Author Topic: Discussion & Feedback  (Read 30829 times)

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2012, 05:26:20 PM »
OK, I fixed Zone of Life in all places (FitS, no need to do anything).
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2012, 12:38:37 PM »
Both versions of Ritual of Emptiness lost the link to Void Subtype, so I fixed them in the lists by tier and in the Ritualist list on the complete list thread.  They just need to be copied into the full list and onto the Ritualist page.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2012, 01:13:44 PM »
I added the hyperlink to the Ritualist page, but hilariously I can't add it to either version in the full alphabetical list because that would push past the 40k character limit.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2012, 01:19:30 PM »
I added the hyperlink to the Ritualist page, but hilariously I can't add it to either version in the full alphabetical list because that would push past the 40k character limit.

 :lol


EDIT: Technically, you could save a bunch of characters by removing all of the [/color] and [/b] tags, because the [/cell] tags end everything in front of them anyway...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 01:23:13 PM by FireInTheSky »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2012, 10:25:37 AM »
OK... so I'm going to be porting this whole goddamn mess over to GitP to go with the other stuff I've been porting, and it'll give me the chance to do a few things, like add minor rituals to RW & RE, and generally proofread & edit the text.

I have two questions:

1) Garryl, I assume you're okay with me posting Bloodscarred Berserker to keep everything together?  You'll get credit, of course ;)

2) I've been wanting for a while now to change some of the terminology.  The whole idea of "casting" rituals and having a "caster level" is confusing, tying it too closely to spellcasters.  Right now I'm dithering over a bunch of options... scribing, chanting, assaying, forming, forging, sculpting, composing, sparking, devising, formulating, shaping, tracing.  Help...?  :bigeyes


For the moment, I'm going with "trace", but we'll see if anything we can think of is better.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 10:39:14 AM by sirpercival »
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2012, 11:01:15 AM »
This is your baby SirP. As far as I remember, I'm only at mod level involvement because I gave you so damn many ritual ideas.

Terminology mad lib!
___Verb___ a ritual to have it ___Adjective___, and then ___Verb___ it later on. Its effects are dependent on your ___Noun___ level.
Currently: Cast a ritual to have it charged, and then discharge it later on. Its effects are dependent on your caster level.

"Enact" or "perform" a ritual to have it ", then "release" it later on? I haven't been happy with the "discharge" term either since discharge already has an existing meaning in regards to spells and many other effects.
"Invoke" could work in place of discharge, but for the fact that invokers have invocations already so the terminology is too close (even though they don't technically invoke invocations).

Speaking of terminology and cleaning things up. We should look at how the whole ritual slots thing works, exactly, especially since there are two types now (one for minors, one for everything else), and metaritual feats that further modify how they work.

Other notes:
- It's been a while since I did more than skim any of this, so some of these issues may be fixed already or exist only in my muddled memory.
- Ensure there is an "all about ritual magic" post or two that outlines the common points of the entire system.
- Text relating to save DCs. I think it still refers to "flavors" of rituals in a few places. We should have one consistent term for the power level of a ritual. I suggest "grade", like invocations.
- Concentration, dispelling, and the like. Rituals aren't spells, so they don't have spell levels. They're supernatural abilities, right?

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2012, 11:49:14 PM »
SirP, if you want, you could ask Prime to add me as a mod, and then whatever you decide on in terminology of terms, I can help propagate through the various threads.  And adjust rituals/lists when necessary.


EDIT:
Also, my vote goes to... well, I was going to say this:
Quote
Enact a ritual to have it primed / loaded, and then enact it later on.  Its effects are dependent on your Enacter level.
but it really doesn't flow well.  I actually like trace, except for the fact that you also chant...  How about Chanter?

Quote
Chant a ritual to have it primed and then release is later on?  Its effects are dependent on your Chanter level.
That has a pretty nice ring to it.  It has the same problem as trace, though.  And people might get it confused with "Enchanter."  Maybe trace, prime, and release?  And get rid of the chanting part?  Or swap it so that you only chant, with no symbols?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 12:03:40 AM by FireInTheSky »

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #67 on: October 04, 2012, 09:24:06 PM »
If you want the opinion of the proverbial D&D player on the street, I like "trace."

Also: Would it break anything to have the "[verb] [level] ritual" feats allow access to class list rituals as well as general?

Or maybe add an alternative feat line with stricter prereqs.

I'm building a ritual user of some sort for High Arcana and there's a couple things I've run into that makes me ask this:

The Ritual Expert requires "ability to cast a minor ritual" which can be gained from the feat. But then the expert learns all general rituals so the feat becomes useless. I guess it can be retrained now that the class fulfils its own prereq but that still makes me feel like I'm spending a feat on essentially nothing.

