Author Topic: Immunities and saving throws  (Read 1761 times)

Offline snakeman830

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Immunities and saving throws
« on: May 10, 2017, 11:16:27 PM »
I've come across a weird case where this actually matters, so I was wondering if a creature immune to a particular kind of effect is allowed to make a saving throw against it?

The item in question is the Magic-Eating armor quality from MIC.  It states that whenever you succeed on a saving throw against a spell that targets you, you heal hit points equal to the spell's level.

Now, let's say this quality is on a Warforged Juggernaut.  If a friendly Cleric included him in a Mass Cure Light Wounds spell, would he be able to make his saving throw and gain at least a few health, even if the spell has no effect on him if he fails his saving throw?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Immunities and saving throws
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 01:09:14 AM »
Originally you could, the FAQ even had an entry saying Burst WSA worked on Crit-Immune. But at some point Damage Reduction got an update, for easy reference check the RC's entry which includes the paragraph about negating entire effects compared to the original MM1 entry which said nothing of the sort. And in response to this, the FAQ got an updated entry that also followed the concept. Here it is.
Quote from: FAQ54
The flaming burst, icy burst, and shocking burst weapon powers require a critical hit to trigger the burst. What happens when you attack a foe that isn’t subject to critical hits? What happens if your critical hit is negated by fortification?
In either case, the burst effect doesn’t occur. If an effect is negated, it is invalidated, prevented, or ended with respect to a designated area or target. That’s true whether the negation is automatic (such as from immunity) or contingent upon a roll or check (fortification).

If another effect is contingent on the success of a root effect (like, say, any of the burst weapons in the DMG, which are triggered on a successful critical hit), and the root effect is negated, the contingent effect is also negated. In the case of these burst weapons, if the critical hit is negated so is the burst weapon’s critical-dependant effect, since it is triggered on a “successful critical hit” (DMG 224 Flaming Burst entry and DMG 225 Icy Burst and Shocking Burst entries).

There are exceptions to this rule, but they are called out specifically in the effect’s description. For example, some weapon properties in the MIC state “this effect activates even if the target is not normally vulnerable [or subject to] to extra damage from critical hits.” In these cases you would roll to confirm a critical hit, and with a successful critical confirmation you would apply the damage or effect for the special effect, though you would not add the extra weapon damage for the critical hit.

Here’s an example of how this works: If a fighter with an 18 Strength with a +1 desiccating burst greatsword (MIC 32) rolled a natural 19 on an attack against a water elemental (and hit the elemental), you would roll to confirm the critical, even though water elementals are immune to critical hits. On a confirmed critical, the weapon does 2d6+7 plus 3d8 points of damage from the desiccating property to the water elemental. Note: This FAQ entry is a correction of an older FAQ entry that allowed all of these types of weapons to burst even if the target was immune to critical hits or the critical hit was negated in some other way.
So by being immune to Mass Cure Light Wounds the optional Save is completely negated and never rolled. Since Magic Eating requires a successful Save, it can't trigger.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Immunities and saving throws
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 04:19:04 AM »
That FAQ actually shows that crit immunity prevents a crit-proc item, SorO, which is quite logical. I'm not sure that immunity to an effect prevents a save-proc regarding that effect, as the proc happens after the save, rather than after the effect.

snakeman's question seems to be "When is immunity checked, before or after the saving throw?"
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Offline ketaro

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Re: Immunities and saving throws
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 04:39:23 AM »
Basically like SR does then.

Do you still roll a save after a spell fails to overcome your SR? No, because your immunity was checked before the save is rolled.

Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Immunities and saving throws
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2017, 07:01:32 AM »
Yeah, seems like the crucial line is in that FAQ answer:

Quote
If an effect is negated, it is invalidated, prevented, or ended with respect to a designated area or target. That’s true whether the negation is automatic (such as from immunity)...

In the case of the spell and Magic-Eating, the immunity to healing negates the spell before the effect could touch Magic-Eating.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Immunities and saving throws
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2017, 12:18:43 AM »
The RAWs pretty clear, but it wouldn't hurt anything for your DM to allow it anyway. Healing isn't exactly OP in 3e.