the Colony Laser.
-It's a 20th level ship captain, why exactly are they trying to get through the enemy 4th level fortification? Just Heaven Sailing Dragon directly to your objective.

The turrets make it drastically harder for a single unit to raid at their leisure, but a party working together will still prevail.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 09:30:54 AM by oslecamo »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #905 on: March 24, 2017, 01:05:29 PM »
Turrets only take time and space to build, and are gained as a sub-option of a secondary ability of the support staff. Yes, they're not supposed to keep up with damage of other classes burning their actual class resources into damage.
That's kind of my point in that area. >.>
Throwing a Turret on smaller land really doesn't going to make them some kind of choose-all option, they are inferior in several ways to other Classes, except for range...

-Turrets auto-target closest, so that's why, instead of your space carrier, your vanguard should consist of either expendable mooks or the tough regenerating dude or high AC spec ahead to bait shots.
Doesn't matter. Like wise bringing up Alert is pointless since even Leadership can give you four of these and you still have four other, higher-level, Followers to choose supply bases and such. Heck in Bahamut's case Atomic Temple doubles this and we're talking about a single character here, not a civilization over a hundred thousand people strong currently worried if another fraction is going to attack them or not or how a planet support several tens of thousands of these even at the noted "too high" land consumption rate. And wondering why a 20th level Ship Captain is fighting a 4th level Turret is really just you missing the point: All you need is a single lv4 Torrent to successfully fend a 20th level character off.

Like totally ignoring the fact that Mech's don't move as fast due to Energy limitations, even at the rate of 360mu/rnd and needing one hundred rounds to kill a single "vanguard" agent, you need an army of two hundred and forty four of them just to attack a single low level base addition. It doesn't matter if you think 8d12*8 isn't a lot or think that's one to many followers, it's the fact that a Turret has nearly twenty five thousand rounds to attack oncoming enemies and as a result even a single one of them at the lowest level possible is enough to wipe characters that are too high for your games off the map.

In Osl speak, when combat starts against your supernatural mecha-wielding mundanes the Turrent drops 8,147 Time Stops except he's able to attack during them. For a guy that hates magic, you created a binary railroad of "must have teleport to win". Their range needs some serious reconsideration. Like you don't have this problem with archers in castles because the archers can only shoot at what they can see and Spot has penalty for distance, likewise the archers incur penalties to attack rolls the further out a target gets as well. Turrets ignore both of these with a massive covered area.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 01:33:17 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #906 on: March 24, 2017, 03:00:38 PM »
If the answer to 'how does a level 20 character get to a level 4 character' is 'constantly spam perfect defences whilst sitting on another level 20 character's face' or 'major infiltration mission', the return on investment is probably too high.

And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #907 on: March 24, 2017, 03:27:28 PM »
And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Yep, the turrets can overlap each other in certain circumstances, like it's unclear if they have to be in the exact center of the area, a 20kx20k area could have four turrets sitting 300mu away from each other allowing three of them to gun down anyone attacking the fourth which is the ideal way to build them on a two dimensional plane. But you also can move into three dimensional mapping where ten thousand square anything can be fit multiple times into a cubic measurement, such as mountainous terrain may be several thousand miles on foot but as the crow flies if could only be half of that, or you know. Asteroids.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 03:29:08 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #908 on: March 24, 2017, 03:29:08 PM »
And by working off of "can hit anything within this area" rather than any actual range, you open the path for some very strange and problematic layouts.

A 10,000 square mile tunnel deathtrap, for one. Though actually establishing that would be worth it.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #909 on: March 24, 2017, 04:12:14 PM »
And by working off of "can hit anything within this area" rather than any actual range, you open the path for some very strange and problematic layouts.

A 10,000 square mile tunnel deathtrap, for one. Though actually establishing that would be worth it.

You mean like the Death Star?

