Author Topic: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!  (Read 6822 times)

Offline Arturick

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"Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« on: April 25, 2012, 09:54:36 PM »
I've been listening to a lot of "Happy Jacks RPG Podcast," and a bit of "Fear the Boot" and "Kicked in The Dicebags," while I'm doing desk work at my job.  For the most part, they're amusing, but they drive me insane when they start on their rants about Character Optimizers being sub-human freaks with an allergy to role-playing.  They always haul out the same tired claims:

1.  Optimizers Don't Have Character Backgrounds - The greater one's familiarity with the rules, the weaker your grasp on the written word or creative thinking.  Only people with suboptimal feats and bizarre skill expenditures have the capacity to rattle off a page or two of origin story, and they should be heaped with praise for doing so, even if the character they describe in their background is largely incapable of the feats they've allegedly accomplished.

2.  Optimizers Are Only Good at One Thing - "Min/maxing/munchkins" create characters with a single, narrow focus, and are crippled in all other elements of life.  They should be shown the error of their ways by constantly forcing them to face challenges they can't handle!  The character is (for some reason) a God of Grappling?  Every enemy is incorporeal and on fire!  Hah!  Character can't ride/drive?  Time for impossible piloting checks wherever possible!

3.  Optimizers Are Obsessed With "Winning" D&D - Every min/maxer is an anti-social disciple of Charlie Sheen.  Real role-players are happy to have every single character they create beaten, raped, and slowly devoured within three game sessions.  Trying to optimize for survivability means you are trying to break the DM's carefully crafted narrative.  (Happy Jacks actually promotes the opinion that sessions are only fun when the characters fail at stuff.)

4.  Look Out For The Following (suboptimal) Signs of an Optimizer! - Sneak attack!  Despite not even working on undead, oozes, constructs, elementals, plants, guys with Uncanny Dodge, Fortification Armor, Formians, Displacer Beasts, people standing in fog, and things where the DM decides that their "vitals are out of reach"...  It's crazy powerful, and Wizards was insane to make it so easy to pull off!  Also keep an eye out for Fighters who put a high stat in Strength and Wizards with Fireball!

So, since characters who are, you know, competent at something need to be punished, what do you do?

You make a character that sucks, and become a GOD.

You see, if the GM has a set narrative in mind (coupled with a rigid and reality-devoid perception of how things should work), the party needs to make a bunch of shlubs who are weak to mediocre at EVERYTHING!  The challenge of everything will be set within the grasp of the players, except when the GM has chosen a party member to violate horribly and you must fail for the sake of the narrative.

When the Storyteller sees what an AWESOME role-player you are (by acting like you totally should be able to do something effectively, even though you clearly can't cash THAT check), he will dump over-WBL treasure on you, and probably at least one homebrewed artifact (probably with an annoying personality).  And you shall use your ill-gotten gains to slay epic monsters, like ogres in dragon costumes!  No, not dragons...  You know, with spells, and flying, and things like that...  Ogres in dragon outfits!  Made from actual dragon scales!

Once you've harvested the dragon scales and pointedly ignored the naked, bloody ogre underneath, you point out to the Narrator that the RAW do not make dragon scale armor more awesome than what you have.  Then you'll get your second homebrewed artifact!  The sky is the limit...  although...  flying really only happens in cut scenes, because the party doesn't really handle mobile enemies particularly well.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2012, 10:02:34 PM »
I don't listen to the above-mentioned podcasts.  But, from what I'm gathering it's sort of the standard old-school grognardia. 

It sounds like what the podcasters really want is (more or less) what is referred to here is "magical tea party" -- a game with little rules and where the DM is free to adjudicate as he sees fit.  I imagine this is tinged with more than a bit of nostalgia on their parts for when they first got involved in the game. 

I also think they're a bit at war with what a D&D character is meant to do or what it symbolizes.  Again, this strikes me as grognard territory.  Back in AD&D (and earlier editions), a 1st level character was comically incapable.  I have, literally, seen a 1st level character killed by small children with rocks.  So, if that's your goal with characters, especially starting off, then the baseline level of capability of a 3E or (especially) a 4E 1st level character will annoy you.  And, any attention towards optimization is just going to exacerbate it. 

Now, of course, they are ignoring the fact that literally no fantasy protagonists in any work of fiction have ever been that inept, fragile, and useless, but whatever ...

