Author Topic: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]  (Read 18953 times)

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2020, 11:13:43 AM »
I honestly don't know how I feel about Flexible Learner from a balance perspective.  That might be because I woke up half an hour ago.

I don't understand the point of Narrow Focus, especially with it lasting an entire level.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2020, 12:17:36 PM »
I honestly don't know how I feel about Flexible Learner from a balance perspective.  That might be because I woke up half an hour ago.

Not sure how it breaks anything to be able to change your spells once per level rather than once every 4. I only made it so you could do it any time (instead of only on level-up) because that seems helpful in niche circumstances and it felt too underpowered otherwise. But I'm pretty neutral about it.

I don't understand the point of Narrow Focus, especially with it lasting an entire level.

So, maybe I should make it more clear. You're removing idea slots from your deck composition, not individual ideas. Meaning, if your deck has a composition like 2/5/5/4, you could change it to 1/4/5/4, for instance, or even 1/4/4/4. Now your deck has fewer low-level ideas, so you draw your higher-level ideas more often. Each level, your deck composition changes, and you get to change which levels of ideas have their quantity reduced by 1, if you want.

Does that make sense? Is there a better way to phrase the feat description?

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2020, 02:22:00 PM »
I understand what Narrow Focus does, I just don't understand why I would ever want to use it.  I guess I'll just have to look at the ideas and realize that the low level ones are apparently always terrible and unwanted.   :p

Flexible Learner doesn't break anything, but it is a massive upgrade for spontaneous casters that don't have fixed lists.  I see no reason why I would ever not take it as a Sorcerer which makes me feel like it is too good.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2020, 06:35:08 PM »
Nah, the lower-level ideas are fine. But the issue with them taking up space in a deck is that you're potentially drawing them instead of something better. It's a very real advantage to be able to clear lower-level ideas from your deck.

As for Flexible Learner, I'm not sure what's so massive about it. If you pick spells you end up using and never feel the need to swap them out, this feat is useless to you. I've played spontaneous casters before, and I didn't ever feel super strongly that my spells known needed to be tweaked faster than once every 4 levels. Certainly not strong enough that I'd ever spend a feat slot on this.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2020, 07:28:17 PM »
Flexible Learner means that a spontaneous caster can take focused or extremely situational spells, a thing that they traditionally never do because they're a waste of spell choices. 

I don't know how you normally play spontaneous casters but in my experience they normally know the most broadly applicable spells possible and leave the situational stuff to wizards or consumable magic items.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2020, 05:51:57 AM »
Flexible Learner means that a spontaneous caster can take focused or extremely situational spells, a thing that they traditionally never do because they're a waste of spell choices. 

I don't know how you normally play spontaneous casters but in my experience they normally know the most broadly applicable spells possible and leave the situational stuff to wizards or consumable magic items.

Well, you still only get to change one spell known per level, so you're taking at most one extremely situational spell. And even then, it would have to be applicable enough that you get mileage out of it for every encounter until you level up again, so it's not even that situational either. Are you sure you're reading this correctly? It seems like we're talking about two completely different feats here.

(I also went back and changed the wording of Narrow Focus. Hopefully if there was any confusion there, it's cleared up)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 06:02:30 AM by TheGeometer »

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2020, 10:33:35 AM »
On Flexible Learner, I either missed the last line or you stealth edited it.  I'd never take the feat now, it's not too powerful.  :P

I get Narrow Focus after your earlier explanation.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2020, 11:16:55 AM »
On Flexible Learner, I either missed the last line or you stealth edited it.  I'd never take the feat now, it's not too powerful.  :P

I did stealth-edit it, just a little. The original wording of the last line was something like, "Once a spell/power/idea known has been changed, you may not make another such change again until the next time you gain a level in the class". But when I looked back on it, I realized people might think you were allowed to change each spell once per level, rather than 1 spell per level total.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 02:27:53 PM by TheGeometer »

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2020, 09:19:15 PM »
Done with feats/ready for ideas?

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2020, 05:40:23 AM »
Done with feats/ready for ideas?

Heck yeah :)

I recommend that you read the class lists first rather than just wading through the idea list. They all have the same 0th-level ideas, but they diverge a lot starting at level 1. The paragraph just above "MAKING A __" for each class also summarizes how each class's ideas encourage a different play style.