The other thing is that I've often been wishing there was an "advanced learning" type feat to let ritual users to learn otherwise inaccessible rituals (specifically, I want ritual expert to be able to access circle of good hope but it's a general desire as well.)

Also regarding Ritual Expert: is it intentional for its [verber] level to lag behind the base classes to the degree it does? If so, is there room for a "Practiced [Verber]" feat to offset this?

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2012, 06:30:13 PM »
If you want the opinion of the proverbial D&D player on the street, I like "trace."
Yes, I decided to go with that when I ported over to gitp.  I have to back-propagate the updates to this board... but I have to admit it's a relatively low priority... :(

Quote
Also: Would it break anything to have the "[verb] [level] ritual" feats allow access to class list rituals as well as general?
Hm... Probably not.

Quote
Or maybe add an alternative feat line with stricter prereqs.
This isn't a bad idea -- actually it's easy, just require being able to cast a general one.

Quote
I'm building a ritual user of some sort for High Arcana and there's a couple things I've run into that makes me ask this:

The Ritual Expert requires "ability to cast a minor ritual" which can be gained from the feat. But then the expert learns all general rituals so the feat becomes useless. I guess it can be retrained now that the class fulfils its own prereq but that still makes me feel like I'm spending a feat on essentially nothing.
Well, not exactly.  You can charge the one you get from the feat 1/day separate from the class stuff.  So it's an extra charge 1/day.  Still, you can definitely retrain later if you want.

Quote
The other thing is that I've often been wishing there was an "advanced learning" type feat to let ritual users to learn otherwise inaccessible rituals (specifically, I want ritual expert to be able to access circle of good hope but it's a general desire as well.)
The above feat suggestion might help with that.

Quote
Also regarding Ritual Expert: is it intentional for its [verber] level to lag behind the base classes to the degree it does? If so, is there room for a "Practiced [Verber]" feat to offset this?
Well, a lot of separate-progression spellcasting classes have similar CLs... but I can add a Practiced Tracer feat, definitely.
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2012, 06:49:52 PM »
Thanks very much for those responses.

Quote from: sirpercival
Well, a lot of separate-progression spellcasting classes have similar CLs... but I can add a Practiced Tracer feat, definitely.

With casting classes you can often make up for a poor CL by choosing to cast spells that have minute/CL or longer durations or fixed durations. That isn't an option for a ritual class since there are no rituals with longer than round/CL duration (that I've noticed so far, at least.) A Practiced Tracer feat helps out with that, though.

I also have another question: The ritual incense description suggests that the user does not need to meet any prerequisites or roll any checks in order to use the item.

Is that the case?

Incenses and Candles seem like they would need to be lit to function but I haven't found that listed anywhere in the description.

Also, what sort of creatures can use these items? Could, for example, a Druid's Animal Companion? A Familiar? An animated zombie? An Unseen Servant?

Would the answers to the above be different for Candles as opposed to Incenses, since an Incense places the Ritual in your mind (meaning you have to have one, meaning no Unseen Servant or Constructs or Undead) whereas a Candle activates it on a given square?

On an unrelated topic, I notice there is no "Extend Ritual" metaritual feat. Is this intentional or could such a feat be created?

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2012, 07:27:08 PM »
Thanks very much for those responses.
Sure!

Quote
Quote from: sirpercival
Well, a lot of separate-progression spellcasting classes have similar CLs... but I can add a Practiced Tracer feat, definitely.

With casting classes you can often make up for a poor CL by choosing to cast spells that have minute/CL or longer durations or fixed durations. That isn't an option for a ritual class since there are no rituals with longer than round/CL duration (that I've noticed so far, at least.) A Practiced Tracer feat helps out with that, though.
Fair enough.

Quote
I also have another question: The ritual incense description suggests that the user does not need to meet any prerequisites or roll any checks in order to use the item.

Is that the case?
Correct.  It's like a potion.

Quote
Incenses and Candles seem like they would need to be lit to function but I haven't found that listed anywhere in the description.
I mean, kinda.  But that's flavor and not mechanics.

Quote
Also, what sort of creatures can use these items? Could, for example, a Druid's Animal Companion? A Familiar? An animated zombie? An Unseen Servant?

Would the answers to the above be different for Candles as opposed to Incenses, since an Incense places the Ritual in your mind (meaning you have to have one, meaning no Unseen Servant or Constructs or Undead) whereas a Candle activates it on a given square?
Incenses can only be used by creatures which are capable of making efforts of will -- Int 3 or higher -- since you have to be able to discharge the ritual.  Candles could theoretically be used by any creature capable of activating them.