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2012, 12:10:27 AM »
See, if you're looking for a real definition of basket weaver, that's the type of stuff you point to.  People that purposefully build to fail and then expect to be rewarded for it.  "Because it's in my origin story, damn it!"

Offline Alexei

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2012, 06:18:16 AM »
To me, when the DM refers to himself as "I'm more of a Storyteller" that's a big red flag, because it usually means that he wants to narrate a story where -usually- his DMPCs are awesome and you are an inept who must be grateful because his DMPC lets them carry his shield.
Edit: oh, also, when you are punished because you don't suck, just pick up your PHB and hit your Storyteller in the face yelling "It's in my background!" then walk away
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 06:21:33 AM by Alexei »

Offline Tempest

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 08:34:31 AM »
I'll admit I've never listened to any of those podcasts, but they sound like people who are quite incapable of telling two groups of people apart. I suppose the most obvious way to put it is like this:

All munchkins are optimizers, not all optimizers are munchkins

In much the same way that all murderers are humans, but not all humans are murderers. There are sadly a lot of people who tend to make general assumptions about a group of people based on the actions of a few individuals, a sad but unavoidable truth of human nature.
Am I saying that they're wrong in their assumptions? Not really. I can only guess that they're talking from their own experience, though it's possible they may have been 'corrupted' by the opinions of others in some way or another, no way to know and it's not really the point.
Instead of going on a long boring rant, I'd rather add my own comments to the points OP gives above.

1. Optimizers Don't Have Character Backgrounds - This is like saying "Players don't have character backgrounds" in that it is yet again a generalisation of a group of people, and that the definition of an optimizer varies from person to person. The only real truth I can find in this statement is something I myself am quite aware of, namely the fact that an optimizer tends to make the character sheet first, and then the actual character afterwards. For some people this is not inherently a problem, but it often results in a very mechanical and generic character, the character's personality and traits based entirely on a sheet of paper instead of an original thought from the player, and I can see why this looks bad in the eyes of others who enjoy creating their character and its concept first, and then figuring out the math afterwards.
There is also the fact that optimizers loathes to 'weaken' their character on behalf of roleplaying or adding extra depth to their character, and in the end they'll often end up with a very powerful, but personality wise boring character without any of the flaws which quite often makes characters interesting.

2. Optimizers Are Only Good at One Thing - Well, in a way it 'is' true that a lot of optimizers will make their character good at only one, or at least a few things instead of being decent in a lot of areas, this varies a lot based on character classes and concepts, but it's also true that optimizers create characters which are godly at grappling, tripping, etc.. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently wrong with this, it's just that OP makes it sound like this is entirely false and they're idiots for thinking so. What I do have an issue with is that they feel the players should be punished for this, which is an entirely pointless argument, considering that DM is NOT, and I will repeat, NOT against the players, but a storyteller who is there in order to tell a story together with the players, a lot of people tend to forget this, which is quite a shame. If a player makes a character who is good in only a few areas, then the DM is supposed to create situations wherein the player can feel useful and have a good time, that's the entire point of the game after all.

3. Optimizers Are Obsessed With "Winning" D&D - Not sure what the anti-social part has to do with anything, seems more like a pointless insult than an actual argument. Regardless, I'll once again point to my above point that not all optimizers are munchkins, and munchkins are the ones who want to 'win' DnD.
Besides, there's no way to 'win' at DnD, considering that the DM is the one who decides how it all turns out.

4. Look Out For The Following (suboptimal) Signs of an Optimizer! - This is just silly and I don't feel like commenting on it.



Quote
You see, if the GM has a set narrative in mind (coupled with a rigid and reality-devoid perception of how things should work), the party needs to make a bunch of shlubs who are weak to mediocre at EVERYTHING!  The challenge of everything will be set within the grasp of the players, except when the GM has chosen a party member to violate horribly and you must fail for the sake of the narrative.

When the Storyteller sees what an AWESOME role-player you are (by acting like you totally should be able to do something effectively, even though you clearly can't cash THAT check), he will dump over-WBL treasure on you, and probably at least one homebrewed artifact (probably with an annoying personality).  And you shall use your ill-gotten gains to slay epic monsters, like ogres in dragon costumes!  No, not dragons...  You know, with spells, and flying, and things like that...  Ogres in dragon outfits!  Made from actual dragon scales!

