"Someone got paid for this?!" Terrible sourcebooks and modules thread

[Shinkuro]

not sure how that has anything to do with the ninja, then.

when you fight lots of dragons and outsiders, as normal at the high levels, the ninja's vanishing trick does nothing relevant. and the ninja doesn't even deal enough damage to drop a foe, even using 2WF with agile wakazashis and a Ki point every round. and even at levels 4-9, when i played that ninja, there were a lot of dragons and outsiders. some of which were templated to meet the CR guidelines.

[veekie]

Right, game specific bug basically. The rogue would do a lot worse in those cases anyway.

[Cyclone Joker]

I'm personally going to say that Book of Exalted Deeds is probably the single worst WotC book I've ever read. It's even worse than most Pathfinder books, and is mechanically less sound than all but the worst Palladium or WW books.

I mean, a book for goody-two-shoes is interesting, sure, but seriously, the "Drugs and poisons are evil. Here, have Good^tm brand Poisons and drugs, and, hey, we'll throw in a mindrape free" idea was absurd. It's basically an even worse version of BoVD, but for the good guys. Compounding on this is the fact that I seriously cannot imagine Exalted being sustainable. It's just too strict.

Also, I'd like to nominate Rifts. The whole series. It's combat system is worse than Spawn of Fashan's, and the balance is worse than the worst White Wolf I've ever read.

[Libertad]

Well, I thought that the Champion of Gwynarhf (or whatever that Holy Barbarian PrC was) is pretty nifty.  It's pretty much superior to pure Barbarian levels, but it's improving a Tier 4 melee class with some spellcasting and charm/compulsion immunity.  It's a pretty good option all around.

[Cyclone Joker]

Well, I thought that the Champion of Gwynarhf (or whatever that Holy Barbarian PrC was) is pretty nifty.  It's pretty much superior to pure Barbarian levels, but it's improving a Tier 4 melee class with some spellcasting and charm/compulsion immunity.  It's a pretty good option all around.

Yeah, but it's Exalted. Being Exalted just doesn't work.

Plus, I'm still going with Runescarred Berserker as the go-to Barbarian PrC.

[Unbeliever]

Well, I thought that the Champion of Gwynarhf (or whatever that Holy Barbarian PrC was) is pretty nifty.  It's pretty much superior to pure Barbarian levels, but it's improving a Tier 4 melee class with some spellcasting and charm/compulsion immunity.  It's a pretty good option all around.

It is quite good, especially if you build with it in mind.  I kind of have no idea what Cyclone Joker is whinging about how Exalted is impossible to do, but I am coming to view that as the default state of affairs. 

All it says in my copy of the book is that you lose the feats if you "willingly and willfully commit an evil act" until you atone for the violation.  So, like a Paladin ... which are unplayable now? 

I suppose if you have a DM committed to fucking you over (e.g., putting you in terrible alignment positions, though again, you can always atone), then maybe that's true.  But, that's true for every single character in D&D ...

I'm not really defending BOED all that much, just pointing out how hyperbolic the posts above this one are. 

[Cyclone Joker]

All it says in my copy of the book is that you lose the feats if you "willingly and willfully commit an evil act" until you atone for the violation.  So, like a Paladin ... which are unplayable now? 

You haven't actually read the Fiendish Codices or BoVD, or even BoED recently, have you? The list of "evil acts" is so absurd, open-ended, and poorly written, I don't know how some of the authors get up in the morning without injuring themselves.

[Unbeliever]

All it says in my copy of the book is that you lose the feats if you "willingly and willfully commit an evil act" until you atone for the violation.  So, like a Paladin ... which are unplayable now? 

You haven't actually read the Fiendish Codices or BoVD, or even BoED recently, have you? The list of "evil acts" is so absurd, open-ended, and poorly written, I don't know how some of the authors get up in the morning without injuring themselves.

Nah, I've been too busy actually playing D&D.  I see no massive list of evil acts in BoED.  The most thorny issue I think might be the treatment of prisoners, although that only rarely comes up in an ordinary D&D campaign.  And, all those sections (the first 20 or so pages of BoED, for example) are riddled with question marks, not authoritative statements.  Much of it is up for grabs, which could potentially be great stuff for playing an RPG, viz. any great work of fantasy literature.  Crazy, I know.  Not to mention the extensive mentioning of atonement. 

Anything that could apply to the BoED would apply to any good alignment-based class or class features.  I will readily concede that any table where there will be tons (well, any b/c they are fucking annoying) of stupid alignment debates that you should shelve BoED, or anything else alignment-based. 

But, to reiterate my earlier point, then that game is engineered to screw over the whole idea.  Acting like that is the default mode of D&D, or indulging in a very restrictive reading of deliberately open-ended rules to do so, is disingenuous.  If that's the way your tables run, then that's fine -- I think there are good arguments against to doing things that way, but that's a discussion for another thread.  But, don't act like that's somehow dictated by the text of the rules.