Quote
On an unrelated topic, I notice there is no "Extend Ritual" metaritual feat. Is this intentional or could such a feat be created?
It's... neither intentional nor unintentional.  I considered making one, but then a lot of the classes get abilities which extend the durations... I think it's okay to include one though.
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2012, 01:21:48 AM »
Quote from: sirpercival
I mean, kinda.  But that's flavor and not mechanics.

So you're not going to worry about whether we're lighting them with a tindertwig vs flint and steel vs a sparker vs a swift torch vs a flaming weapon or whatever?

Quote from: sirpercival
Incenses can only be used by creatures which are capable of making efforts of will -- Int 3 or higher -- since you have to be able to discharge the ritual.  Candles could theoretically be used by any creature capable of activating them.

Cool. That first part could actually matter depending on Oslecamo's response to the Kaorti Thrall/Psuedonatural Template issue.

And a Candle being usable by an Unseen Servant may be nice for some of the damaging and negative effect AoE rituals.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 06:08:09 PM by Concerned Ninja Citizen »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2012, 01:51:49 PM »
Might want to rework the Charged weapon property. It's only useful (instead of just getting the +3 enhancement bonus straight out) when you have it on a +1 weapon and have at least 20 rituals charged. More rituals add nothing, because the enhancement bonus is capped at +5, and a higher base enhancement bonus limits the property's effects lower, preventing it from ever granting more than what it costs to get.

Edit: Charged armor property is only +2, so it has a little leeway.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 01:53:22 PM by Garryl »

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2012, 06:02:14 PM »
 Can you Quicken a ritual that is modified by another metaritual feat? If so, does Quicken override the "takes extra an minute/minutes to trace" aspect of other metaritual feats?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 06:07:53 PM by Concerned Ninja Citizen »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2012, 04:17:56 PM »
Might want to rework the Charged weapon property. It's only useful (instead of just getting the +3 enhancement bonus straight out) when you have it on a +1 weapon and have at least 20 rituals charged. More rituals add nothing, because the enhancement bonus is capped at +5, and a higher base enhancement bonus limits the property's effects lower, preventing it from ever granting more than what it costs to get.

Edit: Charged armor property is only +2, so it has a little leeway.
Hm.  Yeah, maybe I should drop it to +2.

Can you Quicken a ritual that is modified by another metaritual feat? If so, does Quicken override the "takes extra an minute/minutes to trace" aspect of other metaritual feats?
Yes, and yes.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #75 on: November 30, 2012, 03:51:18 PM »
I'm sure you answered this a while ago, but I don't remember the answer and i didn't see anything in the Ritualist section:  Can you end your own Rituals early (in the same way that a wizard or sorcerer can)?  If so, can you put something to that effect in all of the Ritual Tracing sections?

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2012, 11:16:55 AM »
Yes, I think so.  Not those from the improved incenses (aka candles), though.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2013, 11:03:15 AM »
Ok FitS, you're on as mod if you want to update stuff as per GitP.  :)
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #78 on: May 28, 2013, 08:54:47 PM »
Added pics to the 4 base classes.  I'm especially proud of the Glyphwalker, but all are awesome.  Most of them are from Agita's Stuff, so thanks there!
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2013, 10:14:08 PM »
Nice pics. They evoke the feel of the classes pretty well (well, one possible feel, at least; good ol' mutable fluff). The Witchblood and Bloodfire Seeker pics look a bit similar, though, due to having the same color scheme and the same "rain of fire" background.

I've been thinking about how the ritual classes work at low levels with respect to minor rituals. I don't like how it plays out, at least in the Ritualist's case (I haven't looked at the other classes in as much depth).
- Your ritual tracing ability is exactly the same from 1st through 3rd level. You get 0-5 rituals at a time based entirely on your Int score, hyper-inflating its value.
- Your ritual tracing ability at 1st through 3rd is entirely dependent on your Int score, but after that you don't need Int at all except for save DCs.
- The very short tracing time of minor rituals means that your charged rituals are essentially per encounter with minors. Higher level rituals have dramatically higher tracing times, meaning that they are almost daily (barring Quicken Ritual). Since you rely solely on minor rituals at 1st through 3rd, yet primarily on least and higher grade rituals at 8th and up, you have a pretty significant paradigm shift over the course of several levels.
- Share Ritual is kinda outdone by the Circle of Good Hope rituals except in duo situations.
- No secondary class feature at any levels. All you have is ritual tracing and a martial weapon to fall back on when you're out.
- 4th level is way too important, both opening up your first taste of "real" rituals and doubling the number of rituals you have available.