Once you've harvested the dragon scales and pointedly ignored the naked, bloody ogre underneath, you point out to the Narrator that the RAW do not make dragon scale armor more awesome than what you have.  Then you'll get your second homebrewed artifact!  The sky is the limit...  although...  flying really only happens in cut scenes, because the party doesn't really handle mobile enemies particularly well.

All games are different depending on the DM, in the end all that a player can do is to make a character they think will be enjoyable to play, use said characters to interact with the world and thereafter it's up to the DM how it all turns out. Basic DnD really.
Even if an entire party only has "weak shlubs" as you put it, what's stopping that group from having fun? It's entirely up to the DM if he wants to punish the players for making such 'weak' characters, or if he wants to do the right thing and create challenges and encounters which these players can actually overcome.


Quote
To me, when the DM refers to himself as "I'm more of a Storyteller" that's a big red flag, because it usually means that he wants to narrate a story where -usually- his DMPCs are awesome and you are an inept who must be grateful because his DMPC lets them carry his shield.

I feel that you've had some very bad experiences with railroading DMs and for that I'm sorry, but in the end it's the DM's job to be the storyteller in everything but an open-world game. It's important for a DM to create an interesting story which the players can interact and have fun with, there's really nothing else to it than that.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 08:43:17 AM »
3.  Optimizers Are Obsessed With "Winning" D&D - Every min/maxer is an anti-social disciple of Charlie Sheen.  Real role-players are happy to have every single character they create beaten, raped, and slowly devoured within three game sessions.  Trying to optimize for survivability means you are trying to break the DM's carefully crafted narrative.  (Happy Jacks actually promotes the opinion that sessions are only fun when the characters fail at stuff.)

4.  Look Out For The Following (suboptimal) Signs of an Optimizer! - Sneak attack!  Despite not even working on undead, oozes, constructs, elementals, plants, guys with Uncanny Dodge, Fortification Armor, Formians, Displacer Beasts, people standing in fog, and things where the DM decides that their "vitals are out of reach"...  It's crazy powerful, and Wizards was insane to make it so easy to pull off!  Also keep an eye out for Fighters who put a high stat in Strength and Wizards with Fireball!
I've never understood the rational behind this thinking other than "lol the DM's in charge. Stop trying to outsmart him."

At the end of the day, when you play a D&D session, it should be able to tell a story. Maybe you're trying to rescue some woman kidnapped by orcs. Maybe you're trying to stop a zombie invasion and/or kill the necromancer. If you're toying between rolling up an orc barbarian with a high Str and low Int/Cha (lol munchkin!) or a plucky gnome barbarian with a high Charisma for social skills who TWFs with small shortswords (lol roleplayer!) it's going to affect the outcome of that story. If you want more happy endings with rescued damsels and dead necromancers, you'd better pick the orc.

As for trying to create survivable PCs: dead PCs tend not to complete quests. Although, these are probably the same DMs who retcon every TPK as "lol captured! Break out and (maybe) get back your loot!" or "lol captured! Now do a quest for your captor!".
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2012, 08:52:11 AM »
At the end of the day, when you play a D&D session, it should be able to tell a story. Maybe you're trying to rescue some woman kidnapped by orcs. Maybe you're trying to stop a zombie invasion and/or kill the necromancer. If you're toying between rolling up an orc barbarian with a high Str and low Int/Cha (lol munchkin!) or a plucky gnome barbarian with a high Charisma for social skills who TWFs with small shortswords (lol roleplayer!) it's going to affect the outcome of that story. If you want more happy endings with rescued damsels and dead necromancers, you'd better pick the orc.

Then go tell your story to whoever's interested, and let the people who want to play a game play.

The whole point of there being rules is because D&D is a game-and you can lose games. There can't be victory conditions if there's no loss conditions. There's no point in there being rules for PC defeat if PCs are never defeated.

If you simply want to fulfill some fantasy of an invincible mary-sue that never loses anything,  you don't need rules at all for that.

