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Messages - AugustusGloop

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: D&D 3.5: Review a Necromantic Cleric
« on: September 05, 2012, 01:50:36 PM »
While searching for a PRC to follow up my own very similar concept character (I'm going master of shrouds, with a true necro dip for early entry) I found this:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861446/Cleric_PrC_wfull_spellcastingturn_progression&post_num=4#338110178

Quote
As for full casting/turning PrCs: Bone Knight loses one level and you can only rebuke (even if you're good), Master of Shrouds continues rebuking (you must be any non-good to enter), Sacred Exorcist continues turning (and grants it if you don't have it), Master of Radiance from Libris Mortis continues this, Deadgrim from...Five Nations? continues it. Paragnostic Apostle or whichever one continues spellcasting also continues turning.

As for Archivist, it does not advance turn/rebuke at all.

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I think I'm going to assume the least awesome ruling for rebuking pools, one at level 6, but I'll ask the DM.  I won't be unhappy if that's all I get.  If he wants to split the pools, I'll happily assign extra turning to both pools!

Also, due to custom Gods and custom starting gold, I can't afford the Ruby Skull, nor is there a Wee Jas.  As it is, I have a philosophy based cleric in order to pick up Planning and Undeath Domains.  The DM has mentioned that there might be a bidding war for me as the existing deities find out I'm "unattached" !!!

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Gaming Advice / Re: How does Level Adjustment work?
« on: August 31, 2012, 12:39:58 PM »
It's a wonder Drow live long enough to get anything done.

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Gaming Advice / Re: How does Level Adjustment work?
« on: August 31, 2012, 11:56:09 AM »
Don't do it!  LA do indeed mean that you'll be 2 levels behind everyone else in terms of class features and hit dice, and drow are +2 LA because the designers grossly overvalued spell resistance.

Now, if you can figure out some sort of Lesser Drow (using the rules in PGtF) which has no LA, then go for it.

Everyone will be Drow, so I'll be at the same power level as the rest of them.

Though, since you mentioned this is specifically a drow game, my hunch is that the DM will waive the +2 LA for everyone.  Does not make much sense to use LA when everyone in the group is the same race / power level.

This is a definite possibility, but I wanted to have two versions of the character ready to go.

So essentially the only change I make is in a 5th level game, I create a 3rd level character with a heck of a long way to go to 4th.  At ECL 6th, I can buy down my LA, right?  Or do I need to be 6+2LA=ECL 8?

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Gaming Advice / How does Level Adjustment work?
« on: August 31, 2012, 11:14:32 AM »
I'm creating a Drow Spellthief for a FR Drow game, and although the character generation rules aren't decided on, I wanted to get jump on building.  Drow are +2 LA, according to the sourcebook, which I understand to mean that they don't get class levels for the first two HD of their lives.  What does this mean in a practical way?  How do I adjust their skill points/hp/xp etc?  Can you point me at a guide?

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Seriously, you can reflavor your material component pouch as worry stones or the like; you don't need Eschew Material Components.

You'll need some kind of code between you and the DM; you know, so you can tell him what you are casting.

Or take ranks in profession: Apothecary, so spending time in shops selling eye of newt and wing of bat looks totally plausable.

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Well, you listed Invisible spell from Cityscape, which adds nothing to the spell level, has the prereq of another metamagic feat (eschew materials?) and the spell itself can't be seen (although its effects can).  Combine that with the skill trick conceal spellcasting, or the Beguiler ability, and you can use your high bluff to shrug and look confused just like everyone else.

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Oops, quoted instead of modified.

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Persist isn't banned, but it can't have metamagic cost reducers of any kind.  I'm guessing that means DMM won't work with it.

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A link to the myth-weavers sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=408640

Yohan the DarkMale Neutral Human Cloistered Cleric, Level 2, Init +2, HP 16/16, Speed 30
AC 12, Touch 12, Flat-footed 10, Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +5, Base Attack Bonus 1   
 (+2 Dex)
Abilities Str 11, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Condition None

The rules for generation were TOB and Psionics banned, everything else except PHB, MM, and DMG by request, no flaws or traits, one (extra) bonus feat at first level.

I tried to follow the handbook and it seems like I'm on track to enter at 4th level, after a dip into... something, to make the will save requirement.  I'm thinking of Dread Necro, but am open to suggestions.