Speaking of, I've been meaning to ask. Do spells such as Ray Deflection and Wind Wall have ANY effect at all on lasers and bullets? If not, which ones do, and how does one manage to get a sizeable protection to or immunity against Force?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #910 on: March 24, 2017, 04:28:14 PM »
Speaking of, I've been meaning to ask. Do spells such as Ray Deflection and Wind Wall have ANY effect at all on lasers and bullets? If not, which ones do, and how does one manage to get a sizeable protection to or immunity against Force?
I could have sworn I told you about Forceward in the PMs.

Anyway, Ray Deflection only prevents ranged touch attacks, use Friendly Fire instead to redirect their attacks back at them or to one of your nearby opponents instead.

Not sure on Wind Wall, but to be honest we have no "modern" support to begin with. Like we had to guess cell phones were a thing since nothing is mentioned, not even a simplistic ok to use post-PL2 from WotC-printed official content because it competes with his homebrew so we lose all kinds of already handled details. Like did you know you can email Scrolls in Modern? Single recipient limit of course, but imagine organizing and reading all of your scrolls on your Kindle app if you wanted. And we don't even know how to drive a car >.>
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 04:43:50 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #911 on: March 25, 2017, 09:17:44 AM »
If the answer to 'how does a level 20 character get to a level 4 character' is 'constantly spam perfect defences whilst sitting on another level 20 character's face' or 'major infiltration mission', the return on investment is probably too high.

And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Thing is, if all you do is spam turrets, the other side spams factories and can just focus their mobile forces to zerg rush out your static defenses one at a time.

Also spirit regen+Alert can be done quite early, and a super robot can easily get damage to 1/4 early on with Defend+Support Defense.

Or you can just grab Defender/Predict and scale your defenses until the turrets can't hurt your anymore.

Speaking of, I've been meaning to ask. Do spells such as Ray Deflection and Wind Wall have ANY effect at all on lasers and bullets?
No.

If not, which ones do, and how does one manage to get a sizeable protection to or immunity against Force?
Get AC buffs and miss chances?


And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Yep, the turrets can overlap each other in certain circumstances, like it's unclear if they have to be in the exact center of the area, a 20kx20k area could have four turrets sitting 300mu away from each other allowing three of them to gun down anyone attacking the fourth which is the ideal way to build them on a two dimensional plane. But you also can move into three dimensional mapping where ten thousand square anything can be fit multiple times into a cubic measurement, such as mountainous terrain may be several thousand miles on foot but as the crow flies if could only be half of that, or you know. Asteroids.

A 5-feet-square of plain glass and a 5-feet square of rough rocks both count as 5-feet squares in D&D.

And it is one single continuous area, so no splitting over multiple objects.

And we don't even know how to drive a car

I'm pretty sure none of the players here knows how to drive a chariot either.

Stop trying to bring forgotten relics of bygone ages into play.  :P
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 12:09:27 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #912 on: March 25, 2017, 11:30:18 AM »
If the answer to 'how does a level 20 character get to a level 4 character' is 'constantly spam perfect defences whilst sitting on another level 20 character's face' or 'major infiltration mission', the return on investment is probably too high.

And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Thing is, if all you do is spam turrets, the other side spams factories and can just focus their mobile forces to zerg rush out your static defenses one at a time.

Also spirit regen+Alert can be done quite early, and a super robot can easily get damage to 1/4 early on with Defend+Support Defense.

I think the scale of up to 10,000 miles range has been missed. Even if you have a nice square area and it's only halfway from the edge, that's 8,500 MU of effective range. Zerg rushing even the most convenient case is a pretty dismal attempt. With less even areas, that's up to 175,700MU.

And this is 40 or so rounds of "I use alert!" and hoping there is nothing else in this base aside from one turret? Or that there only is the one turret?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #913 on: March 25, 2017, 12:24:29 PM »
If the turret is not at the center of the base, it also means you can go around the perimeter and have an easier time getting into its blind spot.

Speaking of zerg, einst can just burrow below.

There's also the Guardian and Predict feat which means as long as you can endure a few hits, you soon become virtually immune to multiple turrets without need of any more actions.