Offline Tempest

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2012, 09:11:49 AM »
At the end of the day, when you play a D&D session, it should be able to tell a story. Maybe you're trying to rescue some woman kidnapped by orcs. Maybe you're trying to stop a zombie invasion and/or kill the necromancer. If you're toying between rolling up an orc barbarian with a high Str and low Int/Cha (lol munchkin!) or a plucky gnome barbarian with a high Charisma for social skills who TWFs with small shortswords (lol roleplayer!) it's going to affect the outcome of that story. If you want more happy endings with rescued damsels and dead necromancers, you'd better pick the orc.

Then go tell your story to whoever's interested, and let the people who want to play a game play.

The whole point of there being rules is because D&D is a game-and you can lose games. There can't be victory conditions if there's no loss conditions. There's no point in there being rules for PC defeat if PCs are never defeated.

If you simply want to fulfill some fantasy of an invincible mary-sue that never loses anything,  you don't need rules at all for that.

Erm, no.

You make it sound like DnD is a video game with a set difficulty and rigid storyline to follow, you're entirely missing the point of DnD and indeed every other roleplaying system out there for that matter. The 'whole point' of there being rules is for players to have a sense of character progression and strenght, for DMs to use exciting and interesting monsters at a level the PCs can overcome and indeed for there to be an actual combat system at all. It is entirely possible to play DnD without rules, as pure RP, but it's not going to be as interesting to most people if there's no combat system in it.
If you do indeed feel the way you say you do, then I suggest that you go play an RPG or MMORPG on the computer instead of wasting the time of a DM who has probably spent months creating a world and a story.
I'm not saying that PCs don't die, they certainly do, and when they do it'll more often be with a bit more emotional attachment than losing a sheet of paper with numbers and having to write a new one.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 09:14:28 AM by Tempest »

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2012, 09:57:30 AM »
At the end of the day, when you play a D&D session, it should be able to tell a story. Maybe you're trying to rescue some woman kidnapped by orcs. Maybe you're trying to stop a zombie invasion and/or kill the necromancer. If you're toying between rolling up an orc barbarian with a high Str and low Int/Cha (lol munchkin!) or a plucky gnome barbarian with a high Charisma for social skills who TWFs with small shortswords (lol roleplayer!) it's going to affect the outcome of that story. If you want more happy endings with rescued damsels and dead necromancers, you'd better pick the orc.

Then go tell your story to whoever's interested, and let the people who want to play a game play.

The whole point of there being rules is because D&D is a game-and you can lose games. There can't be victory conditions if there's no loss conditions. There's no point in there being rules for PC defeat if PCs are never defeated.

If you simply want to fulfill some fantasy of an invincible mary-sue that never loses anything,  you don't need rules at all for that.
Wat? Did you read my post?

When has an orc barbarian ever been invincible? They do, however, succeed more often than low Str TWFing gnome barbarians, which is what I did say. Unless you're arguing that poorly built gnome barbarians somehow fare better against orcs or zombies or something.

Did I say anything about no loss conditions? I simply said that survivable PCs tend to complete quests more.


Less strawmen, please. Unless you seriously expect me to defend a bunch of things I didn't say.
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Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2012, 01:36:55 PM »
That podcast sound like some players I know.  It is very laughable and in a ways sad that the podcaster don't seem to want to move foward.  I agree with both camps that D&D is a game to play with a story to tell.  The story is one of the players and their exploits.  The game is how those exploits get done.

I don't quite agree with what Tempest said on rigid storylines and set difficulty in video games.  Some mmo's are on a somewhat set path but not all and there are adjustable difficulties out there in video games.  I figure Tempest was making a broad sweep on things.
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Offline veekie

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2012, 02:18:46 PM »
One thing they are right on though, is that optimization tends towards specialization. Optimization demands specialization(unless you're a spellcaster, in which case every single spell available is a specialist in itself anyway), due to the levels of resource investment and tapping synergies.

This does restrict character concepts, precision damage users invariably go for dozens of attacks where possible(despite such characters being thematically tied to single, deadly strikes), etc. I consider these restrictions to be more a flaw of the system than the people working with and around them though.

And besides, the true core of a character is personality. Your character sheet barely relates there.
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Offline Alexei

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2012, 03:55:10 PM »
-Shortening the quote-
I feel that you've had some very bad experiences with railroading DMs and for that I'm sorry, but in the end it's the DM's job to be the storyteller in everything but an open-world game. It's important for a DM to create an interesting story which the players can interact and have fun with, there's really nothing else to it than that.
I have had good and bad experiences. But, above all, what everyone has to take into account, it's that the DM is not in charge of writing a story. The DM AND the players are in charge. The DM is the cement that unifies the players, the story and the world, but he isn't the only one to write it.
 D&D is a game and the characters are the protagonists. This must stay always in an important place in all DM minds. To the discussion about characters not losing. I feel sorry for the characters who never fail. After all, it's a game, the risk factor adds to the fun. Because who would be playing a game where they can't lose ever, even if they go all Leroy Jenkins or whatever?