I took Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, and Divine Metamagic, which I attached to the Extend Spell from Planning Domain, and got Extra Turning from Undeath Domain.  I traded Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion.

The DM has approved everything I have asked for, with the exception of adding a poor Fort save for Cloistered Cleric, which isn't too harsh.

I considered Tomb Tainted Soul, but it doesn't really go with the character, the DM seems flexible but leery of overly optimized characters, and I'm not sure how far I'll be able to push the paladin I think will make it into the game.

Any other suggestions or replacements for the character?  Do you find any errors?  Any ideas on making the most of my 300 gold?  :-\

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Yeah, it's a shame.  Right as I found out about Magic Aura.  I was like "JACKPOT!"  Then, "Wah-wah-wahhhh."


I considered getting rid of scribe scroll, but some downtime created scrolls of Magic Aura would save me losing two spell slots a day hiding my haversack and headband of intellect.


As to the character, he's so specialized for the game I doubt he'd do well anywhere else.  Maybe there will be an opening later, but I'm kind of mad about how the ad said there was a week left, the DM said there was a couple days left, and then that same day the people were picked.


Anyway, I've got other games to play, and I can wait to satisfy my D&D crunch craving.

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Thank you everyone who contributed to this thread! Unfortunately my app wasn't picked to be in the game. The application deadline was suddenly moved up and I didn't have time to finish. Good luck with your games, hope this good karma is paid back soon!

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If you don't have eschew materials, then you have a spell component pouch.... if you have a spell component pouch then you are an arcane caster.... 
That's absolutely true, and an amazing argument for Eschew Materials.  Extend I could pick up on a minor rod or something, although my cash is limited to 9k gold.  I'll take another look at Eschew.

This scenario just has DM fiat written all over it. I just hope you don't end up with in a situation with the DM thinking "Whelp, they've completely smashed the last 13 encounters, adn they are hidden in a basement of a building lined with lead, in a completely abandoned city block, better send in CR+5 cleric strike team to "challenge" them"
I'm not as upset about DM Fiat as most players would be.  DFRPG is almost exclusively played by fiat, although with a lot more decision making power in the players' hands, the GM still has the final say.  I am not going to worry about my character getting screwed with to improve the story.  In fact, I welcome a tough game with an engaging storyline.  The DM seems tough and willing to stick to his guns.  I find that better than one who tolerates argument about what the rules actually mean, or who sticks to the adventure as written despite finding out that it's badly mismatched to the players.  That said, I hope he doesn't tailor a team to pick off the weak link because that is probably going to be me!


On improved initiative: one of the best things a wizard can get is warning +eager enchantments on his weapon, whatever it may be.  Those enchantments may take up valuable +1 spots on a weapon that a warrior carries, but for a wizard you rarely actually use your weapon to fight things. 
together they provide a +7 bonus to initiative, that, added together with your dex and nerveskitter should get you around a +15 bonus to initiative.  Sure you can take imp initiative,  and make that a +19-20 but is it really necessary?  most monsters will have something like a +7 to initiative at that level, max, and most clerics are gonna be worse than that.  Even if they have improved init your still beating them around 70% of the time you can use a feat to make that 90% but trust us when we tell you, there are better things to do with your feats than a mere 20% bonus to initiative.
Now that's a very interesting idea.  Warning (according to the MIC) requires that the weapon be held, but I suppose I'd rarely not be holding a bow, even if an arrow isn't nocked.  Oops, except that a weapon has to be at least +2 to have Warning, and that's 8,000 (by market price, who knows how much it will be in this game?) gold, leaving me with 1000 for everything else.  Any other ideas?


As I've mentioned repeatedly, if I were going for a sniper type I wouldn't go for a Transmuter.  I'd focus on blasting and debuffing.  That's either Spellwarp Sniper or Unseen Seer, depending on whether you really want to take advantage of Spellwarping.  Or, both depending on how long the campaign goes on.  I'd say go Sorc as something like Shadow Conjuration/Invocation and Minor creation can give you huge flexibility.  Wizard + Uncanny Forethought isn't bad, either.
Buffing and debuffing are essentially equal right?  You're changing the power difference between you and the enemy, but debuffing is useless if there isn't an enemy.  Buffing can be good for all kinds of challenges.  Which isn't to say I won't be able to debuff.  There are plenty of rays and area spells that could become rays that carry damage and a debuff right?  I just prefer to focus on the buffing.