[Cyclone Joker]

The rules say it, therefore the rules don't say it? That's an... odd way to look at it.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

The rules say it, therefore the rules don't say it? That's an... odd way to look at it.

Which part of BoED describes the rules associated with being an exalted character as opposed to suggesting fluff for how to roleplay an exalted character?

This is a genuine question. I agree that much of the "On the Nature of Good" chapter is a contradictory muddle but I don't see any actual rules in that chapter.

[nijineko]

Also, I'd like to nominate Rifts. The whole series. It's combat system is worse than Spawn of Fashan's, and the balance is worse than the worst White Wolf I've ever read.

but, but, i like having my mindmelter possessing a suit of glitterboy armor modified with a holographic camouflage unit, telekinetic forcefield, an appropriately sized mind sword and with it taking on atlantean slavers, great horned dragons, insane cybernetic intelligent ex-defense systems, fascist coalition goons, juicers that make bane look like a cinnamon and sugar addict, at least 15 different dimensions encroaching all spewing flora and fauna onto earth, and vampires living in harmonious accord with their voluntary blood donor citizens, with random additions from tmnt, ninja and superspies, heroes unlimited, and robotech just for kicks.... not to mention having to deal with what seems like +20 occ and +10 rcc per book released with more books in total than several d&d editions put together....

[humorous sarcasm]oh wait, that just supports your point, doesn't it. ^^ [/humorous sarcasm]

[Demelain]

The rules say it, therefore the rules don't say it? That's an... odd way to look at it.

Frankly, there is a lot of stuff that is in the rulebook that people ignore. While there are certainly groups that strictly enforce the alignment system as written, I know far more who simply ignore it or significantly reinterpret it. Similarly, I don't think I know a single person that enforces multiclass penalties - it just seems to be commonly accepted that these are poor rules.

For my part, I'd like to nominate the PHB Sorcerer. Not that it's bad or anything, it's just so... thoughtless. Like a copy-pasted Wizard, but with the spellbook section snipped out and the bonus feats cut.

[dman11235]

The Sorcerer is actually number 1 on my worst designed classes list, barely edging out the Cleric, and then followed by the Wizard, Psychic Warrior, and Fighter.  Fighter and PsyWar are pretty much tied, with a slight benefit towards the PsyWar for having powers.

[McBeardly]

I'm surprised that anyone has paid actual money for a cthulhutech book.

Changing Breds would have to be my nominee for worse White Wolf book ever published. As it fails in both crunch add fluff. None of its templates are balanced against the splats its supposed to mix with (base mortals laughably, and arguably werewolf), and it brings back all of the really stupid furry psuedo-environmentalist crap that was thankfully otherwise toned down in the transition from oWoD to nWoD.

[nijineko]

i think we can all agree that the boed and bovd are poorly written and deserve to be listed in this sort of thread. while there may be individual things which people consider exceptions to that, overall they both are pretty bad.

[zook1shoe]

I think its more that certain fluff chapters/concepts are poorly written. Much more with the BoED than BoVD.

[altpersona]

Also, I'd like to nominate Rifts. The whole series. It's combat system is worse than Spawn of Fashan's, and the balance is worse than the worst White Wolf I've ever read.

but, but, i like having my mindmelter possessing a suit of glitterboy armor modified with a holographic camouflage unit, telekinetic forcefield, an appropriately sized mind sword and with it taking on atlantean slavers, great horned dragons, insane cybernetic intelligent ex-defense systems, fascist coalition goons, juicers that make bane look like a cinnamon and sugar addict, at least 15 different dimensions encroaching all spewing flora and fauna onto earth, and vampires living in harmonious accord with their voluntary blood donor citizens, with random additions from tmnt, ninja and superspies, heroes unlimited, and robotech just for kicks.... not to mention having to deal with what seems like +20 occ and +10 rcc per book released with more books in total than several d&d editions put together....

[humorous sarcasm]oh wait, that just supports your point, doesn't it. ^^ [/humorous sarcasm]

but; but, rifts was awesome. except for the part where you have to use the mechanic

[Unbeliever]

^ pretty much my feelings on Rifts exactly.

Although I have always felt it was rather ... unsubtle?  Clumsy, maybe?  The idea of Rifts has always been better than the game, even with its incredibly clunky mechanics. 

[wotmaniac]

I'm gonna go ahead and nominate yet another White Wolf product .... Scion

On the surface, it looks like a neat concept; and I actually like some ideas contained therein (such as "tick" initiative, for one).
However, WW's complete and total obliviousness of even the most basic concepts of "balance" is front and center throughout this entire production line -- with Knacks and Pervues being the biggest and most blatant offenders.  And things only got worse as the line continued. 
Monkeys on typewriters could've done a better job on Knacks and Pervues.

And don't get me started on some of the WTF Pantheon concepts (I'm looking at you, Yankee and Chinese Bureaucracy). 

[Nanshork]

Yeah, there's a huge imbalance between the abilities you get to choose out of.  This even applies when it comes to making your relic items (I forget what they're called).