Author Topic: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?  (Read 7599 times)

Offline Endarire

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What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« on: November 23, 2011, 03:43:49 AM »
Normally, people I play with quit after 6 sessions.  Ignoring campaigns I GMed, the highest level long-running campaign had me at level 10.  (Woulda been 11 if I didn't die.)

I've played two epic games that didn't last long.  (One lasted only a session!)  I've DMed a campaign from level 1 to 21.

Yet, most often, campaigns peter out about level 6, and no more than 10.

I'm well aware that base classes normally have 20 levels.  I'm also saddened that so few people ever reach double digit levels.  I know that accounting for groups that teleport and plane shift and scry (and more!) on a whim is difficult, but doable.

Since so few people reach the double-digit levels, what then is the practical level limit for 3.5?  Is it 6 like in E6?  Is it 8?  Is it otherwise?

Offline littha

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 03:50:52 AM »
Practical limit is probably 20, epic goes from bizzare to stupid...

The basic problem with upper levels is that it requires a really good DM to come up with challenges for high level PCs, it takes a lot of work and not many DMs will contribute the time for that.

Offline SneeR

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 04:12:56 AM »
Level 14+ is when things start falling apart for mundanes irrevocably. Comptetent casters can obviously play all the way as far as you want.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:17:16 AM by SneeR »
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Offline JaronK

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 04:26:34 AM »
Surveys I've seen on the topic indicate the lower levels are most common, and there's a severe drop off in the level 10-13 range.  Basically, very few people actually play for long in the double digits.

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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 05:57:08 AM »
Level 10 is my prime area of focus, and not just because it's the half way mark. But most of my characters "died" there for a replacement, so I have more level 10 builds compiled than I do level 20s. Part of that Min I preach right? If you won't go past level 10 (or even get to it), why spend the time detailing the build past that?

Offline littha

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 06:03:19 AM »
Level 10 is my prime area of focus, and not just because it's the half way mark. But most of my characters "died" there for a replacement, so I have more level 10 builds compiled than I do level 20s. Part of that Min I preach right? If you won't go past level 10 (or even get to it), why spend the time detailing the build past that?

Unless I am doing something incredibly difficult I tend not to build my characters more than a level or two past their start point. As such I have an awful lot of level 5-6 builds and only a couple of level 20 builds.

Offline SolEiji

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 07:48:25 AM »
Most games don't get to 20, but I've managed up to 25.  Basically things start crazy at 20th and proceed to unplayable the higher you go.  Of course, I run a bevvy of houserules concerning epic, and heavy homebrew.  WotC doesn't have enough high level material to do it on your own, you basically MUST get to homebrew.
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Offline veekie

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2011, 10:27:19 AM »
Most games I've been in seem to do best from 3rd to 10th level or so, they are the ones that usually last extended periods. Above that, there were a few mid-duration games, but they all relied on voluntary self-restriction, with melee intentionally avoiding 1-rounding enemies, and casters focused on battle and interesting oddball spells instead of campaign solvers.

Theres a bit of an anomaly though, in that the longest game I was in was a PbP that spanned nearly three years. At level 30.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2011, 10:37:58 AM »
Up to 13 is not generally too silly, and a good DM can usually hold it together through about level 16.  Above that, "good DM" isn't good enough, and needs to be "great".
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2011, 10:59:43 AM »
For casters at least, at level 17-18, you're God. You can take any form you want, create a world from nothing, create a permanent living breathing being from dirt with two actions, create a second permanent living breathing being from a piece of the first living being, and quite a few other things. At this point, it might be more rewarding to retire to a world of your own creation.

For casters at level 21 actually using epic spellcasting rules ... you're the DM. After reaching a bit past this, as their last pursuit before retirement, I literally did hand the reins to the epic spellcaster in the party (there were two but one didn't bother with epic spells), who built an arena for epic warriors out of those spells where they could fight each other without risking these extremely valuable lives.