Yes, there could be more enemies lurking in, but that's not a problem specific to the turrets. If anything, if there are turrets, it means there are no factories churning out reinforcements.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 12:26:32 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #914 on: March 25, 2017, 01:43:12 PM »
While not taking a position in this, wouldn't factories be their own base and so not benefit from fortifications? They'd be more vulnerable than a base with turrets. The way it is currently set it seems you cannot make a fortified factory even if you spend two "base" abilities on a single base area (since all such areas can only support a single base).

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #915 on: March 25, 2017, 05:27:52 PM »
I'm pretty sure none of the players here knows how to drive a chariot either.
Wanna bet? :smirk

If anything, if there are turrets, it means there are no factories churning out reinforcements.
You've never played an RTS have you?

Basic design strategy is you bury your primary outpost behind your defenses, and as you branch out you can start using more and more defensive measures until the area is secured then you simply rebuild those defensive protections into supply generators.

For example, a planetoid can only support six bases could be built in a more defensive design. You build four turrets space around the equator, and two factories at the north and south poles. Approaching from any direction still allows three turrets to fire making it damn near impossible for anything other than micro-infantry to attack and it produces two mechs per week to combat those.

And those will sit towards the outer ring of controller territory. Moving inwards, onto a moon-sized planetoid, 1,460 bases can be built and you technically only need two turrets to defend it anyway since one is enough to blow anything 20th level out of the water. But let's go ahead and allocate 10% of the space to defenses, then out of the remaining split half that to real, then out of the remaining near-quarter split that up into super-level. That moon produces 34,164 real robots, 9,855 super robots, 4,927 arcane robots, and 4,927 divine robots per year and from any given direction 73 turrets can fire at approaching targets. Round some digits for bunkers to store overstock as needed and there ya go. Of course a more styled zerger may just stick to one turret, because that's all that is needed, and build a single factory next to it while dashing across the known space as a land grab.

Population generators, you know where baby pilots come from, may sit even further in your defended zone. But as the need for 146 turret defenses reduces to roughly half that (I personally never scrap all of my defenses), they can simply move to that moon.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 05:31:26 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #916 on: March 25, 2017, 05:56:38 PM »
If the turret is not at the center of the base, it also means you can go around the perimeter and have an easier time getting into its blind spot.

A feat that makes no sense.

How can I have a turret that is able to fire at 10,000 miles or more with the same accuracy as at effective point blank... and at the same time, because of positioning, have a minimum range in the other direction of 30' to 60' or something similarly ridiculous.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #917 on: March 26, 2017, 02:38:36 AM »
While not taking a position in this, wouldn't factories be their own base and so not benefit from fortifications? They'd be more vulnerable than a base with turrets. The way it is currently set it seems you cannot make a fortified factory even if you spend two "base" abilities on a single base area (since all such areas can only support a single base).

That is correct. That's why you want to set up factories either hidden or inside a perimeter of fortifications and/or organize patrols with the factory's production.

But if all you spam is fortifications, you're completely giving up the ability to project power.

If the turret is not at the center of the base, it also means you can go around the perimeter and have an easier time getting into its blind spot.

A feat that makes no sense.

How can I have a turret that is able to fire at 10,000 miles or more with the same accuracy as at effective point blank... and at the same time, because of positioning, have a minimum range in the other direction of 30' to 60' or something similarly ridiculous.

It's called hyper specialization. The turret is carefully calibrated for firing at certain set of angles and distances from its position, and cannot aim at all at anything outside its parameters.

Do notice that this means turrets from one base cannot fire into another base's area, and even a 20th level support staff can only cram 20 turrets to support each other assuming they don't build anything else in that fortification.

Also the reason why you can't just rip it off and carry around. Would only render useless all the careful calibrations and now it can't hit anything at all.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 02:43:36 AM by oslecamo »

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #918 on: March 26, 2017, 04:09:19 AM »
So is there anything is your SRW stuff for hacking yet?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #919 on: March 26, 2017, 05:55:16 AM »
Internet Explorer has some maneuvers that are kinda hackish. I don't plan to offer more if any support because hacking directly takes away from the focus of giant robot combat.