Oh, and if you want to have your cake and eat it too -- i.e., blast the hell out of people AND be subtle -- there's Invisible Spell.  Your DM has to let you ignore the Sorcerers suck at metamagic bullshit.  But, seriously, he should b/c that rule is fucking stupid.
oh god YES.  I'm seriously hoping that he allows invisible spell.  I used all my sweet talking skills and included a little sucking up.  It's from something called Cityscape though, which doesn't sound all that mainstream (is mainstream the right word?).  We'll see.

Regarding multiclassing or "dipping":  in 3.5, you don't actually need a trainer to teach you your class.  A 12th level barbarian can wake up one day, and decide "you know what's cool?  Magic.  I'm gonna take my 13th level in Wizard," and then he can jolly well do that - even though yesterday he couldn't even read.  Some people find that silly, but that's how it works.  The exceptions are Prestige Classes like Assassin or Mage of the Arcane Order that have a prerequisite that specifically says you must be a member of a certain guild, or Ur Priest, which says flat out "the character must be trained by another Ur Priest."
I guess I can see that, but I'm too far gone from D&D to be able to see it that mechanically.  There's a lot of hand waving that already goes on to represent the narrative of how your character got to be the way they are when the adventure starts, but that's one I'm going to avoid.  I like the idea of 2 classes and 1 or 2 prestige classes, and that's as far as I'm willing to go without a real compelling reason.

Early 9's means early access to 9th level spells.  He's using the Versatile Spellcaster along with Spontaneous Divination to be able to break down 2 8th level spells in order to spontaneously cast a 9th level Divination spell.  Then since Elven Generalist says you can prepare an additional spell "of the highest level you can cast", you can prepare one 9th level spell at level 15 (beyond the 9th level Divination). 
If you go for the Master Spellthief + Spellwarp Sniper idea, this would allow you to keep your spellcasting at the same level as your party mates.  Normally I would say this trick is probably too powerful for actual games, but if someone is using Incantatrix...
Yeah, I'm going to avoid this.  If he was willing to grant me back the one level of spells known I'm losing to spelltheif then ok, but I'm not going to ask.  Hopefully he'll realize that I'm actively avoiding uber.

I'm fairly certain that spellbooks were intended as a way to handicap wizards when they were first invented, but they really aren't any more.  There's a spell called Secret Page that allows you to make a spell look like a different spell.  Cast that on a random scroll you find, and then memorize any spell you want.  Don't stress out about your spellbook too much.
  Good thought.  Could it be disguised as poetry, or maybe a religious text that wasn't spells?

Seriously though, have you seen the Beguiler class from PHB2?  It sounds like exactly what you're looking for.  An abundance of subtle magic (built-in Still and Silent spell), 6+Int skill points on an Int-based caster...
I played one, and she was a ton of fun.  Enchanting feels like its going to get the beat stick though, since there are so many different ways to resist it.




So I've said it before, but thanks again to everyone for sticking with me despite my shooting down a lot of what you're suggesting.  I really appreciate the help, and I'm finding some serious gold in what you're saying.

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All valid objections, it seems like, but let me explain my reasoning.

When we fight, we will be attracting attention.  The harder we fight the more attention we attract.  It sounds strange, but while I want to be effective, I am happy to be out-shined.  I fully expect that there will be fights where someone will get crazy, fireballs will fly, and the rest of the party will have to shake their heads and move on as someone goes out in a blaze of glory.  Make no mistake though, glory = death.

In this game, no amount of power is going to defeat what will be coming at us.  Wizards are not dumb, it wouldn't have taken them long to realize what was happening when this all started.  We all know that Wizards are well equipped to push back, and if they banded together in common cause with the other arcane casters they could bring a serious amount of power to bear on the problem.  My guess is that Arcane and Divine basically being as good as each other, albeit at different things, the deciding factor was that churches are inherently organized, wizards are inherently not organized. 

It took 200 years, but the churches have all but stamped out their foes.

The combined churches have the weight of years of totalitarian authority and have had 200 years to re-write history so that the common people believe that anything other than Divinely inspired magic is evil.  We're locked in a city that hates and fears us, and thanks to the long war against Arcane, is well equipped to find and kill us.