The rules are there so the characters can write down their concept in paper form, and to have cohesion with everything, instead of the DM going crazy while thinking everything at once. An optimizer will just go and, before writing down his concept character in the sheet, see how he can build his character in a way he is happy to play. Because yes, a few people like to play incompetent characters -I have yet to meet one but I'll give this one, the world's huge- but most people will enjoy the game if two factors are given:
1- They are the heroes/villains of the story, always. NPCs, even important ones, must NOT take the spotlight for them. That is only the DM going over his fantasies.
2- They can contribute and be of help to the rest of the party. Nobody likes to be useless and feel out of place, and the DM will surely enjoy it more if the character is actually able to do something

I agree with Tempest in almost everything, I only disagree in the part of playing DnD without rules. That isn't DnD, that's Roleplaying; not that it's bad, it's just that I don't feel the label can be applied.
Oscleamo is right in the part of characters losing. Note, losing, not dying. Dying is already assumed as a possibility. The characters must also be able to fail if they don't work their way to success. A story shouldn't be already solved. If the characters can't fail... well, the story is already solved, isn't it?

PS. Don't ever listen to these podcasts, seriously.

Edit. Paragraphs.

Offline Arturick

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2012, 04:41:14 PM »
One thing they are right on though, is that optimization tends towards specialization. Optimization demands specialization(unless you're a spellcaster, in which case every single spell available is a specialist in itself anyway), due to the levels of resource investment and tapping synergies.

This does restrict character concepts, precision damage users invariably go for dozens of attacks where possible(despite such characters being thematically tied to single, deadly strikes), etc. I consider these restrictions to be more a flaw of the system than the people working with and around them though.

Yes and no.  Obviously, a precision damage guy is going to go for more attacks, and he is specialized in that arena, but he isn't optimized unless he can deal with multiple sorts of situations.  Throwing down a bunch of TWF attacks for SA is specializing.  Optimizing is when you pick up augment crystals to SA constructs and undead, or get some access to the spells that let you do the same.

The "Punish the Munchkin" mindset would see a Rogue lay down serious hurt on a human, then have nothing but golems and undead for the next few sessions.

Offline radionausea

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2012, 08:32:13 PM »
Again? Really? How many times is this going to appear? Every forum about roleplaying has this issue raise its ugly, boring head on an almost monthly basis; hasn't everybody, ever, already read and discussed something similar at least once?  :bigeyes
Something inside me dies when I see the word fallacy applied to ideas held about roleplaying. And a small bit of vomit comes up when I see a character called a 'toon'.

Offline Bozwevial

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2012, 02:35:34 AM »
3.  Optimizers Are Obsessed With "Winning" D&D - Every min/maxer is an anti-social disciple of Charlie Sheen.  Real role-players are happy to have every single character they create beaten, raped, and slowly devoured within three game sessions.  Trying to optimize for survivability means you are trying to break the DM's carefully crafted narrative.  (Happy Jacks actually promotes the opinion that sessions are only fun when the characters fail at stuff.)
There's an element of truth to that claim. The occasional failure can make future successes that much more enjoyable. That's not to say that every so often you should force players into an unwinnable scenario, of course. Most of the time, the possibility of failure is enough to keep things interesting, but failure actually does mean failure. Maybe that's just "forced to take the long route to the castle," maybe that's "the Carnival of Conflagration devours civilization." If there aren't actual consequences for failing, there's very little point to the game. You might as well be writing a story.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2012, 03:03:38 AM »
Life is about winning, only a moron says otherwise.

Your Father's sperm beat the rest, you beat the odds and were born instead of being aborted, you beat more odds and remained a live up until now, you won tests at school rather than failing multiple grades, you won your license to drive on the road, you won a job out of dozens of applicates, and maybe later on you'll win someone's heart. To not try to win is to fear failure, and I'm sure psychology has a name for it but to lie to your self and everyone around you with some BS excuse that you're not playing life and I'm sure the name isn't a good one and related to egoism.