Some stuff to keep in mind:

  • Thinkers have an IP/idea limit given on their tables (it's just 1 per 4 levels, rounded up). So you can't augment things at all until level 5, can't augment by 2 until level 9, etc. These are going to seem super broken if you forget that.
  • Thinkers can express outside of combat roughly TL/2 times per day (it's a bit hazy because they can convert some uses into combat uses, but it's a good rule of thumb). So at low levels, it's very limited, while at higher levels it's nearly at will.
  • Synergy between ideas is very much a thing, especially for the Strategist. Some blue ideas combo with each other really nicely, and that's all intentional.
  • Remember that all of these ideas are being dealt randomly. Occasionally, you'll just have a dead turn because there are no ideas in your hand that are helpful, and in D&D that's a huge weakness. You won't always have Extend Idea together with something you'd like to extend, etc. That kind of randomness is balanced by most of these effects being move actions, and from my light playtesting it seems that having an Nth-level ability be as strong as an Nth-level Sor/Wiz spell is about right.

Thanks again for helping me with this!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 06:33:14 AM by TheGeometer »

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2020, 08:11:43 PM »
I'm just going to wade through them willy-nilly because I'm super lazy and mainly just want to make sure that things are balanced for their level and make sense.   :P

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2020, 08:46:21 PM »
Level 0

All good.


Level 1

Is Swift Action vs Free really worth an extra IP for taking up an action slot?  You don't have a whole lot of uses for swift actions at low levels so I feel like that one would be the default to take.

Elemental Knowledge (Water) feels underwhelming.


Level 2

Ingenious Machine - does the turret get strength to damage too?

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2020, 06:19:27 AM »
Is Swift Action vs Free really worth an extra IP for taking up an action slot?  You don't have a whole lot of uses for swift actions at low levels so I feel like that one would be the default to take.

Keep in mind that you can't augment at all until level 5, and you get 1 IP at the start of your turn. Meaning that until level 5, you'll never need more than 1 bonus IP per turn for that second move-action idea - so Insight and Swift Meditation are equivalent up until then (making Insight the default). And by level 5, you might have an Amulet of Tears or Anklets of Translocation or something, and anyway it sucks if you draw 2 of them and can only use 1. So there are minor drawbacks there.

I'm leaning toward either nerfing it to 1d2 IP or keeping it as-is, but I'd need to playtest to make up my mind on it. The main point is to give players the option of having lots of IP if they want it (with the tradeoff that they'll draw fewer ideas that actually do something). I'd like for the number of IP-generating cards in a deck composition to be up to playstyle, rather than there always being a specific optimal choice.

Elemental Knowledge (Water) feels underwhelming.

I changed it to 1d6, Ref half. That also helps differentiate it from Earth damage. It was only 0.5 less damage than Earth per die, but yeah, it was kinda underwhelming.

Ingenious Machine - does the turret get strength to damage too?

It does. I edited the text to make that more explicit.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2020, 06:48:17 PM »
Meditation, Swift is standing out to me more after some digging because it is the only swift action IP granting idea out of all of the ideas at any level.

Level 3 Ideas

Being and Time - What happens if you reduce someone's level to 0, effectively de-aging them to before they were born?  Making it similar to the "dying of old age" language would make sense from a mechanical perspective.


Level 4

Epiphany - If it's at the bottom of your deck and you draw and use it before reshuffling your deck does it become the only card in your deck?

Making a Call - I don't know how I feel about this one.  It feels super meta.

Recreate from Memory also feels meta and super annoying to track.

Tunnel Vision is blocked by metal so now I want to use it to help with mining.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2020, 08:21:07 AM »
Meditation, Swift is standing out to me more after some digging because it is the only swift action IP granting idea out of all of the ideas at any level.

Yeah, that's intentional. Swift Meditation isn't supposed to interfere with other IP generation, only with other swift actions like items and a few spell-like ideas. I didn't mention it before, but actually the main thing it interferes with is the feat Thought on the Run. It's a significant drawback - you're giving up your ability to both move and express 2 ideas that turn. Ditto for other swift-action alternatives to TotR, like Travel Devotion.

Being and Time - What happens if you reduce someone's level to 0, effectively de-aging them to before they were born?  Making it similar to the "dying of old age" language would make sense from a mechanical perspective.

Good point. I'll add that.