I wanted to play a caster, and not a magically inclined warrior or rogue.  Given the realities, I'm happy to sacrifice some power for a character that is subtle, isn't completely dependent on magic to survive, and from what I hear about the campaign, I think I'm near the sweet spot in the fluff / self sufficiency / optimization venn diagram.
Also, I'm coming at the game from a slightly different direction than most of you.  For the last few years I've been playing Dresden Files RPG, which compared to D&D is one step this side of freeform.  The philosophy is that whatever build you make is going to be roughly the same power as any other build, what's important is how you imagine and use it.  In this game, imagination literally is power, since how you apply what you have is so much more important than what you have.  Power levels are less important to me than having the flexibility to attempt some really out of the box solutions.


I really appreciate the concern for my fun that's behind all the objections, but if you like you can consider me a basket case and move on, or (and I would really appreciate this!) you could accept the rough form I'm looking for, pretend it's some kind of weird optimization challenge, and have at it!

Let me approach the concerns and comments in reverse order:
[ I don't know why all the handbook writers are in love with improved init, esp when warning and eager are out there that pretty much make up for it and you have a million better feats to take.  Its not that improved init sucks, its that there's just so much better out there.  Also go conjurer ,not transmuter, for abrupt jaunt if you've got your heart set on specializing.  And btw conjuration is a better domain, but its a secret   ;)
I can see the improved initiative argument.  I agonized over it but what I kept coming back to is what happens when I'm found?  I feel like we're always going to be outnumbered, and for a low hp wizard, acting first seems like it might be the difference between locking down the fight and dying to a couple of attacks.  I plan to use the hell out of Improved Initiative + nerveskitter.  If you're inspired to show me a better way, please do!
We have a character who is going malconvoker.  He's going to take all the sweet summoning conjuration tricks and make them shine.  My plan is to be right behind him making his stuff shine brighter.  If it works, we all win.  If it doesn't work, well, they're looking at him, not me.

Also, use the Spontaneous Divination ACF. Give up your 5th level bonus feat for the ability to(Depending on interpretation) either cast ANY divination ever printed, or at least any Wizard divination(Period, doesn't need to be in your spellbook) spontaneously. It even qualifies you for Versatile Spellcaster if you want, although Uncanny Forethought also does, and you should take it. If you need to, you can use your flaw to pick up.
I almost, almost, almost went Divination.  The fluff for my character is that he actually sneaked into town years ago to begin to organize a "Resistance in Occupied France" kind of thing.  What stopped me is that I'm not sure how well I'd use divination.  Buffing and sniping is pretty straightforward, and I felt more comfortable with that.  As it is I will still have access to any divination spell I want and will gladly accept guidance about that.

Uncanny Forethought is seriously attractive, especially since I need to be flexible.  I've asked the DM if I can have it, and if yes, I'll be weighing it against Invisible Spell, or whatever else you guys suggest.

I'd go Human, with:
Wizard 1/Spellthief 1/Wizard +4/Spellwarp Sniper 1, if you're set on spellwarp sniper.
1)Spell Mastery H)Uncanny Forethought F)Extend B)Point Blank Shot(Using the UA ACF that lets you trade wizard bonus feats for fighter feats
2)Persistent Spell
3)Master Spellthief
6)Versatile Spellcaster

Elven generalist+domain wizard=early 9s. I don't think your DM will be too happy 'bout that. But, even if you don't go that route, the combo is really nice. I just don't see what it has to do with believing in Nexus.
  What does early 9's mean?  I just found out about the whole racial substitution levels yesterday.

A warlock is actually great for a starting/just getting back into the groove player.
I seriously considered it.  It's thematically appropriate, and invocations are so cool, but I've done that.  I wanted to try something different.  As for random dips into other things, I'm trying to limit how much sampling I do.  He could easily argue that Arcane users don't know each other because that invites someone to rat you out.  It would be so much harder to find someone to show you the ropes for each new thing than it would to have a few trusted friends.

Spellwarp sniper is good, but ray spells mean ray deflection (spell compendium). Also effective with warlocks but not so much with adepts.
  It's a wiz/sorc only spell, so I don't think I'll be seeing it too often, and I do have options other than rays.  Not to mention that in the group I expect to see, I won't be the one to worry about.  Are there good strategies for getting around it in case I get screwed?

With the build you're looking at, you'll have to check to see if master spellthief will be applicable, since you're not technically a caster with only one level of spellthief (I know the boards count it, but your DM is using house rules, so I'd check first)

As for spell mastery...it's good if you know your DM will take your spellbook away. That's about it. If so, take a trawl through the boards for first level spells... s/he is allowing you to pick your first spells, yes? If not, it may be a waste.
I think you might be right.  I might need to swap Master Spellthief to the 6th level slot.  Level 2 spells is the pre-req if I recall, and I wouldn't have those by level 3. 