The very definitions of "game" include the words "competitive" & "challenging", so for me to see someone trying to use "Win at D&D" as a term for something found at the bottom of their boots after a stroll through zombiolypse New York I instantly know they are some thirty year old jobless man living in his parent's basement. Because no matter how much D&D is about team play, at the end of the day four people want their characters alive and breathing for the next game and that requires them to win whatever the DM throws at them. Contextually, any game the group collectively has fun is a "win", and some times that requires a player feeling pretty BA about something he did or maybe little Mr Attention needs to slit his wrists and whine over how his lack of game knowledge has him playing a Venerable Half-Elf Samurai because in his messed up little mind he needs drama and conflict to function because that's the only source of adrenaline he'll ever experience.

And that's my rant this week.

Offline Keldar

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2012, 03:20:14 AM »
Again? Really? How many times is this going to appear? Every forum about roleplaying has this issue raise its ugly, boring head on an almost monthly basis; hasn't everybody, ever, already read and discussed something similar at least once?  :bigeyes
As long as humans maintain the ability to firmly lodge their heads into their own hindquarters, we'll be seeing this discussion.  Some people like to compensate for poor rule grasp by belittling those that get it and claiming they can't role play.  :rolleyes

Yes, I did just say they had d4s for dicks.   :D

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2012, 07:46:37 AM »
Again? Really? How many times is this going to appear? Every forum about roleplaying has this issue raise its ugly, boring head on an almost monthly basis; hasn't everybody, ever, already read and discussed something similar at least once?  :bigeyes
It does have one side benefit, though.  It makes me feel really really good about the score or so of people I play games with.  We are all very comfortable with discussing ways to realize various concepts mechanically, and being full and frank in our discussions of how they will interact with the game mechanics, what kinds of challenges we expect, and so on. 

Offline Endarire

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2012, 09:58:43 PM »
SorO: Though we disagree on some things, I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment!

Offline Dkonen

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Re: "Well Rounded Characters" are crazy broken OP!
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 04:55:10 PM »
I don't particularly see the point about Optimizers vs. Roleplayers. A player can be both, and often, after a bit of familiarity, is.

Usually players have ideas on what role they want their characters to fill, how they want them to look, act, and accomplish their day to day goals. Tailoring a character to do it in a specific fashion is showing knowledge of the system to give you the character you want to play. I'm not going to make a character that I'm constantly punishing myself and my party with. Conversely I'm also not going to make a character that overshadows every other player at the table just so I can feel superior. I do not put "making my GM refusing to run games for me" on my list of notes of pride. I love gaming and playing, so pissing off my GM seems like a bad idea.

As a GM I do moderate powerful characters with in game effects. Maybe they don't get as much "airtime" or they don't get some of the benefits a lower powered character does... but that only applies if someone's specifically trying to play the spotlight hogging munchkin. If it's just a good build and they can keep an eye out and try to fit in, I don't really mind whatever they play.

I'd like players to have good backgrounds... but some people aren't that creative. I'd rather the "uh...I don't know...whatever you want to do, I guess.." than "I'm the bastard son of the King of X and the Queen of Y magically blessed by the gods of 1, 2, 3 and fused with A, B, C and D greater powers pre birth!"   (yes I've had backgrounds like this before. No I did not give myself a concussion from the table smashing my forehead).

I don't mind good builds, I don't mind players who aren't very creative-but I do encourage it. I do however, draw the line at theatrical roleplayers. If it's not LARP, do not show up in costume, stand up to pronounce every single line of your dialog in an ominous ringing tone, and do not bring props to wave about gloriously. Your character is a person, not a caricature. If you do that in front of the NPCs they will either a-die laughing (good aligned) or b-kill you (evil aligned) or c-think you are simply too stupid to live and wait for someone else to kill you (neutral).

Optimizers are interesting folk with some rather novel ways to do things. It's just another form of creativity. If you're not being a jerk, then who cares? We're all here to have a few laughs and enjoy ourselves.

If you *are* being a jerk, I may have just the DMPC for you... it involves a splitting cryohydra transmogrifist with a lot of persists and a sadistic sense of humour.
I wouldn't always have to be right if so many people didn't insist on always being wrong.