Epiphany - If it's at the bottom of your deck and you draw and use it before reshuffling your deck does it become the only card in your deck?

Yup. I'll add a sentence clarifying that. Though you won't usually get the chance, since you rarely draw the last card in your deck as the last card in your hand.

This is a general rule of deck-building games: an empty deck is a valid state. You can put cards on top of it, you can shuffle it (which has no effect of course), and you can put cards on bottom of it (which is the same as on top). The only thing that causes an issue is drawing from it - that's why your discard pile gets shuffled and becomes your deck any time you need to do that.

Making a Call - I don't know how I feel about this one.  It feels super meta.

It's designed to be a tangible benefit for the Strategist knowing the order of cards in her deck. It synergizes well with Turnabout, Cogitation, Thinking Ahead, Perfect Information, and Bring to Mind. Or if you don't have any of those, it's a fun last-resort gamble.

Recreate from Memory also feels meta and super annoying to track.

You mean to track which spells you've seen before? I'll probably remove that line. DMs usually impose that kind of rule themselves anyway - for instance, restricting Polymorph forms to monsters the player knows in-character. I don't see a pressing need to require it for all campaigns.

Tunnel Vision is blocked by metal so now I want to use it to help with mining.

Not gonna find a whole lot with only a round/level duration, but sure.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 10:16:15 AM by TheGeometer »

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2020, 03:07:23 PM »
Meditation, Swift is standing out to me more after some digging because it is the only swift action IP granting idea out of all of the ideas at any level.

Yeah, that's intentional. Swift Meditation isn't supposed to interfere with other IP generation, only with other swift actions like items and a few spell-like ideas. I didn't mention it before, but actually the main thing it interferes with is the feat Thought on the Run. It's a significant drawback - you're giving up your ability to both move and express 2 ideas that turn. Ditto for other swift-action alternatives to TotR, like Travel Devotion.


It's just weird because I'd rather take higher level Free action IP generation than a level 1 Swift action IP generation. 

Quote
Epiphany - If it's at the bottom of your deck and you draw and use it before reshuffling your deck does it become the only card in your deck?

Yup. I'll add a sentence clarifying that. Though you won't usually get the chance, since you rarely draw the last card in your deck as the last card in your hand.

This is a general rule of deck-building games: an empty deck is a valid state. You can put cards on top of it, you can shuffle it (which has no effect of course), and you can put cards on bottom of it (which is the same as on top). The only thing that causes an issue is drawing from it - that's why your discard pile gets shuffled and becomes your deck any time you need to do that.

We play different deck building games.   :P

Quote
Recreate from Memory also feels meta and super annoying to track.

You mean to track which spells you've seen before? I'll probably remove that line. DMs usually impose that kind of rule themselves anyway - for instance, restricting Polymorph forms to monsters the player knows in-character. I don't see a pressing need to require it for all campaigns.


Yep, tracking which spells you've seen before sounds annoying.  I also don't play with DMs that impose those kinds of rules themselves (not that it would impact me because I don't play standard spellcasters).

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2020, 03:55:06 PM »
It's just weird because I'd rather take higher level Free action IP generation than a level 1 Swift action IP generation. 

Well, the thing is that you have to use your 1st-level idea slots for something, and at higher levels, IP generation is often better than some low-save offensive or utility effect. I'd probably say that at the moment, Swift Meditation is useful for one or two of those slots from level 5 to around level 10, while Insight is better for lower and higher levels.

But I see your point. Maybe there should be other swift-action IP generation at higher idea levels. Say, a 3rd-level idea that grants +4 IP as a swift, and a 5th-level idea that grants +6. Something like that. I dunno, I'm not convinced that's an interesting or necessary thing to do.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2020, 04:55:05 PM »
I don't know what is needed, I just know that it stands out as a completely unique phenomenon and thus feels a little weird.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2020, 07:18:40 AM »
Changed Swift Meditation to Introspection (C1, P1, S1), and added Great Introspection (C3, P3, S3) and Critical Introspection (C5, P5, S5). So now swift-action IP generation is a thing at multiple levels. Also it gives the Strategist and Philosopher IP generation at idea level 5, which they didn't have before.

And I fixed Recreate from Memory and Being and Time like we mentioned, too.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2020, 06:38:00 PM »
Sounds good.

I was going to do the level 5 and 6 ideas now but I feel bleh and can't focus.  I will do them later.