I fully expect spellbooks to be taken, left behind in an emergency, and destroyed.  They're such an easy way to recognize and penalize wizards.  My next stop is the spell book handbook to see what I can do to ease the problem.  Magic items are going to be set at a dear price, so I don't expect to see too many of them unless we take them off the church.  Having my own metamagic options is going to be important.

I do still heartily recommend Dragonfire adept for the low maintenance, though if you're willing to jump in with a wizzy, go for it, they can be a blast for versatility. Just be careful, because those spells you get per level may be all you're seeing. A dose of collegiate wiz wouldn't hurt (bringing it to wiz1/spellthief1/wix 4/spellwarp whatever) to increase those.
I'm pretty set on having spellthief be first for the massive skillpoint boost.  If it weren't for master spellthief, I'd have gone rogue for even more skill points.  I firmly believe that being able to fall back on mundane ways of doing things is going to be key, and keep me alive.

Extend Spell is for improving the duration of long-lasting spells, so you can cast them today, rest, and get back your slots.  A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell will do just fine most the time, thereby saving you a feat.  You could go with Eschew Material Components if you were very paranoid, but it's up to you.
I thought about it, but the DM has said that material components that have no cost can just be assumed.  That kind of limits Eschew's power, and although it is STILL better, I don't think it's a feat slot better.  It would still be a gateway to those metamagics that require you to have one, but having Extend seems safer.  Especially if my stuff gets taken away.

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It probably doesn't affect them, unless there are cure spells they don't get in which case they could cast them as a spell 1 level higher.


Ok, here's my feat list.  What do you think?
lvl 1 Improved Initiative
lvl 2 (Bonus Feat per char creation rules)(Wiz lvl 1) Spell Mastery (no idea what I'll take, but in this situation WAY too good to skip)
lvl 3 Master Spellthief (bumps my arcane caster level up to my actual level)
lvl 6 (Sudden?) Extend Spell
lvl 6 (Elf Wiz Sub Lvl 5) Point Blank Shot (Qualifies me for Spellwarp)

If I take flaw, (the one flaw I'm allowed, and not one of the good ones) I would get either Invisible Spell (if allowed, perfect for this game, combined with my conceal spellcasting skill trick "What?  No, I didn't hear anything.  Someone died?") or maybe Uncanny Forethought.

Please let me know what you think.

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Oh god, major rule changes, slipped in by editing prior posts.  Try this one on:


This is important, and something I forgot to mention. Cure and Inflict spells - and those spells alone - will be available to arcane casters, but they are prepared at one level higher then a cleric normally prepares them. Furthermore, an arcane spellcaster isn't restricted by morals the same way a cleric is, and could potentially prepare both.

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Weirdly, some of my posts are disappearing from this thread.  Here's what the DM said about flaws/traits:
Quote
Flaws.... eh, they're mostly just a free feat for no penalty.[/size]
[/size]Let me put it this way. If you have a flaw, expect me to stab you in it repeatedly. [/size]I will not allowed Murky-Eyed, Feeble, Noncombatant/Shaky, Pathetic or Inattentive. None of these hurt a character enough in my opinion.One flaw, two traits.



I am going to go Transmuter, but I'm seriously thinking about the domain variant.  What do you think?

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Ok, so without some shenanigans, it'll have to be Spellthief1/Wizard5/Spellwarp1


Looks like Master Spellthief is going to be better than practiced spellcaster, and I'm not even going to try the "apply these effects in any order you choose oh look your caster level is 48!" thing.  I have to get point blank shot at 6th I think, to qualify for spellwarp.  What should my level 1 be?  Also, if I went with human and gained a bonus feat, what should that be?


That's plenty to make me happy.  Now I need to get to work doing the math, and figuring out feats and which order and oh god.

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Ok, so the wording on master spellthief goes like this:



Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells


I can take master spellthief as my 3rd level feat, does that mean that as a spellthief 1/wizard 4 I gain third level spells?  Or am I still behind on spells known, just casting spells as a 5th level wizard?

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He was firm on no Dragon Mag.  No SRD even since it's not a physical book.  If it weren't for the option to reclaim the level as an arcane caster level, I'd just go with rogue.

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