8-13 are our preferred levels pretty much, though.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 11:04:27 AM »
Surveys I've seen on the topic indicate the lower levels are most common, and there's a severe drop off in the level 10-13 range.  Basically, very few people actually play for long in the double digits.

JaronK
My anecdotal evidence is close to this. I've never run a game past 15th level. I've only played in a couple that got to 12th+. I've played in a solo game that went up to 17th (leveled but didn't play at 17th). The majority of games end at or before 10th in my experience.

Back in 2E, this was more pronounced. 7th seemed to be the cap for everything I've ever played in or ran.
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Offline veekie

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2011, 11:45:05 AM »
Well, in said level 30 game, I actually had a mythal abusing ur-theurge on the same party as a dragon frenzied berserker and straight out monk. It worked out mostly because the T1s liked to hold everything in reserve, keeping the uber stuff in reserve for when nothing else works.
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Offline zugschef

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2011, 11:52:58 AM »
i've played in a campaign which lasted for 4 years and went from level 1 up to level 20. when we wanted to enter epic our dm was overwhelmed and the group split up.^^

Offline Ryu Hayabusa

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 12:02:07 PM »
Normally, people I play with quit after 6 sessions.  Ignoring campaigns I GMed, the highest level long-running campaign had me at level 10.  (Woulda been 11 if I didn't die.)

I've played two epic games that didn't last long.  (One lasted only a session!)  I've DMed a campaign from level 1 to 21.

Yet, most often, campaigns peter out about level 6, and no more than 10.

Since so few people reach the double-digit levels, what then is the practical level limit for 3.5?  Is it 6 like in E6?  Is it 8?  Is it otherwise?

For most games I find level 10-15 to be the practical limit. Past that requires houserules and care. It certainly can be done - I've ran games to level 25 without problems - but it requires work, effort, a good DM and great PCs. Also the epic spell rules need to go die or at least be made sane.

Quote
I'm well aware that base classes normally have 20 levels.  I'm also saddened that so few people ever reach double digit levels.  I know that accounting for groups that teleport and plane shift and scry (and more!) on a whim is difficult, but doable.

It's not that hard, honestly.  The big offenders like scry'n'die, even if not houseruled, stop being effective later on. Bad guys take steps to counter-act these spells from working. Research the counter-measures, and if those aren't to your taste, make something up. You're the DM.

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2011, 12:08:47 PM »
Most games I've been in petered out by level 10 or a little sooner. My games vary a lot, most of the time they ended just because I couldn't hold the group together any more due to player issues. The best I had went from level 1 to about 24-25. It was a good game that had a very long term goal of defeating a cr 30+. The players decided that they were happy with their characters and didn't want to continue at the point of ending the game so we just wrapped it up with some hand waving.

Offline veekie

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 12:37:29 PM »
The higher you go, its really up to everyone exercising restraint on all sides. Some more so than others.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline JaronK

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 01:55:57 PM »
It's not that hard, honestly.  The big offenders like scry'n'die, even if not houseruled, stop being effective later on. Bad guys take steps to counter-act these spells from working. Research the counter-measures, and if those aren't to your taste, make something up. You're the DM.

Eh, at low levels that works, but at high levels I find there's just too many things you have to defend against and have counter measures against.  It becomes more like strategic accounting than heroic fantasy.

JaronK

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 04:34:19 PM »
The low-est level or 2, is bad.
4e's lowest levels have this same problem.
It's easy enough to give everybody a free 10 or 20 "levels" that don't do much.
Course that requires a complete redesign, too.

E6 makes clear the distinction between:
Casters with >4th level spells and everybody else.
Provided that can be handled, you still get to what veekie and jaronk just said.


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Clearly people were playing at the highest levels ... enjoying it ...
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Offline Endarire

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 07:35:25 PM »
Once you hit level 7 spells and powers, what adventures are plausible and fun without a lot of restraint on both sides?

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: What's the practical level limit of 3.5?
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 08:24:22 PM »
At those levels either custom encounters or adjust monster CR to the party's strength.
Hmm.